**Offical 2018-19 WK 4 NFL Q1 Overreaction Time! Pats Suck!!**

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
Yeah, that's fair. It also bugs me that people seem to forget the year they won the it all they were actually better on defense than offense. As much as I love Rodgers, that follow up 2011 season seems to make everyone forget how it happened.

Yeah, all you used to hear was Clay Matthews! Clay Matthews! Clay Matthews! ...but now nothing beyond some State Farm ads. and hell, he's still playing, which is kind of odd for someone of his skill, at that position.

Woodson was on that team, too, right? God damn, Woodson was such a beast, for so long. He still deserves that Heisman over Peyton.
 

PJFrylar

Senior member
Apr 17, 2016
974
617
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Yeah, all you used to hear was Clay Matthews! Clay Matthews! Clay Matthews! ...but now nothing beyond some State Farm ads. and hell, he's still playing, which is kind of odd for someone of his skill, at that position.

Woodson was on that team, too, right? God damn, Woodson was such a beast, for so long. He still deserves that Heisman over Peyton.

Yeah, Woodson was on that team (he left before half with that broken collarbone in the super bowl) . It was really quite a strange year. Like Tramon Williams, all the ups and downs in his career, was really fucking good that year. Matthews and Raji were both in their rookie years (or 2nd year, kinda hard to remember exactly offhand) and about as good as they would ever be. Nick Collins was a good player, his career ended the next year. If I remember correctly, they were like top 5 (maybe 2) in scoring defense that year. The year after they won the super bowl Rodgers went crazy and won MVP, while the defense was terrible. It kind throws a shroud on how that win actually happened.
 
Last edited:
Mar 11, 2004
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Something that I don't think people are taking into considering either. This was not the first time the Broncos played Mahomes, so he didn't catch them off guard. They knew first hand what to expect and came prepared. It showed. It didn't matter.

Huh?, he had 14 TD's and ZERO picks, he most certainly "legit". All QB's would love the ability to throw with that kind of accuracy while running, this is not a "gimmick", it's talent, and gob's of it. Denver already knew he was going to do this and were ready, but he's fast enough to keep out from tackling quickly then burns you with a 18yrd rope-job (while running) on a 3rd and 7.

He's legit, but he does also have to prove himself, for up to 19 games a year, just as Tom Brady and every other QB still has to do. It is a team game too, and as we've seen, an amazing QB definitely makes a big difference but it doesn't guarantee you a Super Bowl win or success. Marino was amazing his first several years, but never got anything to show for it (well one Super Bowl appearance, where he got Montana'ed).

Mahomes looks like he has the poise of the great ones, the scrambling ability of the best of them (and he probably has better accuracy and maybe a stronger arm than all of them while doing it), the throwing ability of the best (not always the accuracy or best placement though...yet, mostly because I feel like he needs to get timing down more and learn to hit guys consistently where they can continue on and get YAC), he's smart enough mentally but has and I think this will become the thing people make note of more and more as they see more, maybe the best vision (its almost more like an extrasensory perception) of a QB, where he sees things that I don't know how you could from his position. He's also flashed this but I don't know that its actually shown up in a game yet, like literally perfect on the mark no look - meaning he literally looks away from the receiver before and while throwing - intermediate passes. Its like he looks that way once to calibrate and can see their trajectory and can look away and throw it so that it gets to them at the right time and position.

It will be every week, that people will be hearing about some amazing play or throw he made. I think I change my opinion, because I think it will be stuff that people won't get sick of because he'll constantly amaze them in some new way where they just can't help but enjoy it. There was a player several years back (he might even still be a backup), I think they nicknamed him trickshot (Alex Tanney or something was his real name) because he was doing all these crazy trick throws while in college (he made YouTube videos). He couldn't really do it live in an NFL game though. Mahomes probably can't do the no-pressure trickshots as well, but he could probably nail them in a live game with pressure.

I think you missed his point. 14 TD with no picks is great and all, but that's the first 4 games of his career. Colin Kaepernick was just as great, just as electrifying, and just as cocky for about 4 games until the obvious was revealed. Until teams adjusted.

