Off-Site Back Up solution, not through a *.com

[MangoTBG]

Short back ground story:

I've been asked by my step-father to help him get a back up solution for his office. There are four computers at his office, all of which he'd like to have backed up.

Now from searching I'm sure there's going to be a few people that come in here and say "no, no, no...don't get NAS!" and suggest I make a server because it's cheaper, more powerful etc. etc. Now if it's my only option, then I guess I have to hear that out, but It's my understanding that NAS should work just fine.

The NAS I'm sure I'd be able to take care of on my own, where I'm unsure of is if I want to have the NAS back up to an off-site location (our home).

Trying to search for software that does this is kind of defeating with all of the mozy's and what-not out there. "off-site back up solution" turns up stuff like offsitebackupsolution.com where we'd have to pay for the data to be stored on their servers.

Some Details:

• The entirety of what will be backed up may be no more then 100 GB.

• Both locations have moderate Cable connections: 10 MBit Download / 5 MBit Upload

• All computers in question are running XP SP3.

• Ideally a second NAS will be set up at home to receive the back ups.

So, my questions:

1) Any suggestions on NAS's? I've always had a crush on Drobos, but since this really isn't about me I'd feel bad suggesting that if there's a cheaper/more sensible solution.

2) What software will be able to accomplish this set up? Open Source would be preferred, but not required

Thank you for your time and any help given!

 

[Elixer]

There are many options for the hardware, here is a list, www.freenas.org/index.php?option=com_openwiki&Itemid=30&id=freenas_users_hardware but for the software, I have heard nice things about FreeNas (www.freenas.org).

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Elixer
There are many options for the hardware, here is a list, www.freenas.org/index.php?opti...freenas_users_hardware but for the software, I have heard nice things about FreeNas (www.freenas.org).

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: MangoTBG

• The entirety of what will be backed up may be no more then 100 GB.

• Both locations have moderate Cable connections: 10 MBit Download / 5 MBit Upload

Is it just me or does 100GB over a 5Mbit upload sound like it will take a looooooong time? Forget about nightly backups that way.

Just do nightly backups to a server/NAS and then do a backup of the server/NAS once a week to an external HDD that your step-father brings home. Have a few of them and use them on a rotation.

 

[RebateMonger]

Put in a Windows Home Server (WHS) for making daily automatic full image backups of all the PCs in the office. That'll give you easy restores of the entire PC, or of a single file, from multiple dates from last night to last week, to last month.

And buy at least two one-Terabyte external hard drives ($100 each or so). Rotate them at the office and home. Make weekly backups of the backup database to one of the external drives and take it home. The database backups can be made manually, with an Add-in for WHS to back up the "backup data base", or could be done with a scheduled batch file on the WHS service.

When done this way, onsite backups of the PCs will be created automatically and everyone will be warned if their backups aren't working for some reason. It'll still be up to a human to take an external drive offsite once a week, but you can't avoid that if you don't want to use online backups.

Under this scenario, the worst-case scenario is to lose a day's worth of work on a PC if you lose a PC's hard drive. A full restoration of any PC, from an empty hard drive, will likely take less than an hour, rather than the days it can take to find Activation Keys, installation disks, re-install Windows, re-install all of the programs, and restore all the data and email.

If the office is robbed or burns down, you could lose up to a week of data if you are swapping out external drives once a week. But losing a week is FAR better than what happens at most small offices when they have such a disaster.

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
Under this scenario, the worst-case scenario is to lose a day's worth of work on a PC if you lose a PC's hard drive. A full restoration of any PC, from an empty hard drive, will likely take less than an hour, rather than the days it can take to find Activation Keys, installation disks, re-install Windows, re-install all of the programs, and restore all the data and email.

If the office is robbed or burns down, you could lose up to a week of data if you are swapping out external drives once a week.

RebateMonger, you know there are members here that will ask the inevitable question...
"I don't want to lose ANY data. How can I have 100% protection?"

Please explain to them the enormous expense and diligence required in this type of backup solution.

 

[drebo]

Originally posted by: Blain
RebateMonger, you know there are members here that will ask the inevitable question...
"I don't want to lose ANY data. How can I have 100% protection?"

