Of Baseballs and Payrolls

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Obviously, having a high payroll helps you win. It doesn't guarantee anything (as shown by the 2004 Yankees), but it helps to have better players. Better players demand higher salaries which equals a higher payroll. But this is my beef: People get upset at George Steinbrenner for doing what he does, and accuse him of trying to "buy" a championship. It's just good business. In baseball, winning equals profit, because that brings in the fans, sells tickets, gets higher TV contracts because more people want to watch a winning team, sells more merchandise, etc. etc. Why can't other owners try the same thing? There are plenty of owners who are more wealthy than George, but aren't willing to make that investment. They need to quit whining because they don't want to spend. The Yankees were able to start their own TV network because of the amount of fans that their winning years brought in. And how did they win? Through spending money. Other teams can do it to, they just don't want to.

Now I realize there are teams in smaller markets that even if they are successful will never have Yankee type profits. They need to spend more to compete. If they can't or won't, they need to close up shop, just like in any other business. But realize too, that it's not all about market size. Ask any Met fan.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Obviously, having a high payroll helps you win. It doesn't guarantee anything (as shown by the 2004 Yankees), but it helps to have better players. Better players demand higher salaries which equals a higher payroll. But this is my beef: People get upset at George Steinbrenner for doing what he does, and accuse him of trying to "buy" a championship. It's just good business. In baseball, winning equals profit, because that brings in the fans, sells tickets, gets higher TV contracts because more people want to watch a winning team, sells more merchandise, etc. etc. Why can't other owners try the same thing? There are plenty of owners who are more wealthy than George, but aren't willing to make that investment. They need to quit whining because they don't want to spend. The Yankees were able to start their own TV network because of the amount of fans that their winning years brought in. And how did they win? Through spending money. Other teams can do it to, they just don't want to.

Now I realize there are teams in smaller markets that even if they are successful will never have Yankee type profits. They need to spend more to compete. If they can't or won't, they need to close up shop, just like in any other business. But realize too, that it's not all about market size. Ask any Met fan.
Yes I agree to an extent. A higher payroll statistically increases a team's odds of making the playoffs, but nothing more (it's been proven).

While I think spending more will increase the fan base, there is a threshold that is reached where overspending occurs which really hurts other teams. Why? Because a 5% increase over what a player is worth may not be much to George, but it sure is a lot to teams like Oakland, Minnesota. For instance, Kevin Brown. They paid him 15.7 mil which was way above his market value, and exponentially inflated overall salaries for a number 1 or 2 starter. Now, what do you think Mulder is gonna want next year? He will pull out his analysis graphs and show that Kevin Brown is making 15.7, and Vazquez 10 mil, so he wants somewhere in that range. Oakland will tell him to f off that's over what he's worth, and he will go to a big market team that will now pay him the money. So while I commend what NY is doing, they are also hurting baseball by overpaying players like Bernie Williams, Brown, Vazquez, and bullpen guys like Heredia.

This is why a hard cap would be great, George could not inflate market price through the roof, but could invest the money elsewhere like Yankee Stadium renovations, or invest more of the money in NY's minor league system. Think about how sweet bringing your laptop to the game would be, and getting wireless access where you could order a beer/nachos/pizza right to your seat. Sounds good, right? Well the SF Giants have had this for awhile Overall I think a hard cap would solve everything, George may not be able to spend spend spend but could still invest in better marketing, maybe a Yankee TV NETWORK CHANNEL instead of just a TV contract. The possibilities are endless. At the same time, the small market teams could catch up talent wise, and interest in baseball as a whole would be elevated.

Edit: One other thing I thought of as well, is that you are probably wrong when you say that smaller market teams should just "spend more money". George doesn't spend a dime of his own money, all of the player's salaries/OH costs come out of Yankee revenues. Now if you said that yes, at a point in time in the past, George opened up the wallet to his bank account, and spent millions of his own money to get the team to where it is today, then that's different (and I don't know if he did that). But the fact of the matter is, most teams only spend what they make in revenue for salaries, George is no different. But there is a point where, as a fan, you would love for the owner to just open up that wallet and take the plunge. ATM, it's also a lot easier to do in baseball b/c there isn't a hard cap...

 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
10,005
0
76
amen to this thread.

now just find a way for thick headed boston fans to grasp this concept cuz i'm sick of hearing it as there only excuse.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Mets suck, Orioles suck, both have a lot of dough.

