OCZ Vertex Review

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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: coolVariable
The CDfreaks benchmark was done by someone who practically is a mod on the OCZ tech forums.
She would never ever say anything critical about the vertex.
Take the review for what it is worth ... IMO it might as well be an OCZ in-house review.

You're suggesting she was advanced a review model ahead of the other major review sites owing to her close association with the vendor, and that the favorable review might be somewhat biased because of the unavoidable personal aspects of that relationship?

For shame, unbelievable, preposterous! How dare you imply such! :Q

Oh yeah, this is OCZ we are talking about. Yeah, kinda the default assumption until proven otherwise. I agree

Still though, crystaldiskmark bench results were include, that is progress, monumental progress in my book. Maybe even "turning a new chapter" worthy progress.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Search the OCZ forums for Wendy and you will see what I mean ;-)

Or should I say ... Tony II ... tatatam!
 

n7

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2004
21,281
4
81
Originally posted by: coolVariable
Search the OCZ forums for Wendy and you will see what I mean ;-)

Or should I say ... Tony II ... tatatam!

LOL.

I see what you mean.

*Hands out of grains of salt for all*
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
The Intel drive can actually stutter because its too fast, but it will be very random and sporadic unlike the OCZ drive because the problem is different.

See the Intel drives to Write Combining. Write Combining is using bursts rather than sending data little by little. Write Combining effectively reduces write amplification(the ratio of number of pages/block) because it can burst close to the size of the block. The drive uses log table inside the controller to manage what to do.

Imagine what happens though if the random write speeds greatly exceed the garbage collection speed. If there are enough IOs being fed to the drive that is random writes the lookup table will be optimized for random write speeds and possibly flood the drive because it will become faster.

Of course it can be changed over long time by changing the usage pattern. That sounds similar to what Intel's talking about when saying it optimizes according to usage doesn't it?

Are there any reported observations of this form of performance degradation? (that's not a challenge to your claims, I am curious to see how one characterizes this facet of SSD stutter)

One thing we can count on is being in the murky dark on anything about Intel drives that aren't super until Intel releases their next-gen drives. Intel likes to demonize their past offerings a little when they release a new product, so you can bet when the new SSD's are released then Intel marketing will start the demonization process on the existing SSD line.

http://forum.ssdworld.ch/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=82

These guys stress SSDs rather hard. The X25-E and the FusionIO which has similar degradations probably wouldn't experience that in normal conditions(at least not that much).

The Write Combining guarantees write amplification to be low if done well but if the other parts of the drive can't keep up slowdowns are possible. I'd think the other way of lowering write amplification is using speculation. The controller would try to speculate the size of the next data so it can fit on the block. Performance would be higher but there will be a reliability sacrifice.

I'll tell you what happens with my system. I have the X25-M as the main boot drive, and stores most of the applications.

On the Wi-Fi connection which has a strong signal I don't notice anything special.
On the Wi-Max connection(Canadian Bell WiMax) which I have low connection, compared to the Raptor I wouldn't notice much internet lag. But internet lag is of course not about 100% connection. See on the Raptor I'd see constant high latency but on the X25-M I see low latency, and suddenly everything that should have happened will occur after 10-15 sec delay. This happens on WoW and to a less degree on internet and streaming data.

Does it make sense?? Everything floods because the WC algorithm is bursting in large data sizes. In the OCZ SSD it lags consistently and all the time but on the X25-M its sporadic and hard to predict.

Maybe because the X25-M and X25-E has the same controller the X25-M can't stand it. Perhaps the controller is made for X25-E and no special optimization have been made for non-server usage. No personal user needs more than 300-400 IOPS.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
http://forum.ssdworld.ch/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=82

These guys stress SSDs rather hard. The X25-E and the FusionIO which has similar degradations probably wouldn't experience that in normal conditions(at least not that much).

Very very interesting. :thumbsup: Thanks for the info, I shall spend some time readinf more now!

The random freezes of the X25-M isn't as extreme as what people say for OCZ Core sure. But I think the level that causes it is still pretty low. I use internet and play WoW maybe stream some music and video but it seems even that is enough to flood it.

Do I really need an X25-E for it to satisfy such uses I wonder? The problem with SSDs is that the delta between peak performance and low performance is way too high. That's why you notice it so profound.

SSDs aren't worth it. Nothing gave a more drastic performance increase than going from 7200RPM HDD to a 10K RPM 36GB Raptor drive, nothing.

Plus, the industry thinks they are gonna lower the prices of the SSDs by using crap like 3 bit and 4-bit per cell devices. If the mere 2-bit MLC devices have problems and even the SLC versions do, does people really want to know how 3 bit and 4 bit devices will perform??

