#OccupyWallstreet

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orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
What you're trying to say, while putting your own slant on it, orbster, is that countries with high HDI have hybrid systems, Capitalism and Socialism blended together in a way unique to each.

No. Socialism is a system wherein the state controls the means of production and the distribution of private property. Not a single Western economy, nor the economies of China, Israel, India etc., operate a socialist government. Although the rationales for the two are sometimes similar, the creation of a social safety net is entirely different from socialistic state or economy.

One thing's for sure- we won't get there from here using a system biased too much towards capitalism. That's how we got here in the first place.

And where is here? There is not a single other period in human existence where your standard of living would be as high as it is now -- full stop. In all of recorded human history, man -- including the common man -- has never had access to cheap, plentiful food, cheap sources of power, cheap entertainment and a whole host of technologies that at once both improve the average life span while making one's time on earth more enjoyable and productive. The sad thing, really, is that you are blinded to the prosperity of this age by either ignorance or tendentiousness. You are ignorant to the sad fact that for most of recorded human history, man could not be sure that his station in life -- let alone that of his children -- would be materially improved by the time of death.

There has been no other system that has lifted so many out of grinding poverty as the free enterprise system. To the extent you even recognize the privileges afforded to all of us by the economic growth of the last 150 years, you myopically overlook the role that the free enterprise played in enabling these developments. At the same time, you are entirely oblivious to the great evils government has inflicted on its citizens -- or subjects -- even when it is supposedly acting in the best interests of those parties.

The correlation between the increase in the material well-being of so many throughout the world and the propagation of free enterprise and free trade is not some historical accident. I, for one, do not wish to return to the exiguity of the bad old days when the quality of life for individuals stagnated or, worse still, declined. Yet fueled by an arrant sense of pious self-importance, you seek to derogate the very system that has afforded you benefits and privileges unimaginable to the men of former ages.

Having become insulated from the harsh realities that have confronted man for most of his existence, and lacking any appreciation for historical context, you instead peddle trite slogans and hackneyed cavils all wrapped in a self-congratulatory package.

The common man has often been exploited -- his labor exacted for no compensation and his political allegiance coerced. Now, however, is not such an age. To claim differently, is to descend into the darkness of ignorance or sing the siren song of fatuous self-delusion.
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
And where is here? There is not a single other period in human existence where your standard of living would be as high as it is now -- full stop. In all of recorded human history, man -- including the common man -- has never had access to cheap, plentiful food, cheap sources of power, cheap entertainment and a whole host of technologies that at once both improve the average life span while making one's time on earth more enjoyable and productive. The sad thing, really, is that you are blinded to the prosperity of this age by either ignorance or tendentiousness. You are ignorant to the sad fact that for most of recorded human history, man could not be sure that his station in life -- let alone that of his children -- would be materially improved by the time of death.

There has been no other system that has lifted so many out of grinding poverty as the free enterprise system. To the extent you even recognize the privileges afforded to all of us by the economic growth of the last 150 years, you myopically overlook the role that the free enterprise played in enabling these developments. At the same time, you are entirely oblivious to the great evils government has inflicted on its citizens -- or subjects -- even when it is supposedly acting in the best interests of those parties.

The correlation between the increase in the material well-being of so many throughout the world and the propagation of free enterprise and free trade is not some historical accident. I, for one, do not wish to return to the exiguity of the bad old days when the quality of life for individuals stagnated or, worse still, declined. Yet fueled by an arrant sense of pious self-importance, you seek to derogate the very system that has afforded you benefits and privileges unimaginable to the men of former ages.

Having become insulated from the harsh realities that have confronted man for most of his existence, and lacking any appreciation for historical context, you instead peddle trite slogans and hackneyed cavils all wrapped in a self-congratulatory package.

The common man has often been exploited -- his labor exacted for no compensation and his political allegiance coerced. Now, however, is not such an age. To claim differently, is to descend into the darkness of ignorance or sing the siren song of fatuous self-delusion.

