#OccupyWallstreet

[Craig234]

I think people are forgetting the most important thing with this movement and that is it is against Wall Street executives and CEOs getting golden parachutes and fleeing companies millionares while the other 99% go on unemployment or lose their homes. Personally I'm somewhere in between free enterprise and socialism as a point of view. I feel that people should be allowed to become millionares if success and the economy makes it so. Think Bill Gates/Sam Walton type of fortune where they form a company and get rich off of it. I know a few people in my past who had that type of success maybe not to the effect of those two but they are definately in the top 1% of the pay scale, from working their asses off and building a company from scratch through selling on Amazon and ebay and taking 10-15 years to achieve the status of a millionare. Where I draw the line is with two things, one is they should have to pay their share of tax on their earnings, dividends and winfalls like everyone else. Two is if the company is failing and they are at the helm they should go down with the ship because maybe then with that option they will come up with bright ideas to right the ship.

It is ridiculous that someone could earn a salary that is 1000+ times greater then the average employee while only being in that position for a couple of months. Its also ridiculous for them to get a winfall while everyone else suffers. I personally feel that american corporations need to take heed of another capitalist nation when it comes to CEO pay...Japan, where the average CEO maybe makes about $1-2 million or so a year. They are still the 1%, but $1-2 million dollars of salary leaves a lot more money freed up to hire people and help their stock holders as well(US average I believe for big companies is $25-$50 million). I would even say that severence's should also partially or mostly held up by company stock and that the CEO's should get what typical corporations give its employees which is two weeks pay. Granted, its still a large sum of money even with the Japanese system of capitalism but a person that is making a couple of million a year isn't going to want to take 2 weeks of that salary to leave the company, they are going to want to right the ship and make the company successful as best as they can.

If you look at Bill Gates, he didn't earn a huge salary, instead he got paid mostly in stock which has a worth to it but it is dependant on if the company sinks or swims, if he cashes it in he has to pay the taxes on those stocks and therefore would rather take the dividends it pays which granted(which are still taxed), he can live off of, and the company is still solvent.

I think reforms need to be made to CEO's salaries, and I feel that the goverment should take an active part in helping these people who are down on their luck get back on their feet with assistance like Grants and loans for starting a business and work placement assistance to the people who are looking for work.

I guess you could say I have a liberal point of view basically but not a socialist point of view when it comes to things because I do feel that millionares are ok in the most part but the 1% should not rape the other 99% of the population and should pay their fair share of taxes in order to help the other 99% because the 1% are dependent of the other 99 for success and if the 99% fail then everyone should fail.

I'm just one of the 99% who aspires to be more then what I am today, if it is to become one of the 1%(though highly unlikely) then so be it, but I will never forget what it feels like to be part of the 99% and therefore I support Occupy Wall Street.(Hey Warren Buffet atleast inpart supports this movement and therefore you could say that if 1 insanely rich man can take that point of view what would prevent others).

I'm in favor of Bill Gates and Sam Walton making a lot of money for what they did.

But I don't think Gates deserved to be the richest man in the world for Microsoft; for example a lot of the wealth came from being lucky that the new PC technology was most efficient to have one operating system to develop for, and Windows happened to be at the right place at the right time. Give him $500,000,000, give him $1 billion - 50 billion?

Sam Walton too did things that were innovative in retail that deserved reward. Give him millions of dollars rewards for that.

He also caught the wave of shifting manufacturing to China (and selling the goods falsely as 'made in the USA!', policies stimulating consumer spending, etc.

Making his kids the wealthiest family on the planet? No.

Was there room for reducing the harmful side of Microsoft and Wal-Mart on the economy while incenting the good they did? Probably.

The government should protect the economy for everyone from any one interest, whether that's preserving competition, tax rates, or other regulations.

Keep the innovation, toss the abuse of power that hurts the rest of the country.

 

[jmarti445]

I'm in favor of Bill Gates and Sam Walton making a lot of money for what they did.

But I don't think Gates deserved to be the richest man in the world for Microsoft; for example a lot of the wealth came from being lucky that the new PC technology was most efficient to have one operating system to develop for, and Windows happened to be at the right place at the right time. Give him $500,000,000, give him $1 billion - 50 billion?

Sam Walton too did things that were innovative in retail that deserved reward. Give him millions of dollars rewards for that.

He also caught the wave of shifting manufacturing to China (and selling the goods falsely as 'made in the USA!', policies stimulating consumer spending, etc.

