#OccupyWallstreet

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Where you get it wrong... is I'm a conservative... and I support getting money out of politics...

Good for you up to that point.

and I would have even stood with my local OWS movement.... * Except for the fact that they have no cohesive message and have been co-opted by special interests and various radical groups fairly quickly.

So if you were to poll me I'd say I support the original intent of the movement, but not what it has become.

So you'd rather support the corruption of money in politics than the occupy movement.

You need to learn the difference between 'democracy' and different voices participating, and 'co-opting'.

Our founding fathers had big differences, but it didn't stop them from uniting.

Pick your side. You don't get a perfect one. And you don't get much credit for the above.

What exactly is so offensive to you? In a large Occupy protest, I saw exactly one person who had a hammer and sickle poster. I very much disagree with him. It's not a reason for me to say 'screw the protest'. For one thing it's a reason to say 'wow, only one?' For another, it's a reason to say 'makes sense that people who are for that sort of radical agenda find common ground in opposing the corruption of the 1%'.

You know, just because you oppose the corruption the USSR became doesn't mean you can't support the revolting against the corrupt tyranny of the Czar that led to it.

If you are that upset that the movement actually wants things like reducing the skyrocketing concentration of wealth, then you are with the 1%. But admit that.

By the way, if you want to just support 'get the money out of politics', this web site matches that agenda:

getmoneyout.com

But what do you expect 'getting the money' of the 1% out of dominating democracy to do? It'll allow democracy to represent the 99% more and wealth will shift back.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Groups who serve the workers? If they really served the workers they wouldn't be dumping the billions of dollars of their members dues into the black hole of political donations, they'd be using that money to enhance the lives and retirement of their members and their families. They'd be building union retirement homes, union daycare, union care facilities, hospitals,gyms and nutritional centers. Instead they puke their money into the toilet of partisan politics and otherwise piss their members money away. Serve the workers my ass.

Yes, they would because government policies have a big effect on the interests of people.

That's why private companies 'dump billions', your number, into the political system.

In fact, the money these interests dump into the system - in one way, remarkably low - often can get returns of thousands of percent or more.

You can see a lot of $10 million in lobbying getting $10 billion in returns.

Spending that money as you suggest would be to their great DISADVANTAGE just as companies spending it on other things would for their interests. You're being clueless.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Good for you up to that point.

So you'd rather support the corruption of money in politics than the occupy movement.

You need to learn the difference between 'democracy' and different voices participating, and 'co-opting'.

Our founding fathers had big differences, but it didn't stop them from uniting.

Pick your side. You don't get a perfect one. And you don't get much credit for the above.

What exactly is so offensive to you? In a large Occupy protest, I saw exactly one person who had a hammer and sickle poster. I very much disagree with him. It's not a reason for me to say 'screw the protest'. For one thing it's a reason to say 'wow, only one?' For another, it's a reason to say 'makes sense that people who are for that sort of radical agenda find common ground in opposing the corruption of the 1%'.

You know, just because you oppose the corruption the USSR became doesn't mean you can't support the revolting against the corrupt tyranny of the Czar that led to it.

If you are that upset that the movement actually wants things like reducing the skyrocketing concentration of wealth, then you are with the 1%. But admit that.

By the way, if you want to just support 'get the money out of politics', this web site matches that agenda:

getmoneyout.com

But what do you expect 'getting the money' of the 1% out of dominating democracy to do? It'll allow democracy to represent the 99% more and wealth will shift back.
How about the tens (hundreds?) of millions that flow into "progressive" political offers every year? (courtesy of George Soros, Peter Lewis, etc) Do you want to get rid of that money as well?

How about eliminating ALL Union money from the political process as well?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
How about the tens (hundreds?) of millions that flow into "progressive" political offers every year? (courtesy of George Soros, Peter Lewis, etc) Do you want to get rid of that money as well?

How about eliminating ALL Union money from the political process as well?

Oh you got him. We best just let everyone pump money wherever. You are so smart and not a neocon at all.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Yes, they would because government policies have a big effect on the interests of people.

That's why private companies 'dump billions', your number, into the political system.

In fact, the money these interests dump into the system - in one way, remarkably low - often can get returns of thousands of percent or more.

You can see a lot of $10 million in lobbying getting $10 billion in returns.