...but Rob also mentioned that his accuracy on the run is solid. That is something else. That is a real, legit tool. That is very difficult to adjust to, and will very likely carry him through into absolute "legit" Aaron Rodgers/Drew Brees class.

...but he's still not there. It's simply a matter of experience. Teams will certainly adjust, and this kind of production will not sustain during the season. These are pro organizations with pro talent behind them. Andy Reid is an absolute known commodity, so there really is only so much he can do to keep the kid fresh. Denver handled him really well for one half. Every team watches every other team, so he is going to get contained, it only matters by how much, and how well he adjusts.

We won't know until next season, really, maybe into his 3rd season (if football still exists....), but hey, he's damn exciting right now and he obviously has the tools and the brains to run a solid scheme. But how does he adjust when everyone else does? That's what matters.

The Great Russell Wilson has gobs of pure, absolute talent and brains as well, but if you don't put a pro line in front of that talent to guard against other pros, then that talent is quickly destroyed. I think Wilson is still good, but he's had those seasons behind him and the wear is damn obvious. Feet and talent like that can only carry you so long until the refusal to protect it manifests.

Hell, look at Brady. He hasn't had to move 2 feet in his career. He's still going because he has always had an impenetrable wall in front of him--hell, dude cut his salary just to keep that wall in place. He got hit twice in his career. One of those hits ended his season. Now he just gives up when runners are close. Let's see how Mahomes does after taking 2 or 3 seasons worth of Russell Wilson hits.


....of course, I say all this at the burgeoning of the era when you aren't allowed to touch the QB...so who knows, lol? He may be the first superstar all-tool QB that lasts more than 5 seasons.

Superstar all tool? Why are you acting like Mahomes is some running QB? Mahomes runs about like Roethlisberger or Rodgers (he might even run less than them, but he's running to pass, not to run; he runs less than Alex Smith, Kaepernick, let alone RG3 or Tebow or Vick). I think he's stouter than Rodgers (and Wilson), and he's not as stupid as Roethlisberger (hopefully he keeps from crashing a motorcycle...oh and "allegedly" trying to rape people). Did you guys see Mahomes just brush that rusher aside on one of the plays against the Broncos? (It was on an incomplete pass to the back of the end zone so it didn't get shown a bunch.) And he's thrown (good passes) while being tackled (last year against the Broncos, he shimmied just enough to stay upright while the guy was wrapping up his legs and throw a perfect pass 25 yards for a first down).

https://imgur.com/6SSUOV2

Brady had an impenetrable wall? I still personally think Brady is doing stuff like getting stem cell treatments and/or HGH or blood transfusion stuff, probably outside the country and in secret; I definitely am not buying his explanation of oh he changed his diet and does yoga now. But, he's taken hits and gotten beaten up in games a good amount, even somewhat recently (I remember watching some game from the past few years and cringing at how much and some of the hits he was taking, but he kept getting up and it didn't seem to be messing with him too much - I seem to recall he adjusted and started getting the ball out and tore the team to pieces in the second half and he still took hits).

The Chiefs line isn't that bad. Its better than the one Wilson has been behind for years. I disagree, I think Wilson would be fine if he didn't still have a bad line and little offensive talent around him. Even then he consistently plays well if not outright good to great. If Wilson was on the Chiefs, he'd be doing very well (he'd have done better than Alex Smith the past couple of years). I think Mahomes could be better than Wilson (has more size, is more stout, bigger arm, and I think he has more field vision than just about any QB I've ever seen).

We won't know how good he is til his career is over, so why say next year, or year 3? There are QBs that have played great for several years but never really got anything meaningful (Moon, Cunningham, Jim Kelly, Boomer Esiason; hell Elway was that way until they loaded that team up and got probably the best two years out of a running back in all NFL history). And sure he could be elite but not win much of anything if its squandered on bad teams/etc. You won't be able to compare his stats, because he's growing up solely in the new era so I think that will quickly become futile. I don't know, maybe they'll bring back bump and run or something to try to equalize things for defenses, but doubt it.

