#OccupyWallstreet

[palehorse]

You don't need to travel very far for such answers.

One need only look to the Euro Zone to recognize the utter failure of socialized services, strict wage requirements, and excessive regulation on businesses... not to mention the exorbitant and ever-increasing taxes levied on Euro citizens to try and pay for said failings. (See also: California, USA)

Greece was just the beginning... grab your popcorn and pull up a seat to watch as Belgium, Spain, Portugal and others soon collapse under the weight of their failed socialized systems of government.

And, if we continue down this path toward Total Government Control, we'll be next.

So, one big "FUCK YOU" goes out to every single one of you fucktards who encourages the expansion of our Government's role in any or all of the above...

EDIT: If you need a more specific or micro place to start, please go out and study the issues caused by "wage requirements" in countries like Spain or France...

 

[FancyTurtle]

 

[dwell]

^ I honestly think that's my college roomate. Not kidding either.

 

[Jhhnn]

You don't need to travel very far for such answers.

One need only look to the Euro Zone to recognize the utter failure of socialized services, strict wage requirements, and excessive regulation on businesses... not to mention the exorbitant and ever-increasing taxes levied on Euro citizens to try and pay for said failings. (See also: California, USA)

Greece was just the beginning... grab your popcorn and pull up a seat to watch as Belgium, Spain, Portugal and others soon collapse under the weight of their failed socialized systems of government.

And, if we continue down this path toward Total Government Control, we'll be next.

So, one big "FUCK YOU" goes out to every single one of you fucktards who encourages the expansion of our Government's role in any or all of the above...

EDIT: If you need a more specific or micro place to start, please go out and study the issues caused by "wage requirements" in countries like Spain or France...

Total Government Control! OMG!

Like anybody is advocating that, and as if the problems in the countries you mention aren't due to more complex circumstances than you'd admit, particularly the machinations of Wall St and the European equivalents. You also forgot to mention countries like Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Austria or even Canada.

The financial problems in Iceland, Ireland and Spain don't have anything to do with socialism, anyway, but rather to do with self regulated banking in the free trade global economy. Even Greece is just as much an example of Bankers gone wild as of their socialist govt.

Shee-it, Sherlock- Our financial system would have collapsed first and hardest if we'd dealt with it the way that the Euro zone has dealt with their own. This country is where it all started, remember, with the Free Market wet dream of the Ownership Society and the notion that any risk could be mitigated with derivative hedging.

 

[Bowfinger]

Behind most of the hapless lost souls showing up in the parks to freeze and accomplish next to nothing? No.

Behind those fools' continued funding? Yes, absolutely.

The only "fantasy" here is believing that such groups don't exist, and that they're not involved.

I don't suppose you can provide links to objective, credible evidence that "anti-American" sources are "behind ... funding" the OWS movement? In particular, I'm looking for evidence showing these "anti-American" sources are a substantial source of funding (since pretty much anyone can make incidental contributions that have no material impact on direction and goals).

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't suppose you can provide links to objective, credible evidence that "anti-American" sources are "behind ... funding" the OWS movement? In particular, I'm looking for evidence showing these "anti-American" sources are a substantial source of funding (since pretty much anyone can make incidental contributions that have no material impact on direction and goals).

There ya go again- screwing up a perfectly good denialist fantasy. Sheesh.

 

[Bowfinger]

They want communism. That is VERY anti American.

It is simply a bunch of entitled spoiled rich white kids who (ironically) are living off mommy and daddies money and see they might have to put in effort in life to get what they want when their parents are no longer there/cut them off.

Drats! You figured out the secret plan. You're right, it's those filthy, evil commies behind it all. You'd better go back to hiding under your bed until they reanimate Ronnie. He'll know how to beat those evil-doers! (Pretty sure it involves tax cuts, massive debt, and empty, feel-good speeches.)

Booga, booga!

 

[Ninjahedge]

One other important thing to remember.

Opposition to one thing does not mean support of the opposite. We are not computers, we can have more than a 1-0 answer to everything.

But somehow we seem to have lost track of that and like to call anyone that would like to have a free "It hurts when I do this" preliminary doctors visit cost us $5 w/o having to pay $1200/mo to an "insurance" agency (whose operating margin is 25%-30%) a commie.

No. There are some that may want this idealization of social service, but most do not. Most want more of a hybridization of the programs that seem to work around the world, not just the one that advertises the best.

When even simple things like Education are derided, it is hard to see the logic in any other point being brought up in opposition. If one cannot even see the danger in an uneducated, unhealthy general populous, there is not much hope in getting them to see the complexity of a buffered and reasonably restrained "free trade" system that does not get us back to robber barons and utility czars.