Spending that money as you suggest would be to their great DISADVANTAGE just as companies spending it on other things would for their interests. You're being clueless.
You're being naive and a hypocrite. If the Unions spent the money is the ways i've outlined, their members and their families would be living better lives. The downside for you is your partisan causes would have to get the money from someplace else besides the union coffers.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
You're being naive and a hypocrite. If the Unions spent the money is the ways i've outlined, their members and their families would be living better lives. The downside for you is your partisan causes would have to get the money from someplace else besides the union coffers.

You need to back off the idiocy in your excessive attacks.

Let me type slowly for you:

No, the members would not 'be better off', because the benefits of the political donations outweigh the costs.

In the absence of the unions participating, anti-union interests would have no opposition in the donations and would wipe union members - already greatly weakened - out.

If you knew anything about history, you would have a clue about how workers' interests have had less political power and with unions fought for more rights you'd throw away.

The money would have some benefit to union members if spent as you list, just as my example of the company donating $10 million and getting $10 billion in return would get some benefit if they invested that $10 million in the business instead - new equipment, advertising, whatever. But they'd lose the benefits of the lobbying.

The fact is, interests war in our political system, and the weapon today is money.

Those interests include 'owners' - big corporations, billionares - who make more money the less they pay workers; and they include workers opposed to that.

You're suggesting that the wealth interests have their lobbying organizations be the only side in the war, while the unions leave the war, surrendering. Asinine.

It's already bad enough, with wealth being shifted by trillions the last 30 years from workers to the top, and you want to increase that.

Ultimately, workers can't compete in this money race in politics, as they're poorer all the time compared to the wealthy interests, for whom the amounts of their lobbying are a joke to them. That's why the solution is to remove money for all the organizations from elections.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
You're living a dream, you think the unions spent 10 million of their members money from dues and got 10 billion back from other taxpayers for the union members? You really think those political donations bought those union members the loyalty of the politicians that received them? The only ones getting the benefits from the union members dues are the lobbyists, politicians, media outlets and the union top brass. At least I have the experience of once being a union member and paying those dues and I know where I wish the damn union had spent their money. It isn't spending it on lobbyists in D.C. and State capitols to politicians either.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Mono, it's just tedious to answer basic things at the moment. Yes, the unions get some results by helping elect candidates who support them.

Not enough - which is why they are now forming their own political organization more separate from Democrats. But they'll going to lobby.
 

FancyTurtle

Member
Oct 7, 2011
141
0
0
Good for you up to that point.



So you'd rather support the corruption of money in politics than the occupy movement.

You need to learn the difference between 'democracy' and different voices participating, and 'co-opting'.

Our founding fathers had big differences, but it didn't stop them from uniting.

Pick your side. You don't get a perfect one. And you don't get much credit for the above.

What exactly is so offensive to you? In a large Occupy protest, I saw exactly one person who had a hammer and sickle poster. I very much disagree with him. It's not a reason for me to say 'screw the protest'. For one thing it's a reason to say 'wow, only one?' For another, it's a reason to say 'makes sense that people who are for that sort of radical agenda find common ground in opposing the corruption of the 1%'.

You know, just because you oppose the corruption the USSR became doesn't mean you can't support the revolting against the corrupt tyranny of the Czar that led to it.

If you are that upset that the movement actually wants things like reducing the skyrocketing concentration of wealth, then you are with the 1%. But admit that.

By the way, if you want to just support 'get the money out of politics', this web site matches that agenda:

getmoneyout.com

But what do you expect 'getting the money' of the 1% out of dominating democracy to do? It'll allow democracy to represent the 99% more and wealth will shift back.

that's right the world we live in is made of black and white good and evil or rather evil and less evil. I should be forced to make a non choice. that said stupid hippies who got liberal arts degrees and couldn't find a job afterword are useless human beings. These people feel so entitled to things they never worked for "its so unfair that im poor and your not" I worked so hard even though I don't practice the craft I claim to master. those art students all up in arms because there is no such job as paint me this when you feel like it and I will pay you for your half ass attempt at art. those are the real heroes here
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
LOL! Lasn is a well-known anti-American and anti-Capitalist anarchist whose desires include getting rid of TVs, automobiles, ALL private corporations, and running water.
Well-known in the usual paranoid nutter circles, no doubt. Given your record of making outlandish, yet unsupported allegations, you'll understand if I don't take your word for it. I prefer fact to faith.