Barring major injury (I hope Luck can get back to his full physical potential), people expecting Mahomes to start playing worse are going to be in for a surprise (that doesn't mean more crazy TD numbers, no turnovers ever, let alone never losing; nor does it mean that defenses won't figure some way of mitigating his talent). His mental ability is probably as sharp if not sharper than his physical skills. And he's basically just started really learning (I think he's someone that learns by doing, so the more he plays the more he'll learn and improve). Its like he processes the game (meaning the heat of the moment during plays) at some next level.

I think Reid actually made Mahomes look worse than he is in the Broncos game. The playcalling for most of the first 3 quarters was not great (too much of those motion/gadget plays), but Reid kept trying to make it work when it largely wasn't and so they didn't get the offense timing and rhythm going until about the 4th quarter). Denver handled the Chiefs offense quite well, and they deserve credit, but I think if Reid had come out running and then start doing play action and screens, the Chiefs would have tore the Broncos aggressiveness to shreds, and I think that would've opened up something deep; basically if they'd have run something like the gameplan they did against the Patriots in the opener last year).

I agree with that. He very well could be better than all of those at that. But he's not a one-trick pony either. You remember (or did you even see) that bomb he threw in preseason? He threw that while stepping up a bit in the pocket while pressure was collapsing in on him. His arm will let him make plays he should know better than to try, and he'll have to adjust to that with age. Which, hey, maybe he'll have Favre's longevity (and keep his arm strength similarly). He doesn't have the pinpoint accuracy of Brees, but he can place the ball in windows that I don't think Brees ever could (not a knock against Brees; I don't think people have seen it yet, but there's throws he made last year, I think in the preseason, where its like a sinker or a curve ball in baseball, where the ball changes trajectory like 2/3 of the way there, so he can throw it and it looks like its just a straight heat, but then it curves or sinks right to the receiver). I don't believe we've even seen that fully yet. We're going to see some insane crazy throws from him. I think the "showtime" nickname isn't a good fit, he's a fucking wizard and people are going to struggle to describe what he does. And he'll make it look easy, so average people won't be able to see why it was amazing.

Which with Wilson and now Mahomes, I think we'll see a move to consider baseball pitching prospects a lot. I know Elway was one too.

While I still think Kaepernick was/is better than you give him credit for, he was not close to what Mahomes has done, stats or eye test wise (seriously go back to that Denver game from last year, Mahomes threw zero TDs and 1 INT, and I don't think he even topped 300 yards, and percentage wise it wasn't great, but he led a comeback, and just watching him you could tell he was special). Actually you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. That Packers playoff game was like the 8th game Kaep started.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
Something that I don't think people are taking into considering either. This was not the first time the Broncos played Mahomes, so he didn't catch them off guard. They knew first hand what to expect and came prepared. It showed. It didn't matter.



He's legit, but he does also have to prove himself, for up to 19 games a year, just as Tom Brady and every other QB still has to do. It is a team game too, and as we've seen, an amazing QB definitely makes a big difference but it doesn't guarantee you a Super Bowl win or success. Marino was amazing his first several years, but never got anything to show for it (well one Super Bowl appearance, where he got Montana'ed).

Mahomes looks like he has the poise of the great ones, the scrambling ability of the best of them (and he probably has better accuracy and maybe a stronger arm than all of them while doing it), the throwing ability of the best (not always the accuracy or best placement though...yet, mostly because I feel like he needs to get timing down more and learn to hit guys consistently where they can continue on and get YAC), he's smart enough mentally but has and I think this will become the thing people make note of more and more as they see more, maybe the best vision (its almost more like an extrasensory perception) of a QB, where he sees things that I don't know how you could from his position. He's also flashed this but I don't know that its actually shown up in a game yet, like literally perfect on the mark no look - meaning he literally looks away from the receiver before and while throwing - intermediate passes. Its like he looks that way once to calibrate and can see their trajectory and can look away and throw it so that it gets to them at the right time and position.