Making his kids the wealthiest family on the planet? No.

Was there room for reducing the harmful side of Microsoft and Wal-Mart on the economy while incenting the good they did? Probably.

The government should protect the economy for everyone from any one interest, whether that's preserving competition, tax rates, or other regulations.

Keep the innovation, toss the abuse of power that hurts the rest of the country.

Exactly, hey also to other's in this forum, lets have a thought provoking discussion about this that doesn't devolve into talking about firearms or hippies, or soviets and stuff. I think that both the left and right can learn from each other if they provide what they feel is the best for the country, whether or not we agree on it or not(I agree with most of what you said btw). We can still learn from it.

 

[wuliheron]

I'd say it's more like people find ways to be more manipulative with their words....

Basically P&N teaches people to be annoying jackasses disconnected from normal reality

The sad thing is, P&N culture is becoming more and more mainstream. I've said it before and I'll say it again - politics is a disease

People can get that kind of education anywhere. Just tune in Fox News or talk radio and you can learn how to be an annoying jackass. In Donald Trump's case, he's a huge fan of professional wrestling and he's got their trash talk down pat. Hell, visit a Southern Baptist church if you want to learn how to be an annoying asshole and use trash talk. They perfected it so well in the 90s half their own congregation left rather then listen to anymore and they had to tone it down to get them back.

If its a disease its a psychological one called dysfunctional behavior and it goes with the territory in a society dedicated to extremes. The more classist and capitalistic the society the more fundamentalist Christian. Hence, the reason why the US is by far the most religious country in the developed world and also the most capitalistic. Change the economic system and the assholes will calm down given a generation or two and most will become "spiritual" rather then religious. There are already some interesting changes occurring in this regard with fewer of the poor attending church as the US expands entitlements and it is the middle class that feels more of a need for all that trash talk to bolster their resolve and paint clear enemies for them to blame for all their problems.

 

[wuliheron]

Well it certainly attracted you and Steeplerot...

Besides being good for trying new arguments its a good place to share ideas and views with like minded people. The American left wing has always been dazed and confused in many respects. Its not easy understanding a lifestyle and political views that have never been popular where you live. I see the same problem with a lot of Atheists who use similar arguments to the very fundamentalists they hate often disguised as arcane intellectual arguments. Its all they've ever known.

 

[Broheim]

It's an expression of Solidarity more than anything else.

can't they express solidarity in a way that doesn't waste my tax money?

 

[Craig234]

can't they express solidarity in a way that doesn't waste my tax money?

Why don't you worry about things wasting a million times more of your tax money instead of screamining and whining against those who are trying to help you?

 

[wuliheron]

can't they express solidarity in a way that doesn't waste my tax money?

You're complaining about petty cash as your government is sold to the highest bidder, the public is ripped off royally by a bunch of bankers, and you are stripped of your constitutional rights. Don't worry, J.P. Morgan Chase "donated" 4.6 million to the N.Y. police department to help cover the costs and make sure these insane people will eventually just go away and let throw your life away.

 

[Broheim]

You're complaining about petty cash as your government is sold to the highest bidder, the public is ripped off royally by a bunch of bankers, and you are stripped of your constitutional rights. Don't worry, J.P. Morgan Chase "donated" 4.6 million to the N.Y. police department to help cover the costs and make sure these insane people will eventually just go away and let throw your life away.

I'm danish, I was talking about occupy denmark.

least corruption in the world (practically nonexistant in recent history).
highest income equality.
happiest people in the world (according to multiple surveys).
our bank bailouts are completely financed by the banks themselves (the government actually makes a profit).
nothing have been removed from the danish constitution.
nobody can donate anything to the police (we don't have departments like you, the police is completely national and centrally controlled, no politics wantsoever).

again I can't see anything to protest.

 

[wuliheron]

I'm danish, I was talking about occupy denmark.

least corruption in the world (practically nonexistant in recent history).
highest income equality.
happiest people in the world (according to multiple surveys).
our bank bailouts are completely financed by the banks themselves (the government actually makes a profit).
nothing have been removed from the danish constitution.
nobody can donate anything to the police (we don't have departments like you, the police is completely national and centrally controlled, no politics wantsoever).

again I can't see anything to protest.

I suppose with all that going for you its important to find something to complain about no matter how petty. Get a life. The rest of us have serious problems to discuss.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Curiosity. If they are fed up with the establishment, why not put forth a candidate? Seems like a good way to have their position heard at the congressional level right?