In my opinion, when Georgie boy was banned from baseball for those few years, that actually allowed the Yankees to build a farm system and not try and go for the top-tier veteran free agents. That allowed the Yankees talented scouts and farm system do their work, and left them with an awesome core of players. George's win now attitude rather than franchise building is harming them. It finally caught up with them, no pitching, no chemistry.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: ducksoup0
I would like to see Steinbrenner invest in bringing down the price of beer at the stadium.
If there was a hard cap, guaranteed prices of food/beer/tix would not be high anymore. Most of it goes to paying off that 180 mil...

 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: ducksoup0
I would like to see Steinbrenner invest in bringing down the price of beer at the stadium.
If there was a hard cap, guaranteed prices of food/beer/tix would not be high anymore. Most of it goes to paying off that 180 mil...

One of the reasons the small market teams don't want a cap is that when georgie or anyone goes an a ridiculous spending spree, the small market teams get a % of how much he goes over a threshold, I forget what it is. Georgie pays a tax on his high payroll, and small market teams benefit.
 

raystorm

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
4,712
2
0
I agree with the OP. High payroll can only help so much.. Yanks haven't won diddly squat since 2000 and their payroll continues to balloon.

As for my fav team, the Mets...they have plenty of money but make idiotic decisions. They need smart people running that club but who knows when that'll happen. The Mets payroll may get alot bigger in the coming years as they will have their own network ala the Yankees in 2006. Not that it would help bring the Mets any championships but it wont hurt.

As for the Yankees payroll for next year..I wonder how much bigger it'll get cause we all know that Mr. Beltran will be a yankee and will command a high price (he'll "talk" to other teams just to fatten up his potential contract).
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: KMDupont64
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: ducksoup0
I would like to see Steinbrenner invest in bringing down the price of beer at the stadium.
If there was a hard cap, guaranteed prices of food/beer/tix would not be high anymore. Most of it goes to paying off that 180 mil...

One of the reasons the small market teams don't want a cap is that when georgie or anyone goes an a ridiculous spending spree, the small market teams get a % of how much he goes over a threshold, I forget what it is. Georgie pays a tax on his high payroll, and small market teams benefit.
Yes, it's a luxury tax that taxes 50% of every dollar spent over 130 (?) million. Hence, George had to pay roughly 25 million in taxes to smaller teams... Since if was just implemented this year, don't know how effective it will be. I think it will help, but if all of that money is getting split to 8 teams or more then it's really just chump change, 4 mil apiece (or less). You can't even buy a superstar with money.
 

isekii

Lifer
Mar 16, 2001
28,578
3
81
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Obviously, having a high payroll helps you win. It doesn't guarantee anything (as shown by the 2004 Yankees), but it helps to have better players. Better players demand higher salaries which equals a higher payroll. But this is my beef: People get upset at George Steinbrenner for doing what he does, and accuse him of trying to "buy" a championship. It's just good business. In baseball, winning equals profit, because that brings in the fans, sells tickets, gets higher TV contracts because more people want to watch a winning team, sells more merchandise, etc. etc. Why can't other owners try the same thing? There are plenty of owners who are more wealthy than George, but aren't willing to make that investment. They need to quit whining because they don't want to spend. The Yankees were able to start their own TV network because of the amount of fans that their winning years brought in. And how did they win? Through spending money. Other teams can do it to, they just don't want to.

Now I realize there are teams in smaller markets that even if they are successful will never have Yankee type profits. They need to spend more to compete. If they can't or won't, they need to close up shop, just like in any other business. But realize too, that it's not all about market size. Ask any Met fan.
Yes I agree to an extent. A higher payroll statistically increases a team's odds of making the playoffs, but nothing more (it's been proven).

While I think spending more will increase the fan base, there is a threshold that is reached where overspending occurs which really hurts other teams. Why? Because a 5% increase over what a player is worth may not be much to George, but it sure is a lot to teams like Oakland, Minnesota. For instance, Kevin Brown. They paid him 15.7 mil which was way above his market value, and exponentially inflated overall salaries for a number 1 or 2 starter. Now, what do you think Mulder is gonna want next year? He will pull out his analysis graphs and show that Kevin Brown is making 15.7, and Vazquez 10 mil, so he wants somewhere in that range. Oakland will tell him to f off that's over what he's worth, and he will go to a big market team that will now pay him the money. So while I commend what NY is doing, they are also hurting baseball by overpaying players like Bernie Williams, Brown, Vazquez, and bullpen guys like Heredia.