It will be every week, that people will be hearing about some amazing play or throw he made. I think I change my opinion, because I think it will be stuff that people won't get sick of because he'll constantly amaze them in some new way where they just can't help but enjoy it. There was a player several years back (he might even still be a backup), I think they nicknamed him trickshot (Alex Tanney or something was his real name) because he was doing all these crazy trick throws while in college (he made YouTube videos). He couldn't really do it live in an NFL game though. Mahomes probably can't do the no-pressure trickshots as well, but he could probably nail them in a live game with pressure.



Superstar all tool? Why are you acting like Mahomes is some running QB? Mahomes runs about like Roethlisberger or Rodgers (he might even run less than them, but he's running to pass, not to run; he runs less than Alex Smith, Kaepernick, let alone RG3 or Tebow or Vick). I think he's stouter than Rodgers (and Wilson), and he's not as stupid as Roethlisberger (hopefully he keeps from crashing a motorcycle...oh and "allegedly" trying to rape people). Did you guys see Mahomes just brush that rusher aside on one of the plays against the Broncos? (It was on an incomplete pass to the back of the end zone so it didn't get shown a bunch.) And he's thrown (good passes) while being tackled (last year against the Broncos, he shimmied just enough to stay upright while the guy was wrapping up his legs and throw a perfect pass 25 yards for a first down).

https://imgur.com/6SSUOV2

Brady had an impenetrable wall? I still personally think Brady is doing stuff like getting stem cell treatments and/or HGH or blood transfusion stuff, probably outside the country and in secret; I definitely am not buying his explanation of oh he changed his diet and does yoga now. But, he's taken hits and gotten beaten up in games a good amount, even somewhat recently (I remember watching some game from the past few years and cringing at how much and some of the hits he was taking, but he kept getting up and it didn't seem to be messing with him too much - I seem to recall he adjusted and started getting the ball out and tore the team to pieces in the second half and he still took hits).

The Chiefs line isn't that bad. Its better than the one Wilson has been behind for years. I disagree, I think Wilson would be fine if he didn't still have a bad line and little offensive talent around him. Even then he consistently plays well if not outright good to great. If Wilson was on the Chiefs, he'd be doing very well (he'd have done better than Alex Smith the past couple of years). I think Mahomes could be better than Wilson (has more size, is more stout, bigger arm, and I think he has more field vision than just about any QB I've ever seen).

We won't know how good he is til his career is over, so why say next year, or year 3? There are QBs that have played great for several years but never really got anything meaningful (Moon, Cunningham, Jim Kelly, Boomer Esiason; hell Elway was that way until they loaded that team up and got probably the best two years out of a running back in all NFL history). And sure he could be elite but not win much of anything if its squandered on bad teams/etc. You won't be able to compare his stats, because he's growing up solely in the new era so I think that will quickly become futile. I don't know, maybe they'll bring back bump and run or something to try to equalize things for defenses, but doubt it.

Barring major injury (I hope Luck can get back to his full physical potential), people expecting Mahomes to start playing worse are going to be in for a surprise (that doesn't mean more crazy TD numbers, no turnovers ever, let alone never losing; nor does it mean that defenses won't figure some way of mitigating his talent). His mental ability is probably as sharp if not sharper than his physical skills. And he's basically just started really learning (I think he's someone that learns by doing, so the more he plays the more he'll learn and improve). Its like he processes the game (meaning the heat of the moment during plays) at some next level.

I think Reid actually made Mahomes look worse than he is in the Broncos game. The playcalling for most of the first 3 quarters was not great (too much of those motion/gadget plays), but Reid kept trying to make it work when it largely wasn't and so they didn't get the offense timing and rhythm going until about the 4th quarter). Denver handled the Chiefs offense quite well, and they deserve credit, but I think if Reid had come out running and then start doing play action and screens, the Chiefs would have tore the Broncos aggressiveness to shreds, and I think that would've opened up something deep; basically if they'd have run something like the gameplan they did against the Patriots in the opener last year).