 

[fskimospy]

You don't need to travel very far for such answers.

One need only look to the Euro Zone to recognize the utter failure of socialized services, strict wage requirements, and excessive regulation on businesses... not to mention the exorbitant and ever-increasing taxes levied on Euro citizens to try and pay for said failings. (See also: California, USA)

Greece was just the beginning... grab your popcorn and pull up a seat to watch as Belgium, Spain, Portugal and others soon collapse under the weight of their failed socialized systems of government.

And, if we continue down this path toward Total Government Control, we'll be next.

So, one big "FUCK YOU" goes out to every single one of you fucktards who encourages the expansion of our Government's role in any or all of the above...

EDIT: If you need a more specific or micro place to start, please go out and study the issues caused by "wage requirements" in countries like Spain or France...

Yeah man, that damn Eurozone and it having some of the highest standards of living in the world! You clearly have zero understanding of what is driving sovereign debt problems in the Eurozone. The Euro itself was the problem, allowing countries like Greece to piggyback on Germany's great credit rating, not some sort of 'failed socialized systems of government'. (strange how all of the most successful nations on earth have heavily socialized systems of government, isn't it?)

You seem to be getting angrier and angrier on here as you keep getting called stupid for opening your big mouth about things you don't understand. I wonder if the internet is radicalizing you as it does with so many other people.

 

[michal1980]

One other important thing to remember.

Opposition to one thing does not mean support of the opposite. We are not computers, we can have more than a 1-0 answer to everything.

But somehow we seem to have lost track of that and like to call anyone that would like to have a free "It hurts when I do this" preliminary doctors visit cost us $5 w/o having to pay $1200/mo to an "insurance" agency (whose operating margin is 25%-30%) a commie.

No. There are some that may want this idealization of social service, but most do not. Most want more of a hybridization of the programs that seem to work around the world, not just the one that advertises the best.

When even simple things like Education are derided, it is hard to see the logic in any other point being brought up in opposition. If one cannot even see the danger in an uneducated, unhealthy general populous, there is not much hope in getting them to see the complexity of a buffered and reasonably restrained "free trade" system that does not get us back to robber barons and utility czars.

Maybe if the commies didn't event huge profit margins for insurance agencies.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/how-much-money-do-insurance-companies-make-a-primer/

~4-5% profit margin.

 

[ComradeBeck]

Bill Maher rips the rabble rabble types in here a new one:

New Rule: Culturally clueless Republicans need to stop calling OWS "hippies" in 2011.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Bill Maher rips the rabble rabble types in here a new one:

New Rule: Culturally clueless Republicans need to stop calling OWS "hippies" in 2011.

lol, a comedian making puns and fun of stereotypes - just like the ones he's supposedly "ripping".

 

[fskimospy]

lol, a comedian making puns and fun of stereotypes - just like the ones he's supposedly "ripping".

It's not our fault you guys are so easy to make fun of.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

It's not our fault you guys are so easy to make fun of.

mirror

 

[orbster556]

(strange how all of the most successful nations on earth have heavily socialized systems of government, isn't it?)

Although I agree with your assessment of the causes of the Euro-Zone crisis -- to be fair, however, Greece's insolvency was an ineluctable consequence of its economic model and Germany's generosity merely delayed the day of reckoning -- I have one quibble with your observation: I think it appropriate to reference the fact that even for those nations you label 'socialized' are really free enterprise systems with socialized characteristics. Moreover, none of the most successful nations on earth have socialized systems of government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index). All the nations in the Top 15 have free enterprise systems accompanied by some degree of welfare state. The erection of the welfare state has been made by possible by two developments: a) an increasing population that has permitted a larger base to support a smaller group of beneficiaries; b) the significant productivity gains that occurred during from 1870-1930 (the productivity advantages of the last two decades have slowed rather than solve the population mismatch problem).

If you look to those nations that run continue to run truly socialistic economic systems -- wherein the state controls the means and mode of production -- the living standards are quite lower. For example, an examination of Latin American countries suggests that the recent shift in some nation's policies (e.g., Venuezula or Bolivia) towards socialism have not produced any tangible benefits. Indeed, Chile, which has embraced free markets and free trade, enjoys the highest living standards in all of Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index). Moving to the more distant past, the economic development of India and China only began in earnest when the respective governments of both those nations abandoned true socialism and embraced market reforms. To a large degree, the same can be said of Britain.

I think your effusive praise for socialism overlooks that no economic system or arrangement has done more to improve the lot of the ordinary individual more than free enterprise and trade. That modern nations, such as the United States or France, have the privilege of erecting a welfare apparatus is solely down to the productivity and improvements made by prior generations.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

mirror

Not even close. It really isn't.