That's just it. The 99% look at the 1% and somehow think they got cheated. Just look around your house. Probably a TV in every bedroom, cell phone in everyone's pocket, MP3 players, Console Games, Mom and dad and the kids all have cars and thier own PC's. I can go on and on but 40 years ago we just didn't have that many extra toys.

Capitalism has been pretty damn good to 99% of the population.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
So everyone that dares to disagree with you, ok got it.

You're welcome to disagree. You're even welcome to put some thought into it, rather than asserting the usual rant/ chant/ mantra of people who are afraid to examine their own most cherished beliefs, who are afraid to look at themselves.

CSG links Breitbart hit piece about Oakland, probably the most radical protesters of all?

When the Reactionary Right wants to advance their own agenda, they say that "all points of view deserve to be heard". When it's the other side, and I'm actually glad to see that there is another side, they just say "STFU".

Maybe if real leftists raise their voices, then ranting righties will quit calling anybody who's not them "Leftists" and "Communists"...

Probably not, huh?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
No. Socialism is a system wherein the state controls the means of production and the distribution of private property. Not a single Western economy, nor the economies of China, Israel, India etc., operate a socialist government. Although the rationales for the two are sometimes similar, the creation of a social safety net is entirely different from socialistic state or economy.
We have a winner! I just wanted to highlight this for all the nutters who constantly -- and ignorantly -- bleat about socialism. No matter how many times Fox and your AM radio insist otherwise, Obama, UHC, Western Europe, etc., are NOT socialist.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
You're welcome to disagree. You're even welcome to put some thought into it, rather than asserting the usual rant/ chant/ mantra of people who are afraid to examine their own most cherished beliefs, who are afraid to look at themselves.

CSG links Breitbart hit piece about Oakland, probably the most radical protesters of all?

When the Reactionary Right wants to advance their own agenda, they say that "all points of view deserve to be heard". When it's the other side, and I'm actually glad to see that there is another side, they just say "STFU".

Maybe if real leftists raise their voices, then ranting righties will quit calling anybody who's not them "Leftists" and "Communists"...

Probably not, huh?

You're the one that tries to portray anyone that dares to disagree with you as some kind of monster as if we were evil, ignorant, stupid and crippled. You attempt to dehumanize anyone that disagrees with you so you can justify your extremes. In fact we're just people that have different priorities or values or opinions, not evil, just different.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
No. Socialism is a system wherein the state controls the means of production and the distribution of private property. Not a single Western economy, nor the economies of China, Israel, India etc., operate a socialist government. Although the rationales for the two are sometimes similar, the creation of a social safety net is entirely different from socialistic state or economy.

And where is here? There is not a single other period in human existence where your standard of living would be as high as it is now -- full stop. In all of recorded human history, man -- including the common man -- has never had access to cheap, plentiful food, cheap sources of power, cheap entertainment and a whole host of technologies that at once both improve the average life span while making one's time on earth more enjoyable and productive. The sad thing, really, is that you are blinded to the prosperity of this age by either ignorance or tendentiousness. You are ignorant to the sad fact that for most of recorded human history, man could not be sure that his station in life -- let alone that of his children -- would be materially improved by the time of death.

There has been no other system that has lifted so many out of grinding poverty as the free enterprise system. To the extent you even recognize the privileges afforded to all of us by the economic growth of the last 150 years, you myopically overlook the role that the free enterprise played in enabling these developments. At the same time, you are entirely oblivious to the great evils government has inflicted on its citizens -- or subjects -- even when it is supposedly acting in the best interests of those parties.

The correlation between the increase in the material well-being of so many throughout the world and the propagation of free enterprise and free trade is not some historical accident. I, for one, do not wish to return to the exiguity of the bad old days when the quality of life for individuals stagnated or, worse still, declined. Yet fueled by an arrant sense of pious self-importance, you seek to derogate the very system that has afforded you benefits and privileges unimaginable to the men of former ages.