See if anything that's hardware requires such "optimizations" and "tweaks"(like the OCZ drive) than the hardware is flawed. It's sort of like the Netburst CPUs which required SSE2 to perform like the lowest of the Athlons. You take a good design like a Core 2 and it'll shit on the P4's face without even trying.

I wonder if hard drives will be ever replaced?

(I'm annoyed yes. See when the drive runs well it seems almost like a dream but when it lags you realize it IS a dream. It sorta hypes it and yanks it away from you. Next storage purchase regarding "solid-state" memory devices will only include RAM and caches, thanks)
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
I wonder if hard drives will be ever replaced?

(I'm annoyed yes. See when the drive runs well it seems almost like a dream but when it lags you realize it IS a dream. It sorta hypes it and yanks it away from you. Next storage purchase regarding "solid-state" memory devices will only include RAM and caches, thanks)

Patience, Rome wasn't built in a day. My SSD experience started with IRAM, dual-irams in raid-0 to be specific, and to say they are a finicky technology is an understatement.

Hard drives will be replaced, the 100x improvement in latency reduction to be gained will see to it. But these early iterations of SSDs are no different than the fits and starts that the automobile industry put their consumers thru while attempting to replace the horse and carriage. It takes time, but the change is inevitable.
 

allthatisman

Senior member
Dec 21, 2008
542
0
0
Well after a few months of owning a G Skill Titan, which is roughly identical to the APEX I have started to get the studders.... initially I was singing the praises of SSD tech in line with my particular purchase. After barely 3 months and regular gaming and internet.. and a transfer of 10 gigs of itunes to the SSD this thing is studder fairly regularly when I use Firefox or IE. I am fairly tired of being on the cutting edge anymore, in fact part of my new financial plan includes no new tech(except for a velociraptor) for a long while. I am REALLY dissapointed with this product at this point... I want my $$ back.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: allthatisman
Well after a few months of owning a G Skill Titan, which is roughly identical to the APEX I have started to get the studders.... initially I was singing the praises of SSD tech in line with my particular purchase. After barely 3 months and regular gaming and internet.. and a transfer of 10 gigs of itunes to the SSD this thing is studder fairly regularly when I use Firefox or IE. I am fairly tired of being on the cutting edge anymore, in fact part of my new financial plan includes no new tech(except for a velociraptor) for a long while. I am REALLY dissapointed with this product at this point... I want my $$ back.

That sucks, sorry to hear of your frustrations and resultant buyer's remorse.

Living on that cutting edge involves getting cut and bleeding a lot.

Don't loose all hope though, the way these drives can be firmware updated and such opens the door for the possibility that as G Skill gets a growing wave of customer complaints they may write a new firmware to help balance out the peak-to-trough performance issues with the drives.
 

allthatisman

Senior member
Dec 21, 2008
542
0
0
Thanks for the words of comfort. I think I will just stick with it for a little while longer, if nothing else I can always go back to the TB Maxtor that has served me well and really got replaced for no real reason other than a new technology that claimed it could be soooo much faster. I think I will give the customer service option a stab, but everything I have seen has told me that they can barely speak English and I am not likely to find any definitive answers. Oh well.....
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: allthatisman
Thanks for the words of comfort. I think I will just stick with it for a little while longer, if nothing else I can always go back to the TB Maxtor that has served me well and really got replaced for no real reason other than a new technology that claimed it could be soooo much faster. I think I will give the customer service option a stab, but everything I have seen has told me that they can barely speak English and I am not likely to find any definitive answers. Oh well.....

You might also be able to flash an OCZ Apex firmware on there if G.Skill doesn't respond.
 

tuan209

Member
May 9, 2004
107
0
76
Wow....this is really giving me 2nd thoughts about my recent purchase of the intel x25-m. Should i return this bad boy? Or hope that intel will release an updated firmware or defrag program for their SSDs.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: tuan209
Wow....this is really giving me 2nd thoughts about my recent purchase of the intel x25-m. Should i return this bad boy? Or hope that intel will release an updated firmware or defrag program for their SSDs.

What do you do with it? What was your pro vs. con table that led you to deciding you needed/wanted the drive before you knew about this one more additional "con" item?

Does the addition of this particular "con" item now tip your decision point to deciding not to buy it (if you could go back in time to before you bought it) despite all the items in your "pro" column?
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
Originally posted by: tuan209
Wow....this is really giving me 2nd thoughts about my recent purchase of the intel x25-m. Should i return this bad boy? Or hope that intel will release an updated firmware or defrag program for their SSDs.

The "defrag" program would need to be initiated by the user and the program would need to be aware of the filesystem of the particular SSD(in this case the X25-M). At the best I'd think you'd get space equal to the space left on your drive(because if they touch the part where the data is it'll clear the data).

So either the drive needs to do it constantly, which will jack up idle power or rely on firmware updates to decrease IOPS and improve performance more suited to PC usage.