Please explain to them the enormous expense and diligence required in this type of backup solution.

BackupEXEC CPS.

In truth, though, this guy's setup is terrible. If he absolutely insists on storing the data on client computers rather than a centralized server, RebateMonger's solution is the cheapest alternative. Backing up 100gb over the interwebs at 5mb is not feasable.

 

[coolVariable]

Wouldn't it be possible to install some P2P software to handle the server backup?
You do the first (big) backup on the LAN so it is fast ... then you take the backup server home and the P2P will only do differential backups (i.e. if something changes it gets backed up over the internet connection). Programs for doing this could be Live Mesh or Live Sync, and I am sure there are others.

Thoughts?

 

[Knavish]

DOH! I should read to the end of the thread before replying. coolVariable beat me to it.
---
If you've got 100GB of server space, why would you ever want to back up the whole thing every night???

DIFFERENTIAL / INCREMENTAL BACKUPS, people.

You could get your baseline backup done by carrying your backup system into the office, and then have it run incrementals over the cable modem at night. If you've got a 5Mbit / sec connection and a 6 hour window for backups, you'll be able to transfer ~13Gbytes. As long as you don't expect more than ~10 or so Gbytes of data to be added to your office systems on a daily basis, this should work fine.

 

[coolVariable]

Originally posted by: Knavish
DOH! I should read to the end of the thread before replying. coolVariable beat me to it.
---
If you've got 100GB of server space, why would you ever want to back up the whole thing every night???

DIFFERENTIAL / INCREMENTAL BACKUPS, people.

You could get your baseline backup done by carrying your backup system into the office, and then have it run incrementals over the cable modem at night. If you've got a 5Mbit / sec connection and a 6 hour window for backups, you'll be able to transfer ~13Gbytes. As long as you don't expect more than ~10 or so Gbytes of data to be added to your office systems on a daily basis, this should work fine.

I would be interested to hear what program people think might be best.
I kind of like Live Mesh although it is such a resource hog.

 

[MangoTBG]

Thank you all for your time and replies!

I would like to research Windows Home Server. I remember hearing about it when it was announced, but I haven't payed much attention to it as of late.

In my own research I've come across Box2Box from Datto. This sounds VERY promising as it is exactly what I had in mind when I first set out to complete this project. I really want something that is "set it and forget it"-level of simplicity. A server might be more customizable and more reliable, but my main concern is ease of use.

I've called them and apparently they are in fact shipping out the pre-orders. I also took the time to complain that they should update their website to say such. I'd really like to see an official review of it before I buy, obviously. However, everything I've read about their previous models seem to be on the positive side.

If anyone here at AT has personal experience with Datto, please speak up!

 

[drebo]

Originally posted by: Knavish
If you've got 100GB of server space, why would you ever want to back up the whole thing every night???

DIFFERENTIAL / INCREMENTAL BACKUPS, people.

Disaster recovery for one. Archiving for two. Version control could be a third reason.

There are tons of reasons to do this, and pretty much any business worth its salt should be willing to spend the ~$500 it costs to put in a basic disk-based backup solution (NovaBACKUP + a couple external hard drives). If you can't afford that, you shouldn't be wasting your money on 10mb/5mb internet connections.

 

[taltamir]

I am at a loss here, from the wording of the op it seems the op thinks there is something called a NAS that is somehow not a server and yet can still transmit data to another nas via the internet.

A server IS a NAS and anything else you want it to be. And if using open source software its free. (you should use open source because its better quality)...

Another form of NAS is a chipset connected to a drive or two with firmware designed to do file sharing like a server would. but that is just a server with crippled capabilities and specialized hardware.

Originally posted by: Knavish
DOH! I should read to the end of the thread before replying. coolVariable beat me to it.
---
If you've got 100GB of server space, why would you ever want to back up the whole thing every night???

DIFFERENTIAL / INCREMENTAL BACKUPS, people.

You could get your baseline backup done by carrying your backup system into the office, and then have it run incrementals over the cable modem at night. If you've got a 5Mbit / sec connection and a 6 hour window for backups, you'll be able to transfer ~13Gbytes. As long as you don't expect more than ~10 or so Gbytes of data to be added to your office systems on a daily basis, this should work fine.

