There's always a range of opinions on stuff like this. And no doubt DJT lied his fucken ass off, but there is no universe where that debate was a "tie" with no winners. I don't quite agree with the media frenzy that immediately ensued (my lasting memory is Van Jones looking like his mom just died), but Biden's performance was very bad. If you compare Trump's night to their first debate in 2020 when he was an unhinged lunatic, he actually had a good night. I realize that's "grading on a curve," but coupled with Joe's very poor performance, DJT clearly "won" the night. Not so much for you or me who actually care about the truth, but imagine oneself as an "independent" who watched the debate from western PA.