OCing Sempron 3100+, Paris or Palermo core???

[firebirdude]

After reading this little write up:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/print/sempron-3100-oc.html
I have decided to build a rig using this setup for a friend on a budget. I know the Paris core was used in the test, but when searching around for it, I found both the Paris core and a Palmero core. The differences I noticed is that the Palermo core is actually a 64-bit processor at 90nanos where the Paris is not.

So my question is, which will overclock faster in the end?
(Planning on using quality PC3500 or 4000 RAM and an NF3 mobo)

 

[furballi]

My 3100 Paris (SDA3100AIP3AX) supports 64-bits AND Cool N Quiet. The Paris runs cooler than the more expensive A64 3000 (suppose to be better than the Palermo).

There is NO way you'll know until you pop in the CPU and test. I think both will run at +2300MHz. I'd go with the cheaper CPU.

 

[firebirdude]

Originally posted by: furballi I'd go with the cheaper CPU.

Oh and they're both within a couple bucks of each other.

 

[furballi]

More than $5, go with Paris. My Paris will run fine at 2400MHz with 1.45Vcore.

 

[pdo]

don't the Paris core runs hotter then the Palermo core? And for Sempron usually you'll hit the mobo's limit before you hit the cpu's limit.

 

[furballi]

The thermal power envelope for the Paris core is 62W, a tad lower than the A64 Winchester/Venice. I can push the FSB on my ECS NF3 above 280MHz with Clockgen. I limit my Vcore to 1.55 cause I plan to keep this CPU for several years. The max CPU temp in Super Pi is 47C with 73F ambient air.

 

[Blooz]

Did you look at the DATE of that article? 10/11/2004!

I'm surprised you even could FIND a "Paris"!

A 64 bit, 90nm core Palermo Sempy 3100+ will be an E6 stepping, and most do 2.5-2.6 without breathing hard.

 

[firebirdude]

Originally posted by: BloozA 64 bit, 90nm core Palermo Sempy 3100+ will be an E6 stepping

Uh what?!

So it would be the better choice?

And yeah, most places do not offer the Paris core anymore. But I managed to find one that sells both.

 

[Furen]

Ok, here it goes:

Paris is a 130nm C revision core (basically Newcastle based).
Palermo can be one of two, either 90nm Revision D (Winchester-based) or 90 nm 64-bit enabled Revision E (Venice based).

Palermo is superior to Paris in all way possible, with the revision E 64-bit enabled Palermos being the best.

 

[firebirdude]

Originally posted by: Furen
Palermo is superior to Paris in all way possible, with the revision E 64-bit enabled Palermos being the best.

Even when it comes to OCing the heck out of them?

 

[furballi]

There is no guarantee with OC. It's easy to get 2300MHz from these chips. 2400 would be the target if you have an average MB and RAM. The performance difference between 2400 and 2500 is minimal.

The 3100 Sempron running at 2400MHz would be equivalent to an A64 3500 dual channel memory at stock speed and DDR400 timing (between 86 and 87 sec 2M digits Super Pi). That's a super deal when one factors in the $90 cost of the MB and Sempron CPU combo at Fry's. At this speed, the video card will determine the quality of the game.

The performance difference between the Paris and Parlermo at the same stock speed is less than 1 or 2%. The Parlermo uses less current at peak CPU load, but the thermal output per unit area is higher due to the 90 nm construction. The Paris core can take a slighly higher Vcore.

Folks who purchase Semprons are not going to pay big bucks for RAM and MB. Limit the Vcore to about 1V to 1.5V and be happy with whatever clock speed you get that's Prime95 and Memtest stable.

 

[Furen]

Palermo should be easier to overclock since temperatures are much lower. It SHOULD overclock better, too, but I've seen some really good newcastles and some really bad venices.

 

[firebirdude]

Originally posted by: furballi
That's a super deal when one factors in the $90 cost of the MB and Sempron CPU combo at Fry's.

Got a link to that? Can't find it on their site and there's no Fry's around me.

 

[furballi]

Deal is dead. You can now pickup the same MB with a Sempron 2800 ($80). This CPU has an 8x multiplier. Therefore, you will have to crank on the FSB and lower the RAM speed (from 166 to 133) to achieve 2400MHz core speed. This can be difficult with this board and Value RAM. Still not a bad value.

 

[firebirdude]

Yeah but the 3100+ is the "only Sempron to feature the K8 architecture found in Athlon 64 CPUs. Like the Athlon 64, the Sempron 3100+ features a HyperTransport bus and an integrated memory controller with support of DDR400 SDRAM."