I agree with that. He very well could be better than all of those at that. But he's not a one-trick pony either. You remember (or did you even see) that bomb he threw in preseason? He threw that while stepping up a bit in the pocket while pressure was collapsing in on him. His arm will let him make plays he should know better than to try, and he'll have to adjust to that with age. Which, hey, maybe he'll have Favre's longevity (and keep his arm strength similarly). He doesn't have the pinpoint accuracy of Brees, but he can place the ball in windows that I don't think Brees ever could (not a knock against Brees; I don't think people have seen it yet, but there's throws he made last year, I think in the preseason, where its like a sinker or a curve ball in baseball, where the ball changes trajectory like 2/3 of the way there, so he can throw it and it looks like its just a straight heat, but then it curves or sinks right to the receiver). I don't believe we've even seen that fully yet. We're going to see some insane crazy throws from him. I think the "showtime" nickname isn't a good fit, he's a fucking wizard and people are going to struggle to describe what he does. And he'll make it look easy, so average people won't be able to see why it was amazing.

Which with Wilson and now Mahomes, I think we'll see a move to consider baseball pitching prospects a lot. I know Elway was one too.

While I still think Kaepernick was/is better than you give him credit for, he was not close to what Mahomes has done, stats or eye test wise (seriously go back to that Denver game from last year, Mahomes threw zero TDs and 1 INT, and I don't think he even topped 300 yards, and percentage wise it wasn't great, but he led a comeback, and just watching him you could tell he was special). Actually you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. That Packers playoff game was like the 8th game Kaep started.

I meant next year or in 3 years, he will either flame out, regress a bit, or not at all and we'll know how good he is in terms of a career QB. He's obviously phenomenal now and should be going forward, if playing in a vacuum. I'm not really all that concerned about judging him on whether or not he wins a SB to define his career. Yes, people like that and it does tend to matter, but I don't think it takes away from his individual skills. Aaron Rodgers already has his, at least, but by all accounts he should probably have more. I think a lot of that is some sloppy coaching late in games and an unwillingness to field a defense that doesn't force the team to score more than 24 points or so per game just to win. Rodgers can probably do that with just about any team in front of him, but he can't do that every week.

I hope you don't think I'm criticizing Wilson today--he is basically my favorite human on the planet --but it's pretty clear that he's lost some of his escapability and he can't do everything when the GM and Carroll have refused to give him a solid, dedicated running game that isn't mostly dependent on him for the last 4 or 5 years. I still wish the Skins would have drafted him. They've had a solid line and running attack for years now, and he would have been devastating on those teams. Instead, they reached for Robert Griffin in that draft in a move which can only be seen as Making the Rams Great Again.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
...but Rob also mentioned that his accuracy on the run is solid. That is something else. That is a real, legit tool. That is very difficult to adjust to, and will very likely carry him through into absolute "legit" Aaron Rodgers/Drew Brees class.

ARod isn't in the elite class anymore. He hasn't thrown for more than 300 yards since week 3 of last year. He's nowhere to be seen on any of the passing statistics leader boards this year - for example he's only averaging 7.2 yards per completion this year which is literally half of what Goff's rate is (hell, even Josh Allen is at a 12.1 yards/completion). Pull up any other QB stat and it's more of the same. Any honest person wouldn't consider him to be a Top 10 QB this year.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,930
5,802
126
ARod isn't in the elite class anymore. He hasn't thrown for more than 300 yards since week 3 of last year. He's nowhere to be seen on any of the passing statistics leader boards this year - for example he's only averaging 7.2 yards per completion this year which is literally half of what Goff's rate is (hell, even Josh Allen is at a 12.1 yards/completion). Pull up any other QB stat and it's more of the same. Any honest person wouldn't consider him to be a Top 10 QB this year.
So after 4 games you've decided a hobbled Rogers isn't a top 10 QB anymore? Are you trying to say you'd take Josh Allen over Aaron Rogers?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
So after 4 games you've decided a hobbled Rogers isn't a top 10 QB anymore? Are you trying to say you'd take Josh Allen over Aaron Rogers?