This is not a loaded question.

Mine was.

The thing here is, if you are tired of something, you do not need to offer a complete solution in your protest. That leads to a lockdown and a quibbling over insubstantial details which yeild no net result.

There IS no complete solution, but we have found that leeching someone does not get rid of "bad humors" and should be stopped when someone is sick. When something does NOT work, change must be made and the topic needs to be taken seriously.

THAT is what this is right now. The warning light that tells us "bridge out" ahead before we are actually on it.

 

[xj0hnx]

The 2012 election, Obama has my vote at the moment but if Giulliani runs as a Republican then I may have to switch my party affilation to GOP

It's hard to explain how profoundly comical this sentence is.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Looks like Israeli citizens got their way.
Congratulation on a job well done.
I do believe they started their protests a couple months before this stuff started here

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/...rael-occupy-wall-street-tax-corporations-rich

Israel to shift tax burden to the rich and corporations

 

[Darwin333]

And why shouldn't a couple bad apples reflect on the whole? How many times has this photo been posted just on this forum alone as representative of the whole Tea Party?

Here's the voice of Occupy Wall Street. Quite a movement you've got going there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJPKMvWDmY

Because both instances are wrong? Just a thought.

 

[airdata]

Originally Posted by BoberFett
And why shouldn't a couple bad apples reflect on the whole? How many times has this photo been posted just on this forum alone as representative of the whole Tea Party?



Here's the voice of Occupy Wall Street. Quite a movement you've got going there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJPKMvWDmY

I think at this point we should all be able to agree that the tactic of going into a protest and interviewing random people who probably have no public speaking skills or any expectation of being interviewed means nothing.

You can look at ANY gathering where this has been done whether right, or left wing. Same result. You get a bunch of idiots. Why is this? Because there are alot of idiots here in america. Just a fact.

If you can't agree with that, you may as well stop posting in these threads.

I do however find it halarious that so many "right wing" people are anti #occupy but then they're also anti government for the sake of there being a democratic president in office. And then if there's a republican in office, they praise the same actions the democrat did because now a republican is doing it or vice versa. Anybody who does that is an idiot. And yes, they get to vote.

For an independent like me, it's great comedy.

The basic message of #occupy is something everybody agrees on. We know we got fucked. We know that the banks took deposited money and made horrible business deals with it... threw it on a craps table and lost. We know that the federal reserve gave 17 TRILLION dollars to foreign banks in off the books bail outs that make our little bailouts we're quibbling over look like chump change. We know that the Federal Reserve is backing action to get $75 TRILLION + derivatives from bank of America FDIC insured.

Guess what that means? That means if FDIC has to cover 75 trillion, you're shit out of luck and any penny you have in a bank is not yours anymore. That or we print up 75 Trillion dollars and that $100,000 you have in the bank is now worth $.25 and we start printing $1,000,000 bills like some bleak african country.


So, Idiots aside... I don't think any of us disagree on the core concepts. Its just that lots of people want to put this pretend jersey on and pretend they belong to this team. Whether it be team Glenn Beck, Team Rush Limbaugh or Team #Occupy.

When you only see one side and have the mind set the you are going against another "team". You really don't have any place even voicing your opinion since its obviously a one sided opinion.

 

[airdata]

http://www.businessinsider.com/oakl...ccupy-wall-street-to-break-up-protest-2011-10

Oakland police embedded in #occupy crowd. Very well could have been the ones throwing bottles & rocks to justify the gassing, concussing, and rubber bullet pelting recently. This is a well known tactic to break up a peaceful protest. Send thugs in pretending to be part of it and get justification to attack innocent people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEj_4fqDbnM

Peacefully protesting Iraq war veteran Scott Olsen shot in head w\ gas canister, and then attacked with flashbang/concussion grenade while people attempted to help him up. He has a fractured skull and is alive but not able to speak at the moment.

Right to assembly and freedom of speech isn't limited to times of day or location.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/31/us/tennessee-occupy-protests/index.html

Tennessee judge rules #occupy arrests unconstitutional, orders their release.

 

[Nebor]

But I don't think Gates deserved to be the richest man in the world for Microsoft; for example a lot of the wealth came from being lucky that the new PC technology was most efficient to have one operating system to develop for, and Windows happened to be at the right place at the right time. Give him $500,000,000, give him $1 billion - 50 billion?

Sam Walton too did things that were innovative in retail that deserved reward. Give him millions of dollars rewards for that.