The fact that you admire or agree with ANY of those "ideals" tells me more than I ever needed to know about just what kind of total douchebag you are.
The fact that you're incapable of reasoned discussion or really anything beyond mindless chanting of nutter disinformation tells me you haven't grown at all. Just as you were a loyal little Bush apologist during our attack on Iraq, you remain a loyal apologist for corruption and greed. The hilarious part is for all your kneeling and groveling and fantasizing that you're on the right team, they don't care about you in the least. Ewe are nothing but a tool to them, a useful idiot, a sheep to be sheared when they're chilly.


Everyone who is paying attention with an open mind knows exactly who is behind these protests.

Enjoy your new "literature," comrade...
And yet somehow, after running away from my challenge for two days, you weren't able to produce any evidence to support your paranoia. A more rational person might recognize that when facts don't fit one's faith, it's likely time to reexamine the faith. The lunatic fringe just dig In their heals and screech all the louder.

Dismissed.
 
Last edited:

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
[ ... ]"faith-based alternative realities" WTF? I'm not even religious, but nice that you apply a stereotype to this independent conservative.
Why are reading and thinking so hard for so many of you? Faith-based in this context has nothing to do with religion. It's you blind belief that OWS has been "co-opted" by these external groups ... even though you cannot produce any evidence to support this.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
If I understand the gist of your argument, you are suggesting that financial innovation increased the supply of credit while the demand for home mortgages remained constant. As such, the price of credit decreased which, in turn, meant more people, even those unable to pay, took on mortgages.

Although there is an element of truth in this narrative -- assuming I rendered it correctly -- I think it overlooks that the bubble was developing long before any of the large Wall Street banks started getting involved with securitizing home mortgages. There would have been a housing bubble with or without financial innovation. A very good, one that I would recommend, describing the building of the bubble can be found here: http://************/3w7dbja. Although the article is interesting and tackles a number of different issues from a number of different academic fields, the description of the housing bubble proper is from 1236-1266.

Additionally, I think you're characterization of the bank's motivations for entering into the securitization game needs a slight adjustment. Especially where the combined commercial/investment banks were concerned, people inside the banks viewed the innovations as a means to more effectively manage the risk sitting on their balance sheet. As I mentioned earlier, the banks that failed or came close to it, were in such a dire position because they had held onto parts of their products in part because they thought it was a worthwhile asset to hold (and they weren't necessarily wrong as AIG, for example, hardly had to actually payout on hardly any of the CDS contracts to which they agreed indicating that the super senior notes didn't actually stop paying out which is in accord with the theory behind securitization). As the value of the assets declined due to market irrationality -- as mentioned in the paper to which I linked -- the banks couldn't use it as collateral in the repo markets which effectively made them insolvent. The banks were definitely driven by a desire to increase profits. I think also, however, they saw the process as a means to extend more credit -- especially to groups that had traditionally been shut out of the credit markets -- while not significantly increasing their risk portfolio.

The forum won't allow a direct link to the site you offer for reasons I don't know. say "XYZ dot com" in addition so it can be followed.

It wasn't the price of credit that declined, but rather the ease of obtaining it increased well beyond any sort of rational limit, and was often offered at deceptive terms. Mortgages were marketed like furniture loans- "One year no interest!" If you haven't paid the balance before the end of a year, the terms of the contract become onerous indeed. People can survive that on relatively small amounts of money, not on amounts that approached 10X their annual income at the height of the bubble. The hook was "You'll be able to refinance or sell at a huge profit at the end of your short term introductory rate ARM or your negative amortization loan period". When the bubble collapsed into negative equity, that became impossible, particularly when lenders tightened up their lending standards sharply at the same time...

What bankers called innovation was really something else entirely- technical rationalization.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010726030451/http://www.indymedia.org/print.php3?article_id=3159

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all

In other words, they found a way to justify what they wanted to do based on mathematical models, and what they wanted was to make more money. The rather sound idea that there's no money to be made lending to people who can't pay was cast aside by quantifying risk into a mathematical abstraction.

Towards the end of the run, banks were attempting to securitize mortgages of such poor quality that the recipients didn't even make the first payment. They had an enormous number of mortgages in the works, ones they'd scraped the bottom of the barrel in working with mortgage companies to create. And they got caught holding them when investors slammed the securitization pipeline shut. That happened because extant securities turned out to be a lot riskier than investors had believed or bankers had represented them to be.

What you describe as the market turning irrational was exactly the opposite- it was an epiphany, a sudden realization that things weren't as they had seemed to be.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-financial-crisis-and-the-scientific-mindset

I disagree with the author's conclusion, that it all needs to be allowed to fall down, and rather suggest that we need to return to the principles of New Deal banking that prevented such from happening in the fist place.