This is why a hard cap would be great, George could not inflate market price through the roof, but could invest the money elsewhere like Yankee Stadium renovations, or invest more of the money in NY's minor league system. Think about how sweet bringing your laptop to the game would be, and getting wireless access where you could order a beer/nachos/pizza right to your seat. Sounds good, right? Well the SF Giants have had this for awhile Overall I think a hard cap would solve everything, George may not be able to spend spend spend but could still invest in better marketing, maybe a Yankee TV NETWORK CHANNEL instead of just a TV contract. The possibilities are endless. At the same time, the small market teams could catch up talent wise, and interest in baseball as a whole would be elevated.

Edit: One other thing I thought of as well, is that you are probably wrong when you say that smaller market teams should just "spend more money". George doesn't spend a dime of his own money, all of the player's salaries/OH costs come out of Yankee revenues. Now if you said that yes, at a point in time in the past, George opened up the wallet to his bank account, and spent millions of his own money to get the team to where it is today, then that's different (and I don't know if he did that). But the fact of the matter is, most teams only spend what they make in revenue for salaries, George is no different. But there is a point where, as a fan, you would love for the owner to just open up that wallet and take the plunge. ATM, it's also a lot easier to do in baseball b/c there isn't a hard cap...


It was a great Series, Boston definitely deserved it winning all 4 games.
And Damon had redeemed himself.

See you next year. I have a feeling we'll pick up Beltran and Soriano.
 

PoPPeR

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2002
6,993
0
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: KMDupont64
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: ducksoup0
I would like to see Steinbrenner invest in bringing down the price of beer at the stadium.
If there was a hard cap, guaranteed prices of food/beer/tix would not be high anymore. Most of it goes to paying off that 180 mil...

One of the reasons the small market teams don't want a cap is that when georgie or anyone goes an a ridiculous spending spree, the small market teams get a % of how much he goes over a threshold, I forget what it is. Georgie pays a tax on his high payroll, and small market teams benefit.
Yes, it's a luxury tax that taxes 50% of every dollar spent over 130 (?) million. Hence, George had to pay roughly 25 million in taxes to smaller teams... Since if was just implemented this year, don't know how effective it will be. I think it will help, but if all of that money is getting split to 8 teams or more then it's really just chump change, 4 mil apiece (or less). You can't even buy a superstar with money.
why should steinbrenner buy a superstar for every mlb team?
 

Ranger X

Lifer
Mar 18, 2000
11,218
1
0
130M for Red Sox isn't exactly pocket change either. I hate how the Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees when they themselves have a high payroll. Granted it's no where near 190M but it's still well above the league average.
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
Originally posted by: Ranger X
130M for Red Sox isn't exactly pocket change either. I hate how the Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees when they themselves have a high payroll. Granted it's no where near 190M but it's still well above the league average.

Red Sox fans used to tote the fact that the Yankees always buy championchips, but now that we're spending enough to be 2nd in the league, we don't bring it up as often from what I've seen
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: PoPPeR
why should steinbrenner buy a superstar for every mlb team?
Well he doesn't have to do anything of the sort, but it would definitely level the playing field a little more. If George goes out and buys 3-4 superstars, don't you think every small market team should get 1? George would still be ahead, but the little guys' fans still have someone to go out and watch. For instance, KC fans. Who in the world would you go to see play for the Royals? Joe Randa? Mike Sweeney (maybe)? Beltran was their last big superstar and the face of the of the franchise, now they have been pillaged again (first was Johnny Damon) by the bigger fish.

EDit: And how about the Twins? Johan Santana, and the CF Torii Hunter, that's about it. Radke, Koskie, and Jaque Jones are decent but not exactly guys that pack the seats.

 

isasir

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
8,609
0
0
Originally posted by: Ranger X
130M for Red Sox isn't exactly pocket change either. I hate how the Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees when they themselves have a high payroll. Granted it's no where near 190M but it's still well above the league average.

The Red Sox and Yankees two of the most evenly matched teams. They each won about 50% of the time during the season and in the playoffs. The fact that one payroll is $60million less though I think is significant. $60million is the approximate cost of ARod, Jeter, Sheffield, Matsui and Mariano this year.