He also caught the wave of shifting manufacturing to China (and selling the goods falsely as 'made in the USA!', policies stimulating consumer spending, etc.

Making his kids the wealthiest family on the planet? No.

So who deserves to be the richest man in the world? Since both of the people you mention grew fantastically wealthy because the value of the company that they owned grew so exponentially, how do you mitigate that? They didn't get rich from their CEO salaries. What do you do with all that conspicuous wealth that's generated from a company's value skyrocketing?

 

[Nebor]

Looks like Israeli citizens got their way.
Congratulation on a job well done.
I do believe they started their protests a couple months before this stuff started here

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/...rael-occupy-wall-street-tax-corporations-rich

That's awesome. :thumbsup:

 

[halik]

So who deserves to be the richest man in the world? Since both of the people you mention grew fantastically wealthy because the value of the company that they owned grew so exponentially, how do you mitigate that? They didn't get rich from their CEO salaries. What do you do with all that conspicuous wealth that's generated from a company's value skyrocketing?

Having people decide who gets how much always leads to great things...

 

[Ninjahedge]

Nebor, you forgot the " around "value"

 

[Ns1]

goddamn 1%'ers laying off people!

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11...sequence-of-occupy-wall-street-demonstration/

 

[cwjerome]

Are you for the 1% or the 99%? Pretty simple question. You don't get to pick perfect.

There was plenty of fault to find in every movement's protests. Did you oppose them?

I am for 100%.

I do not ever make "perfect" the enemy of the good, but I also do not create false dichotomies or paint a simplistic black/white picture out of complicated, heavily nuanced concepts.

I'll admit to being a little blase' about the OSW movement. I am not fantastically against it because there are serious issues related to the topic and participation/debate is generally a good thing. I am not fantastically for it because I believe it's a cover full of crackpots that doesn't get to the root of the problems.

This may not make the majority on either side very happy, but when have I ever cared about anything like that, and I suspect I'm not the only one stuck in the middle. If I had to snap my fingers "yes/no" to determine the existence of the whole OSW movement I suppose I would pick yes... my curiosity and optimism runs deep... it's interesting and perhaps a sliver of good can indirectly come out of it. But that doesn't mean I have to be a cheerleader or succumb to your either-or fallacy.

 

[airdata]

How about we not worry about Rich vs Poor.

How about we start things off by just taking money out of politics. Enforce some regulations w\ government / elected officials. They shouldn't be passing legislation and then going to work for some corporation they helped when they leave office.

If you're a congressman or senator and you do it to get rich and stay rich, you're doing it wrong and shouldn't be in office. GTFO plz. TY.

Stuff like that happening is absolutely ridiculous.

F**k your student loans.. it's not about YOU YOU YOU. There are real issues here that need to be addressed before we worry about bailing out somebody who thought it was a good idea to go $60k in debt to get a psychology degree.

 

[bfdd]

I am for 100%.

I do not ever make "perfect" the enemy of the good, but I also do not create false dichotomies or paint a simplistic black/white picture out of complicated, heavily nuanced concepts.

I'll admit to being a little blase' about the OSW movement. I am not fantastically against it because there are serious issues related to the topic and participation/debate is generally a good thing. I am not fantastically for it because I believe it's a cover full of crackpots that doesn't get to the root of the problems.

This may not make the majority on either side very happy, but when have I ever cared about anything like that, and I suspect I'm not the only one stuck in the middle. If I had to snap my fingers "yes/no" to determine the existence of the whole OSW movement I suppose I would pick yes... my curiosity and optimism runs deep... it's interesting and perhaps a sliver of good can indirectly come out of it. But that doesn't mean I have to be a cheerleader or succumb to your either-or fallacy.

That was very well put. I feel the same.

btw, I like that Occupy LA has a big banner up for Bank Transfer Day.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Air, I agree, but why are student loans different from any other?

People are not asking for the money to appear in their pants, but to make student loans easy, forbid them from ever going up, and scale up tuition many times faster than inflation or actual operating costs is just dirty pool.

 

[Nebor]

Nebor, you forgot the " around "value"

You don't think the real value of Walmart has increased over the time that Samuel Walton served as CEO? You don't think the physical infrastructure, stock, etc. grew hundreds of times over again in real value? Same with Microsoft, but their expansive properties are virtual\digital.

Not to say that speculation does lead to some companies being valued way over their real value, but you're barking up the wrong tree on these two.