If I understand the gist of your argument, you are suggesting that financial innovation increased the supply of credit while the demand for home mortgages remained constant. As such, the price of credit decreased which, in turn, meant more people, even those unable to pay, took on mortgages.

Although there is an element of truth in this narrative -- assuming I rendered it correctly -- I think it overlooks that the bubble was developing long before any of the large Wall Street banks started getting involved with securitizing home mortgages. There would have been a housing bubble with or without financial innovation. A very good, one that I would recommend, describing the building of the bubble can be found here: http://************/3w7dbja. Although the article is interesting and tackles a number of different issues from a number of different academic fields, the description of the housing bubble proper is from 1236-1266.

Additionally, I think you're characterization of the bank's motivations for entering into the securitization game needs a slight adjustment. Especially where the combined commercial/investment banks were concerned, people inside the banks viewed the innovations as a means to more effectively manage the risk sitting on their balance sheet. As I mentioned earlier, the banks that failed or came close to it, were in such a dire position because they had held onto parts of their products in part because they thought it was a worthwhile asset to hold (and they weren't necessarily wrong as AIG, for example, hardly had to actually payout on hardly any of the CDS contracts to which they agreed indicating that the super senior notes didn't actually stop paying out which is in accord with the theory behind securitization). As the value of the assets declined due to market irrationality -- as mentioned in the paper to which I linked -- the banks couldn't use it as collateral in the repo markets which effectively made them insolvent. The banks were definitely driven by a desire to increase profits. I think also, however, they saw the process as a means to extend more credit -- especially to groups that had traditionally been shut out of the credit markets -- while not significantly increasing their risk portfolio.

The forum won't allow a direct link to the site you offer for reasons I don't know. say "XYZ dot com" in addition so it can be followed.

It wasn't the price of credit that declined, but rather the ease of obtaining it increased well beyond any sort of rational limit, and was often offered at deceptive terms. Mortgages were marketed like furniture loans- "One year no interest!" If you haven't paid the balance before the end of a year, the terms of the contract become onerous indeed. People can survive that on relatively small amounts of money, not on amounts that approached 10X their annual income at the height of the bubble. The hook was "You'll be able to refinance or sell at a huge profit at the end of your short term introductory rate ARM or your negative amortization loan period". When the bubble collapsed into negative equity, that became impossible, particularly when lenders tightened up their lending standards sharply at the same time...

What bankers called innovation was really something else entirely- technical rationalization.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010726030451/http://www.indymedia.org/print.php3?article_id=3159

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all

In other words, they found a way to justify what they wanted to do based on mathematical models, and what they wanted was to make more money. The rather sound idea that there's no money to be made lending to people who can't pay was cast aside by quantifying risk into a mathematical abstraction.

Towards the end of the run, banks were attempting to securitize mortgages of such poor quality that the recipients didn't even make the first payment. They had an enormous number of mortgages in the works, ones they'd scraped the bottom of the barrel in working with mortgage companies to create. And they got caught holding them when investors slammed the securitization pipeline shut. That happened because extant securities turned out to be a lot riskier than investors had believed or bankers had represented them to be.

What you describe as the market turning irrational was exactly the opposite- it was an epiphany, a sudden realization that things weren't as they had seemed to be.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-financial-crisis-and-the-scientific-mindset

I disagree with the author's conclusion, that it all needs to be allowed to fall down, and rather suggest that we need to return to the principles of New Deal banking that prevented such from happening in the fist place.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Oh you got him. We best just let everyone pump money wherever. You are so smart and not a neocon at all.
I don't even know what you're trying to say...?

I'm against ALL money in politics, and I was asking if Craig felt the same versus allowing selective funding for the groups of HIS choice.

The real solution involves his progressive friends losing all of their funding as well. Can he accept that? Can you?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
I don't even know what you're trying to say...?

I'm against ALL money in politics, and I was asking if Craig felt the same versus allowing selective funding for the groups of HIS choice.

The real solution involves his progressive friends losing all of their funding as well. Can he accept that? Can you?

The difference is, Progressives are always 100% honest and good natured and work for the good of the common man. Of course, he has sole discretion over who is a "progressive" and who is not, and the label can be changed from day to day depending on whatever criteria he chooses... hence why all "progressives" are perfect all the time!