Arguably, if the Yankees and Marlins had played 20 games or more against each other last year, my money is on the Yankees. The Marlins were just better in the playoffs.

The Mets, my team of choice, just has horrendous management and made a lot of bad decisions. Hell, their top performers are their rookies and of course next year likely would be 10x better if they kept their best pitching prospect, Kazmir, as well.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: KMDupont64
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: ducksoup0
I would like to see Steinbrenner invest in bringing down the price of beer at the stadium.
If there was a hard cap, guaranteed prices of food/beer/tix would not be high anymore. Most of it goes to paying off that 180 mil...

One of the reasons the small market teams don't want a cap is that when georgie or anyone goes an a ridiculous spending spree, the small market teams get a % of how much he goes over a threshold, I forget what it is. Georgie pays a tax on his high payroll, and small market teams benefit.
Yes, it's a luxury tax that taxes 50% of every dollar spent over 130 (?) million. Hence, George had to pay roughly 25 million in taxes to smaller teams... Since if was just implemented this year, don't know how effective it will be. I think it will help, but if all of that money is getting split to 8 teams or more then it's really just chump change, 4 mil apiece (or less). You can't even buy a superstar with money.

4 Mil for the twins/royals/etc is a big deal, thats why they aren't exactly begging for a salary cap.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: PoPPeR
why should steinbrenner buy a superstar for every mlb team?
Well he doesn't have to do anything of the sort, but it would definitely level the playing field a little more. If George goes out and buys 3-4 superstars, don't you think every small market team should get 1? George would still be ahead, but the little guys' fans still have someone to go out and watch. For instance, KC fans. Who in the world would you go to see play for the Royals? Joe Randa? Mike Sweeney (maybe)? Beltran was their last big superstar and the face of the of the franchise, now they have been pillaged again (first was Johnny Damon) by the bigger fish.

EDit: And how about the Twins? Johan Santana, and the CF Torii Hunter, that's about it. Radke, Koskie, and Jaque Jones are decent but not exactly guys that pack the seats.

We live in a capitalist society, not a socialist one. Because George is willing to shell out the bucks doesn't mean he has to pay for another team to get theirs. It's unamerican!
 

geecee

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2003
2,383
43
91
As an aside, baseball is one sport where you can spend a lot of money on your team and all those players can contribute nearly equally (assuming you spend intelligently and don't overstock players at the same positions). This is not as true in other sports. In basketball and football, there's only one ball to go around (at least offensively) and you end up creating all sorts of distribution problems in terms of who gets the ball (i.e. the LA Lakers this year, or as a hypothetical example, having Travis Henry and Willis McGahee on the same Bills team). If you sign nine superstar players and 4 superstar pitchers, they will all contribute without worrying about playing time or ball distribution, etc. In that sense, baseball can be somewhat different financially.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: PoPPeR
why should steinbrenner buy a superstar for every mlb team?
Well he doesn't have to do anything of the sort, but it would definitely level the playing field a little more. If George goes out and buys 3-4 superstars, don't you think every small market team should get 1? George would still be ahead, but the little guys' fans still have someone to go out and watch. For instance, KC fans. Who in the world would you go to see play for the Royals? Joe Randa? Mike Sweeney (maybe)? Beltran was their last big superstar and the face of the of the franchise, now they have been pillaged again (first was Johnny Damon) by the bigger fish.

EDit: And how about the Twins? Johan Santana, and the CF Torii Hunter, that's about it. Radke, Koskie, and Jaque Jones are decent but not exactly guys that pack the seats.

We live in a capitalist society, not a socialist one. Because George is willing to shell out the bucks doesn't mean he has to pay for another team to get theirs. It's unamerican!

I guess george is just going to play with himself and then he can be assured to buy the championship.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: PoPPeR
why should steinbrenner buy a superstar for every mlb team?
Well he doesn't have to do anything of the sort, but it would definitely level the playing field a little more. If George goes out and buys 3-4 superstars, don't you think every small market team should get 1? George would still be ahead, but the little guys' fans still have someone to go out and watch. For instance, KC fans. Who in the world would you go to see play for the Royals? Joe Randa? Mike Sweeney (maybe)? Beltran was their last big superstar and the face of the of the franchise, now they have been pillaged again (first was Johnny Damon) by the bigger fish.