+1

 

[RebateMonger]

No matter what backup solution you choose:

1) Make sure you have a way to monitor the result so you know whether the backups are working properly.
2) Periodically restore some files to make sure that your backups will actually be useful when you need the data.
3) Automate as much as possible. It's a GIVEN that people won't make backups like they should. It's not uncommon to find that the person who's supposed to swap drives and take one home each week has decided that it's not that important.

All backup systems are compromises between equipment and setup cost, labor, and ease of use. And there's always SOME sort of human-dependent component, even if it's just the person who tests the backups monthly or the person who takes the tape or hard drive home each week. Make sure that the humans involved understand how important their job is.

 

[MangoTBG]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
No matter what backup solution you choose:

1) Make sure you have a way to monitor the result so you know whether the backups are working properly.
2) Periodically restore some files to make sure that your backups will actually be useful when you need the data.
3) Automate as much as possible. It's a GIVEN that people won't make backups like they should. It's not uncommon to find that the person who's supposed to swap drives and take one home each week has decided that it's not that important.

All backup systems are compromises between equipment and setup cost, labor, and ease of use. And there's always SOME sort of human-dependent component, even if it's just the person who tests the backups monthly or the person who takes the tape or hard drive home each week. Make sure that the humans involved understand how important their job is.

Thank you very much for your advise. I will make sure to follow through with it. As I'm learning more and more about his needs, it is appearing to me that a solution such as Box 2 Box might work for the best. I'll see if we can hold out until I find some hands-on reviews of the system first. As of right now the "mission critical" stuff is being backed up to an external hard drive and also a USB thumbdrive which being taken home and backed up.

Again, thanks to all of the constructive advise and replies. To those two of you flaming me, your comments would be more useful if you deleted them .

 

[skyking]

I'd build a couple of fileservers with debian and dirvish.
http://www.dirvish.org/
It is an incremental system that uses symlinks to present versions by date, without the huge disk overhead of multiple copies of the same thing.
I use it in several places now with retentions of 30~120 days. I set up a responsible person onsite who can access the backup server and verify and easily restore versions as needed. I've done one full server failure restore with no loss of data, and plenty of single file and directory recoveries.

 

[Knavish]

Originally posted by: drebo

Originally posted by: Knavish
If you've got 100GB of server space, why would you ever want to back up the whole thing every night???

DIFFERENTIAL / INCREMENTAL BACKUPS, people.

Disaster recovery for one. Archiving for two. Version control could be a third reason.

There are tons of reasons to do this, and pretty much any business worth its salt should be willing to spend the ~$500 it costs to put in a basic disk-based backup solution (NovaBACKUP + a couple external hard drives). If you can't afford that, you shouldn't be wasting your money on 10mb/5mb internet connections.

Incremental nightly backups do give nightly version control, archiving, etc. For example look at what skyking posted about dirvish in the previous post.

 

[capeconsultant]

THANK YOU! I have been looking for something like box 2 box forever. Because clients do NOT want to have to do this manually. ANd most other solutions are too complex. I use Vembu software for backup and am really wondering how it will work with this. Just to be able to confidently offer clients an onsite off site method is priceless. With all this hype about offsite remote backup, the poor onsite backup has been marginalized, and yet that is the one that saves the day most often.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: MangoTBG
Again, thanks to all of the constructive advise and replies. To those two of you flaming me, your comments would be more useful if you deleted them .

I've got nothing of value to add to the thread topic, but this sentence caught my attention so I read the entire thread and either the offending posts have been deleted already or maybe you are taking some constructive criticism feedback a bit too personal?

I don't see anything here that is even remotely close to what this forum is capable of generating when it comes to flaming count your blessings

 

[coolVariable]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: MangoTBG
Again, thanks to all of the constructive advise and replies. To those two of you flaming me, your comments would be more useful if you deleted them .

I've got nothing of value to add to the thread topic, but this sentence caught my attention so I read the entire thread and either the offending posts have been deleted already or maybe you are taking some constructive criticism feedback a bit too personal?

I don't see anything here that is even remotely close to what this forum is capable of generating when it comes to flaming count your blessings

I have been following this thread closely and cannot make any sense of this.
Everybody has been incredibly civilized, respectful and HELPFUL.
In fact, that is the first "rude" thing anybody has posted in this topic!