And that is why you can trust progressives with all your money, and no one else.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Well-known in the usual paranoid nutter circles, no doubt. Given your record of making outlandish, yet unsupported allegations, you'll understand if I don't take your word for it. I prefer fact to faith.



The fact that you're incapable of reasoned discussion or really anything beyond mindless chanting of nutter disinformation tells me you haven't grown at all. Just as you were a loyal little Bush apologist during our attack on Iraq, you remain a loyal apologist for corruption and greed. The hilarious part is for all your kneeling and groveling and fantasizing that you're on the right team, they don't care about you in the least. Ewe are nothing but a tool to them, a useful idiot, a sheep to be sheared when they're chilly.



And yet somehow, after running away from my challenge for two days, you weren't able to produce any evidence to support your paranoia. A more rational person might recognize that when facts don't fit one's faith, it's likely time to reexamine the faith. The lunatic fringe just dig In their heals and screech all the louder.

Dismissed.
Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "Lalalalala I can't hear youuu!" is admirable.

GG.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
I just wonder who came up with the idea that the Occupy protesters can break any law they want and the 1st Amendment will shelter them from the consequences ?
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0

Its funny.

When a 5 year old opens a lemonade stand and it gets shut down by city government the "progressives" are all in support of that because the city government is "doing its job to protect the public".

When a buch of flea ridden hippies live in their own filth posing (an actual) public health risk and serve unlicensed food, that is ok.

Derp Derp.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
Nice bit of revisionist history mixed with fact. While I'll agree that the FRB of the Depression era did the wrong things, the need for them to do anything extraordinary, like become the lender of last resort, flood financial markets with liquidity, was the result of the massive collapse of financial capitalism, of the bubble economy of the 1920's.

The 'collapse' of financial capitalism was, at its core, caused by speculative activities which produced asset bubbles in both real property and equities. These speculative activities, in turn, were the product of the foibles of man and not an inherent defect in capitalism. Moreover, every sort of economic arrangement has its particular shortcomings. To paraphrase Churchill, capitalism is the least worst of all the alternatives.

The notion that the New Deal didn't positively affect the lives of millions of Americans is utter garbage. The WPA & others employed millions who would otherwise have been unemployed, and created an enormous amount of infrastructure still in use today.

The question is not whether it improved the lives of specific individuals or whether the infrastructure funded by the New Deal prove many benefits down the line, but whether they were effective at stimulating aggregate demand and kick-starting the economy. The problem, that I tried to highlight in the post to which you responded, was that the average person -- and the American economy generally -- was not better off before the outbreak of WWII despite the Roosevelt administration spending billions of dollars and having the government intervene in the private economic order in a manner hitherto unseen.

Leaving aside the question of the efficacy of the New Deal, I tend to support the position of Friedman that although the measures might have been justifiable at the time, their justification and need are not so apparent now. Yet the massive increases in spending coupled with the increase scope of governmental remain.

Some of those innovations carried beyond WW2 & provided the framework for the rise of a broad middle class we have today-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

http://www.asdk12.org/staff/miller_...eat Depression/New Deal Alphabet Agencies.pdf

If it were really the case that the New Deal was responsible for providing the framework for the broad middle class it would be equally true that a poorer nation, looking to increase its economic fortunes, could simply enact legislation similar to the New Deal -- say promise huge government spending and empower unions -- and they could create a prosperous country with a healthy middle class. Of course, this strategy would not work precisely because the reason the United States developed a middle class -- and the reason that it was prosperous generally -- was the American economies productivity and the year-on-year increases to GDP through the combined skill of its workforce and prudent investment in new enterprises by those individuals possessing surplus capital.


Tax rates for the top 1% have fallen by a third, even as their share of income more than doubled since 1980. It's not how much of the govt's revenues they contribute, it's what they have after they do, and they've done disproportionately well, very well indeed.

I think, then, this is simply an area where we will always have differing opinions. I don't think that the mere fact that the highest 1% of earners enjoy a greater share of aggregate income their taxes should somehow increase or, at the very least, decrease. Moreover, the higher rate of decrease in rate might itself be a reflection of the fact that under previous tax regimes they paid a proportionately higher percentage of the taxes.

And to your point, I think it is all about how much of the government's revenues they contribute. I find it slightly troubling -- from both theoretical and practical sense -- to think the government ought to tell a citizen that his obligation should be significantly more simply because the government has determined he is in a better position, vis-a-vis other citizens, to shoulder the obligation.
 
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