Health and supporting cast definitely matters. I'd say he isn't a top 10 QB right now. Nor is Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, or some of the others who would have been considered to be "elite" not long ago. Situations change constantly in the NFL and sometimes being talented isn't enough. Hell, look at Foles winning a Super Bowl last year to see how much supporting cast is far more important than strictly comparing "talent" levels. Given their actual circumstance and supporting casts (rather than a theoretical "if he was healthy and had better skill players to throw to" as if we could magically put him on another team) would you really rather say you'd have ARod over Brees or Mahomes right now? IMHO you have to go outside the Mahomes/Brees/Cousins/Goff range and into the Big Ben/Dalton/Rivers range to correctly rank ARod right now. Brady is kinda the odd man out here because it's not atypical for the Pats to start slow and still wind up in the SB due to playing an atrocious division that almost guarantees them a divisional crown but even knowing that it's not out of the question that TB12 is cooked and on the cliff of his career now.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,930
5,802
126
So you ARE saying you would take Josh Allen over Rogers. I think you are alone with that one.

I also never heard anyone really say Luck or Wilson were close to the Elite level. They simply don't have close to a sample size of playing well as someone of Rogers caliber. I think most people outside of Seattle homers know that Wilson wasn't doing much of what he did by himself.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
I think you missed his point. 14 TD with no picks is great and all, but that's the first 4 games of his career. Colin Kaepernick was just as great, just as electrifying, and just as cocky for about 4 games until the obvious was revealed. Until teams adjusted.

...but Rob also mentioned that his accuracy on the run is solid. That is something else. That is a real, legit tool. That is very difficult to adjust to, and will very likely carry him through into absolute "legit" Aaron Rodgers/Drew Brees class.

...but he's still not there. It's simply a matter of experience. Teams will certainly adjust, and this kind of production will not sustain during the season. These are pro organizations with pro talent behind them. Andy Reid is an absolute known commodity, so there really is only so much he can do to keep the kid fresh. Denver handled him really well for one half. Every team watches every other team, so he is going to get contained, it only matters by how much, and how well he adjusts.

We won't know until next season, really, maybe into his 3rd season (if football still exists....), but hey, he's damn exciting right now and he obviously has the tools and the brains to run a solid scheme. But how does he adjust when everyone else does? That's what matters.

The Great Russell Wilson has gobs of pure, absolute talent and brains as well, but if you don't put a pro line in front of that talent to guard against other pros, then that talent is quickly destroyed. I think Wilson is still good, but he's had those seasons behind him and the wear is damn obvious. Feet and talent like that can only carry you so long until the refusal to protect it manifests.

Hell, look at Brady. He hasn't had to move 2 feet in his career. He's still going because he has always had an impenetrable wall in front of him--hell, dude cut his salary just to keep that wall in place. He got hit twice in his career. One of those hits ended his season. Now he just gives up when runners are close. Let's see how Mahomes does after taking 2 or 3 seasons worth of Russell Wilson hits.
OK, fair points about that teams might come up with a better plan to contain him and yea, Wilson has been ravaged the past 2 seasons with perhaps the most crap-tastic O-line in the entire NFL. As far as Brady goes, no, it's just not worth his time to try and gain yds by running, he's just slow, (although he will if it's a gaping hole). Patriots O-line has not always been good, go back to some of the games vs the Broncos and Brady took quite the beating, in the SB's vs Seattle/Atlanta he took quite a beating, he's never been knocked out of a game no matter how hard he's been hit. That being said, at 41 it's pointless to absorb any extra punishment, much smarter to either chuck it away or just eat the sack. Brady's simply too slow to make it worth the risk to take off, he won't get far and exposes himself to needless abuse.


....of course, I say all this at the burgeoning of the era when you aren't allowed to touch the QB...so who knows, lol? He may be the first superstar all-tool QB that lasts more than 5 seasons.
 
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