Having become insulated from the harsh realities that have confronted man for most of his existence, and lacking any appreciation for historical context, you instead peddle trite slogans and hackneyed cavils all wrapped in a self-congratulatory package.

The common man has often been exploited -- his labor exacted for no compensation and his political allegiance coerced. Now, however, is not such an age. To claim differently, is to descend into the darkness of ignorance or sing the siren song of fatuous self-delusion.

Uhh, you need to look closely at yourself and what you just said to see trite slogans, hackneyed cavils (nice archaic terms) & fatuous self delusion. I really don't want to debate the finer points of socialism as opposed to social safety nets, other than to say that socialized medicine is more than a safety net, and that the recent bailout of Wall St et al is truly socialism, with the govt owning interest in large firms like GM, AIG and also in the banks themselves, even if that ownership was couched in different terms. Socialism bailed out capitalism, saved it from itself.

I haven't offered that capitalism has no value, at all, or discounted the fact that it's been the driving force behind much of progress. OTOH, history shows us that it needs to be tempered by the will of the people, as it was in the progressive era and again in the New Deal, both of which provided the framework of a broad middle class, not capitalism itself. Clearly, we've arrived at another such juncture, one where the natural direction of Capitalism isn't really beneficial to the vast majority. If the obvious need for the bailout didn't prove that to us, and if the ongoing instability & enormous debt in the wake of the ownership society doesn't show us that, we're willfully blind.

To be quite frank, if we can't get capitalism, particularly the financial sector, back on the oars of this country along side the rest of us relatively soon, we'll arrive at a point where truly radical solutions will be seen as the only answers, and I don't want that. Those at the top need to give a little, not a lot, even as the rest of us have been asked to sacrifice in this economic downturn. If that can't be done, then our govt will relinquish legitimacy to the corruption of wealth.

To quote Francis Bacon-

Above all things good policy is to be used so that the treasures and monies in a state be not gathered into a few hands... Money is like muck, not good except it be spread.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
To quote Francis Bacon-Above all things good policy is to be used so that the treasures and monies in a state be not gathered into a few hands... Money is like muck, not good except it be spread.



So you advocate socalism.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
/facepalm

You can lead a nutter to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

how is spreading the much around not socialism?

If you guys claim to be as smart as you are, you would know theres more then on definiation of socialism.

But its becoming obivous which side is close minded in this debate (hint its not the right you guys are so quick to label)
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
No. Are the idiot right done throwing their wealth to the rich yet?

That's the thing, the middle class shouldn't have "wealth." They have nice things, they have an enjoyable lifestyle that 90% of the world's population envies, but they shouldn't have actual wealth.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You're the one that tries to portray anyone that dares to disagree with you as some kind of monster as if we were evil, ignorant, stupid and crippled. You attempt to dehumanize anyone that disagrees with you so you can justify your extremes. In fact we're just people that have different priorities or values or opinions, not evil, just different.

My extremes? My dehumanization? I suggest you review this thread carefully, your own words and those of your fellow travelers in particular, before resorting to that.

My point is that deeply held beliefs that won't withstand self examination & introspection, particularly ones that prevent it, are not the product of the mind of the individual holding them, but rather the result of the individual accepting simulated rationality as real.

That's a fairly deep concept with enormous ramifications-

http://web.archive.org/web/20010726030451/http://www.indymedia.org/print.php3?article_id=3159

Or, per Socrates-

An unexamined life is not worth living.

Or, anything you believe in uncritically can and will be used against you by the people who convinced you to believe it in the first place.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
That's the thing, the middle class shouldn't have "wealth." They have nice things, they have an enjoyable lifestyle that 90% of the world's population envies, but they shouldn't have actual wealth.