 

[Jhhnn]

What you're trying to say, while putting your own slant on it, orbster, is that countries with high HDI have hybrid systems, Capitalism and Socialism blended together in a way unique to each.

Perhaps one of hte most amazing things about it all are the misperceptions held by Americans wrt the distribution of wealth in this country. It's more lopsided than we think it is, and even more lopsided than we want it to be-

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph'

One thing's for sure- we won't get there from here using a system biased too much towards capitalism. That's how we got here in the first place.

Changes in income distribution are even more profound, with the top 1% more than doubling their share to ~20% as the share of the bottom 75% fell proportionately. Trickledown never happened- growth went to the top, and stayed there. Project that trend another 30 years into the future, tell me what kind of middle class we'll have.

If nothing else, OWS has succeeded in creating a necessary discussion that really didn't exist before, and in raising the awareness of people who are willing to let that happen.

We are the 99%, and we have the right to determine the direction of our society in a democratic way, using our own ideas, not just the ideas promulgated from the top down, not just what originates in the well financed think tanks of the Right, not just what comes out of the mouths of their paid pundits & politicians.

We've done that for the last 30 years, more than less, which is how we came to where we are today, and that's not working very well for all too many of us, not working well enough that we can afford to retreat into the sloganism and catcalls of denial.

 

[PeshakJang]

The Euro itself was the problem, allowing countries like Greece to piggyback on Germany's great credit rating, not some sort of 'failed socialized systems of government'.

So you're saying, the problem was allowing less successful (less fortunate) nations to enjoy all the benefits of the more successful (more fortunate) nations, wherein the more successful nations basically financed the poor decisions of the less successful nations?

Thanks for explaining it. I'm also super glad that has no resemblance to socialism.

 

[monovillage]

We are the 99%, and we have the right to determine the direction of our society in a democratic way, using our own ideas, not just the ideas promulgated from the top down, not just what originates in the well financed think tanks of the Right, not just what comes out of the mouths of their paid pundits & politicians.

The thing you keep forgetting is that Republicans and conservatives along with independents and civil libertarians are also part of "your" 99% and we think the far/extreme left radicals are full of shit and we just don't care about your idiot ideas, what well financed left wing think tanks and NGOs promote and what crap comes out of the mouths of highly paid lefty pundits and comedians. We also care about Constitutional Rights, something most on the Left don't even bother giving lip service to anymore.

 

[Nebor]

The thing you keep forgetting is that Republicans and conservatives along with independents and civil libertarians are also part of "your" 99% and we think the far/extreme left radicals are full of shit and we just don't care about your idiot ideas, what well financed left wing think tanks and NGOs promote and what crap comes out of the mouths of highly paid lefty pundits and comedians. We also care about Constitutional Rights, something most on the Left don't even bother giving lip service to anymore.

Because it's radically outdated. We don't follow the same rules for soccer as we did 200 years ago, why on earth would we follow the same rules for government?

 

[Jhhnn]

The thing you keep forgetting is that Republicans and conservatives along with independents and civil libertarians are also part of "your" 99% and we think the far/extreme left radicals are full of shit and we just don't care about your idiot ideas, what well financed left wing think tanks and NGOs promote and what crap comes out of the mouths of highly paid lefty pundits and comedians. We also care about Constitutional Rights, something most on the Left don't even bother giving lip service to anymore.

Like I offered earlier, "raising the awareness of people who are willing to let that happen"- that's obviously not everybody, particularly not those with ideologically crippled intellectual and emotional faculties, people who operate on fear and derision. Those who've been manipulated the most are really the greatest victims.

 

[monovillage]

Because it's radically outdated. We don't follow the same rules for soccer as we did 200 years ago, why on earth would we follow the same rules for government?

A couple of reasons 1. The old rules work and 2. The new soccer rules suck
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/0...-five-points-and-you-lose-ottawa-league-says/

 

[monovillage]

Like I offered earlier, "raising the awareness of people who are willing to let that happen"- that's obviously not everybody, particularly not those with ideologically crippled intellectual and emotional faculties, people who operate on fear and derision. Those who've been manipulated the most are really the greatest victims.

So everyone that dares to disagree with you, ok got it.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Not even close. It really isn't.

You are correct...
http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2011/10/24/is-occupy-oakland-as-bad-as-they-say/?singlepage=true

 

[Patranus]

The Euro itself was the problem, allowing countries like Greece to piggyback on Germany's great credit rating, not some sort of 'failed socialized systems of government'.

Sounds like socialism between nations to me.
Taking Germany's credit and redistributing it to Greece.