EDit: And how about the Twins? Johan Santana, and the CF Torii Hunter, that's about it. Radke, Koskie, and Jaque Jones are decent but not exactly guys that pack the seats.

We live in a capitalist society, not a socialist one. Because George is willing to shell out the bucks doesn't mean he has to pay for another team to get theirs. It's unamerican!

I guess george is just going to play with himself and then he can be assured to buy the championship.

Thanks for that insight, :roll:
 

Shlong

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2002
3,130
59
91
Yanks need to solidify their pitching & players like Brocious, Tino, and Paul O'Neil. That was the Ultimate team & played better in the postseason, instead of prima donna superstars like A-rod, Giambi, & Sheff.
 

Gurck

Banned
Mar 16, 2004
12,963
1
0
Originally posted by: KMDupont64
Mets suck, Orioles suck, both have a lot of dough.

In my opinion, when Georgie boy was banned from baseball for those few years, that actually allowed the Yankees to build a farm system and not try and go for the top-tier veteran free agents. That allowed the Yankees talented scouts and farm system do their work, and left them with an awesome core of players. George's win now attitude rather than franchise building is harming them. It finally caught up with them, no pitching, no chemistry.

Dead-on assessment, good post.

As for the OP, I dunno... I would agree to a salary cap, which goes in line with KMDupont64's post - it would force strategy rather than blindly throwing money at teams. People who hate the Yankees' payroll are really saying they want a salary cap... Ones who hate the Yankees for it, though, are simply jealous.
 

rsd

Platinum Member
Dec 30, 2003
2,293
0
76
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: PoPPeR
why should steinbrenner buy a superstar for every mlb team?
Well he doesn't have to do anything of the sort, but it would definitely level the playing field a little more. If George goes out and buys 3-4 superstars, don't you think every small market team should get 1? George would still be ahead, but the little guys' fans still have someone to go out and watch. For instance, KC fans. Who in the world would you go to see play for the Royals? Joe Randa? Mike Sweeney (maybe)? Beltran was their last big superstar and the face of the of the franchise, now they have been pillaged again (first was Johnny Damon) by the bigger fish.

EDit: And how about the Twins? Johan Santana, and the CF Torii Hunter, that's about it. Radke, Koskie, and Jaque Jones are decent but not exactly guys that pack the seats.

We live in a capitalist society, not a socialist one. Because George is willing to shell out the bucks doesn't mean he has to pay for another team to get theirs. It's unamerican!

The most popular sport in the USA, the National Football League, says Hi!
 

jocycliff

Senior member
Apr 8, 2001
789
0
0
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Obviously, having a high payroll helps you win. It doesn't guarantee anything (as shown by the 2004 Yankees), but it helps to have better players. Better players demand higher salaries which equals a higher payroll. But this is my beef: People get upset at George Steinbrenner for doing what he does, and accuse him of trying to "buy" a championship. It's just good business. In baseball, winning equals profit, because that brings in the fans, sells tickets, gets higher TV contracts because more people want to watch a winning team, sells more merchandise, etc. etc. Why can't other owners try the same thing? There are plenty of owners who are more wealthy than George, but aren't willing to make that investment. They need to quit whining because they don't want to spend. The Yankees were able to start their own TV network because of the amount of fans that their winning years brought in. And how did they win? Through spending money. Other teams can do it to, they just don't want to.

Now I realize there are teams in smaller markets that even if they are successful will never have Yankee type profits. They need to spend more to compete. If they can't or won't, they need to close up shop, just like in any other business. But realize too, that it's not all about market size. Ask any Met fan.

So small market teams should just suck it up and spend. You can't run a business that way what makes you think an owner wants to do it. Baseball money doesn't come from fans going to the games. It comes from the TV revenue. The Yankees have the name to sell TV rights not only in the northeast but also places like Japan. Where that is the most popular team there and make fat jack from that TV contract.

The problem is baseball. You know what America's past time is. Football. Why? Because every team might have a chance. Revenue is shared equally. Thus Green Bay who barely have enough people to fill the stadium (population wise, not fan base) have an equal chance to sign free agents.

No matter what the Yankees, Red Sock, Angels, Braves and the rest need the Kansas City, Milwakees, Minnasotas to play games against.

Uninformed people should read Bob Costas's book Fair Ball : A Fan's Case for Baseball
 
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