Back on topic: box2box is ridiculously expensive.

 

[skyking]

I was a bit confused at first, but box2box is a combination of hardware AND offsite backup on the web.

 

[coolVariable]

Originally posted by: skyking
I was a bit confused at first, but box2box is a combination of hardware AND offsite backup on the web.

WHS + Live Mesh / Live Sync or some other P2P software seems like a better solution to me.

 

[Knavish]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
WHS + Live Mesh / Live Sync or some other P2P software seems like a better solution to me.

Live Mesh will not work:
1. It is a beta product from microsoft, so it's really more of a toy than something to consider as a backup solution.
2. This is a "cloud computing" product that synchs your Live Mesh data with a server owned by Microsoft. Right now they're letting people have 5 GB of space for free. When this becomes a commercial product, I'm sure they will charge you if you want 100GB. {You can currently pay (monthly) to backup data to the *non beta* Amazon "cloud" service based on your storage and upload / download requirements.}

Live Sync seems to be a utility to synchronize files between to computers that are both connected to the internet. Both computers must be online to sync files. I've never used this, so I'm not sure how it works. I do use Microsoft Office Groove, which seems to do something similar. With Groove, it synchronizes shared folders as soon as they change. Does Live Sync do the same? I don't think Live Sync would make a good backup too either:
1. You don't get any incremental backups. (This means that if a user deletes a file, you will not be able to recover it from yesterday's backup.)
2. Can you schedule when Live Sync is operational? If someone put a bunch of data in the Live Sync folder, would it then put the smackdown on the company's internet connection until it had been synched?

 

[coolVariable]

Originally posted by: Knavish

Originally posted by: coolVariable
WHS + Live Mesh / Live Sync or some other P2P software seems like a better solution to me.

Live Mesh will not work:
1. It is a beta product from microsoft, so it's really more of a toy than something to consider as a backup solution.
2. This is a "cloud computing" product that synchs your Live Mesh data with a server owned by Microsoft. Right now they're letting people have 5 GB of space for free. When this becomes a commercial product, I'm sure they will charge you if you want 100GB. {You can currently pay (monthly) to backup data to the *non beta* Amazon "cloud" service based on your storage and upload / download requirements.}

Live Sync seems to be a utility to synchronize files between to computers that are both connected to the internet. Both computers must be online to sync files. I've never used this, so I'm not sure how it works. I do use Microsoft Office Groove, which seems to do something similar. With Groove, it synchronizes shared folders as soon as they change. Does Live Sync do the same? I don't think Live Sync would make a good backup too either:
1. You don't get any incremental backups. (This means that if a user deletes a file, you will not be able to recover it from yesterday's backup.)
2. Can you schedule when Live Sync is operational? If someone put a bunch of data in the Live Sync folder, would it then put the smackdown on the company's internet connection until it had been synched?

Live Mesh is P2P.

Both processes require the service to run - should be simple to create a batch that starts/stops the service when required.

Would be glad to hear other alternatives from you. So far these two seem to be the best.

 

[Knavish]

Originally posted by: coolVariable

Would be glad to hear other alternatives from you. So far these two seem to be the best.

Sorry i was shooting down ideas and not giving my own. Here's one:

Suppose you only needed to back up your computers to a server *in* the office. If this was the case, WHS would do this easily, right?

The Problem With This: I imagine that the office computers are running on a local network, sharing a cable modem. This means that a WHS box sitting *out* of the office wouldn't be on the local office network.

The Solution: Can't you just make the remote WHS box appear to be on the local office network by using a VPN? You could put a ~$100 router in the office that supports VPN, have the WHS "dial in" to the VPN & do it's normal backup procedure every night.

The first time you backup those 4 desktop systems, you'll want the server to be in the office because the desktops will be copying their entire HD's over to the server. Future backups will just copy over changed blocks of the filesystem, so they will take much less bandwidth.

Personally, I'm a fan of open source & would probably set up some low powered linux based server with something like rsynch or unison or backula. If you don't have much experience with (or care to spend time playing with) open source solutions, the WHS route is probably the way to go.