 

[selfbuilt]

Here's a later article from X-bit (04/04/05) that dicusses the difference between Palermo and Paris semprons.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/sempron-3100e.html

As you see, they got their Palermo to just under 2.7GHz, while the earlier Paris would only do 2.5GHz.

 

[furballi]

Same with 2800, just a lower multiplier. The 2800 also comes with the 90 nm mfr process, which in theory, should run cooler.

 

[Zap]

Definately get the Palermo core. There's the D0 stepping which doesn't overclock as high as the other ones but still runs cool. The E3/E6 steppings are what you really want for overclocking.

 

[mindwreck]

Originally posted by: Zap
Definately get the Palermo core. There's the D0 stepping which doesn't overclock as high as the other ones but still runs cool. The E3/E6 steppings are what you really want for overclocking.

quite right. The D0(which i have) typically hit 2.4 - 2.7ghz. The newer E3/E6 ones can hit as high as 3ghz.

 

[Zap]

My D0 hits 2.52GHz... with 1.65v vcore! :Q At more reasonable voltages, will hit about 2.4GHz. This is prime stable, will easily boot Windows and do stuff otherwise. My E3 does 2.75GHz with about 1.55v outside of the case, but in the mATX case and at a hot LAN party (probably over 80ºF with 20 people/computers packed into a small conference room) I had to drop it to 2.65GHz. I've never had an E6.

With all overclocking YMMV, so while I will tell of my experiences, I'd hesitate to say "all" or "typically" for overclocks because that will lead to people saying "but mine doesn't OC that high, what am I doing wrong/my chip is bad."

 

[furballi]

My 3100 Paris is stable at 2497MHz with 1.6Vcore (+6.7% over the 1.5 stock voltage). The Palermo runs at 1.4V stock. For long-term durability, I would limit the overclock to +10% or 1.54Vcore. You may be able to squeeze another 100-150MHz out of a good Palermo core, but you will definitely need to drop the RAM speed from 166 to 133 (245MHz to 196MHz RAM speed at 2650MHz core speed). A quick Super Pi test will reveal that this drop in RAM speed will cost between 50 and 60MHz CPU core speed. The net result is a small gain of about 50MHz core speed. The additional CPU core voltage and heat isn't worth the trouble.

I normally don't like to drop the memory divider below 166 unless I can add another 200MHz core speed at 133 divider.

In general, the Sempron and A64 platform CPUs will be rock-solid up to 2.4 to 2.5GHz (+10% bump in core voltage). A few good chips/MB/RAM combo can hit 2.6 to 2.7GHz. The newer Sempron is almost identical to the more expensive A64 and only requires another 40MHz core speed to outrun the A64.

Opteron cores should give the user another 100 to 200MHz of core speed under ideal conditions. I would personally avoid the 144 because of the 50MHz RAM speed penalty mentioned above. The 146 uses a 10x multiplier, which will allow the user to run quality Value RAM at 166 speed up to 2.78GHz core speed.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: furballi
For long-term durability, I would limit the overclock to +10% or 1.54Vcore.

That's a good rule-of-thumb.

BTW, I've had two Paris Semprons. One of them, never used (returned to Fry's after I found out it was a Paris). The other one never made it past 2.3GHz even with voltage, wasn't too happy running past about 2.2GHz.

As I said, YMMV.

 

[furballi]

Both of my 3100 Paris from Fry's were rock-solid at a min core speed of 2.36GHz (1.5Vcore). I can push the better chip to 2.44GHz with the same Vcore. At 2.44GHz, I can outperform a stock A64 3500 with any benchmark. Probably the best $50 spent on a CPU so far.

 

[firebirdude]

Originally posted by: furballi
Probably the best $50 spent on a CPU so far.

Damn it! How come you keep finding these deals at Frys'? That's a great deal on the 2800+ combo, but I was kinda after the 3100+ for one....and two, they are out of stock and don't expect to be re-stocked for several weeks. (I called)

Looking to spend $125-$130 on the CPU/MOBO combo. I can buy them separately for that much.

 

[Zap]

If you're gonna spend that much, then just grab a guaranteed E3/E6 Palermo and a decent board - just make sure to do the research to make sure the board supports vcore for 90nm chips because some don't (such as Chaintech VNF3-250 with newest BIOS). My recommendation for a mid-priced board is the Biostar Tforce6100 for $70 (search for my review under Motherboards). The Biostar board can go high enough HTT that the 2600/2800+ can reach 2.5GHz+.