Why not?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76

It would be improperly managed. Allowing the few at the top to manage the bulk of the wealth is better for everyone. The money that they put back into the economy by hiring, and purchasing products and services exceeds the net benefit of the catastrophe that would occur were the average American in charge of a percentage of wealth were all wealth split evenly among all Americans.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Yeah man, that damn Eurozone and it having some of the highest standards of living in the world! You clearly have zero understanding of what is driving sovereign debt problems in the Eurozone. The Euro itself was the problem, allowing countries like Greece to piggyback on Germany's great credit rating, not some sort of 'failed socialized systems of government'. (strange how all of the most successful nations on earth have heavily socialized systems of government, isn't it?)

You seem to be getting angrier and angrier on here as you keep getting called stupid for opening your big mouth about things you don't understand. I wonder if the internet is radicalizing you as it does with so many other people.
Not once did I claim that excessively socialist systems are the sole reason for their continuing collapse; but, to entirely dismiss those as large contributing factors is pure ignorance.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
how [sic] is spreading the much around not socialism?

If you guys claim to be as smart as you are, you would know theres [sic] more then [sic] on [sic] definiation [sic] of socialism.

But its [sic] becoming obivous [sic] which side is close minded [sic] in this debate (hint its [sic] not the right you guys are so quick to label)
Methinks you still don't know what socialism is. Hint: it's not what Fox and your AM radio blowhards claim it is. I know you wish it matched your partisan caricature of socialism ... but it doesn't.

Also, methinks you are not very well qualified to determine how smart someone isn't.
 
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HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
If you guys claim to be as smart as you are, you would know theres more then on definiation of socialism.

There is not more than one definition of socialism, there are degrees of it. But you can't simply take a word and use it incorrectly, however you please, and then say it has multiple definitions. Language doesn't work that way.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Not once did I claim that excessively socialist systems are the sole reason for their continuing collapse; but, to entirely dismiss those as large contributing factors is pure ignorance.

You haven't read his replies to you, because he already responded that a blended system seems to show the best results. So he does agree that an "excessively socialist" system is not a good thing as the numbers bear out.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Behind most of the hapless lost souls showing up in the parks to freeze and accomplish next to nothing? No.

Behind those fools' continued funding? Yes, absolutely.

The only "fantasy" here is believing that such groups don't exist, and that they're not involved.
I don't suppose you can provide links to objective, credible evidence that "anti-American" sources are "behind ... funding" the OWS movement? In particular, I'm looking for evidence showing these "anti-American" sources are a substantial source of funding (since pretty much anyone can make incidental contributions that have no material impact on direction and goals).
So, any chance of getting those links?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
It would be improperly managed. Allowing the few at the top to manage the bulk of the wealth is better for everyone. The money that they put back into the economy by hiring, and purchasing products and services exceeds the net benefit of the catastrophe that would occur were the average American in charge of a percentage of wealth were all wealth split evenly among all Americans.

That's not an argument against wealth in the middle class per se, but an argument against total equality of wealth. There is a difference.

People who have familial wealth, even in what would be considered ridiculously small amounts by the elite, are people who can retire, who can pay for their kids to go to college, who can leave behind modest inheritances to advance the well being of their descendants or assigns. People who have some wealth are also much better able to withstand the vicissitudes of capitalist employment and non employment. They're people who have substantial equity in their homes or own them outright, 401K's, IRA's, stocks and bonds, rental properties, small businesses.

The notion that the elite should control all the wealth is absurd, and the notion that they've managed what they do have in a way that benefits the country as a whole equally so.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
If you can't understand the dangers that unfettered capitalism brings about, you simply aren't paying attention. Have conservatives learned NOTHING from our current economic collapse? I mean seriously, what are your solutions other than calling liberals hippies and Obama a dirty terrorist Muslim? Tell me, please.

Maybe we ought to start looking at which first world countries are actually doing well in this global economic crisis. Germany is a prime example, they have a booming middle class and VERY strict regulations on what their banks are allowed to do. Has it stopped their economy from growing? Wake the fuck up conservatives, you're being played like fiddles by corporate America and you don't even know it.
 
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