I've read from a foreign site of a possibility of them releasing a firmware that increases write speeds from 70MB/s to 120MB/s but I don't know if that was a mistake or merely them pointing out future drives will have that write speed.
 

tuan209

Member
May 9, 2004
107
0
76
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: tuan209
Wow....this is really giving me 2nd thoughts about my recent purchase of the intel x25-m. Should i return this bad boy? Or hope that intel will release an updated firmware or defrag program for their SSDs.

What do you do with it? What was your pro vs. con table that led you to deciding you needed/wanted the drive before you knew about this one more additional "con" item?

Does the addition of this particular "con" item now tip your decision point to deciding not to buy it (if you could go back in time to before you bought it) despite all the items in your "pro" column?

To be quite honest, I just bought the drive out of curiosity. I am using it as my laptop hard drive as I wanted it to match the performance or have the feel of my desktop. It was more of an impulse buy than anything.

Is the wearing an issue only with intel drives or with ssds in general? I may opt for a slower samsung or something if its just a case with intel ssds.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: tuan209
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: tuan209
Wow....this is really giving me 2nd thoughts about my recent purchase of the intel x25-m. Should i return this bad boy? Or hope that intel will release an updated firmware or defrag program for their SSDs.

What do you do with it? What was your pro vs. con table that led you to deciding you needed/wanted the drive before you knew about this one more additional "con" item?

Does the addition of this particular "con" item now tip your decision point to deciding not to buy it (if you could go back in time to before you bought it) despite all the items in your "pro" column?

To be quite honest, I just bought the drive out of curiosity. I am using it as my laptop hard drive as I wanted it to match the performance or have the feel of my desktop. It was more of an impulse buy than anything.

Is the wearing an issue only with intel drives or with ssds in general? I may opt for a slower samsung or something if its just a case with intel ssds.

I can appreciate the impulse buy side of the equation Been there a few times myself (not with SSD's though)

As a laptop drive I think you have the best solution even if the defrag situation isn't resolved. I doubt the performance of your X-25M is ever going to be worse than the performance of a standard 4500rpm or 5400rpm laptop drive on a good day.
 
Aug 28, 2006
175
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I need to take a break from impulse buys too. Most recently, a Kindle II. That is a damn cool gadget though.

Anyways, when should I expect my x25-m to start faltering? Only had it a few weeks and it's behaved perfectly an an OS drive so far with approximately 95% space used up. My Titan is doing well as my game drive.
 

Old Hippie

Diamond Member
Oct 8, 2005
6,361
1
0
Well after a few months of owning a G Skill Titan, which is roughly identical to the APEX I have started to get the studders....

Mine's used at least 8 hrs. a day and I haven't noticed anything....yet.

Other than boot speed, I really can't tell the difference between this drive and my single 80GB VR.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: tuan209
I may opt for a slower samsung or something if its just a case with intel ssds.

Everybody seems to say the intel is still a lot better.
I was considering the Corsair which is $30 cheaper and 48GB bigger but it was only available from Newegg (which has NO RMA policy for SSDs). Amazon has 30 day price matching and a great RMA policy ... so that swayed me.

Originally posted by: Idontcare I doubt the performance of your X-25M is ever going to be worse than the performance of a standard 4500rpm or 5400rpm laptop drive on a good day.

With really fast 7,200rpm laptop hdds being dirt cheap now, those set the speed standard the SSDs have to surpass.

 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: coolVariable
With really fast 7,200rpm laptop hdds being dirt cheap now, those set the speed standard the SSDs have to surpass.

Ah, had not followed the market penetration for the 7200rpm'ers, if they are standard then yeah they set the bar.

A 7200 rpm 2.5" drive is basically a short-stroked 3.5" drive, so if anything I'd expect the access times for the laptop drives to be even better than their desktop brethren. (bandwidth should be less though, as normally a short-stroked drive uses the outer-tracks not the inner-tracks so the linear databit speed is much higher at 7200rpm)
 

tuan209

Member
May 9, 2004
107
0
76
Originally posted by: coolVariable
Originally posted by: tuan209
I may opt for a slower samsung or something if its just a case with intel ssds.

Everybody seems to say the intel is still a lot better.
I was considering the Corsair which is $30 cheaper and 48GB bigger but it was only available from Newegg (which has NO RMA policy for SSDs). Amazon has 30 day price matching and a great RMA policy ... so that swayed me.

I had the Corsair before I bought the Intel; I sold it to test the Intel =D. In all honesty, I dont notice a drastic difference between the two, at least for how I use my laptop (web browsing, school work, mp3s, etc..).

I too bought my Intel drive from Amazon, so I am thinking about returning it.


btw.. If you are curious, I am using the SSDs in my Lenovo x200.
 
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