Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: GullyFoyle
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: Train
you could also find a pens fan bitching about refs in every one of thier losses... do you have a point?Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: Quiksilver
Finally, about god damned time the ref's found their whistles mid-third period. Not too mention the one on Zetterberg was bullshit but I can let it slide sames it's happened numerous times.
I came to this thread to see if a Detroit fan bitched about the officiating. I was not disappointed. Even all of the Detroit fans I'm friends with are the same way. I honestly just laugh at them. It pisses them off but I don't even care. Any time they lose it's because of something the refs did. Anytime they win it's because, well, they're fucking Detroit that's what they do!
Go game 7! (because that's what I've been rooting for the entire time... couldn't care less about either team)
I don't see it quite as prevalent in this thread nor do I personally know any pens fans. I even went back and checked it. The majority of pens fans here complain that the don't get the breaks/bounces when they lose but don't come right out and say the only reason they could possibly lose to the wings is due to officiating. That's pretty much a wings fan cornered market.
I was not disappointed in your post, lol.
Weren't the penguins going bankrupt a few years back because no one was showing up at thier games? Then lemuiex had to give them a cash infusion to stay alive?
And now they have rally's outside the stadium, lol talk about a city of bandwagoners.
Nice deflection, heh.
A clubs financial health has a lot to do with making money off people that may rarely, if ever, come to a game.
Detroit has a lot of fans outside Detroit for the same reason the Steelers have a lot of fans outside Pittsburgh. People without a home team that are interested in the sport want to pick a team to follow/claim as their own that is a winner. I'm learning that lot of my interwebs friends from all over the country are Redwings fans, yet most of them are from nowhere near Detroit. This isn't because the redwings are cool dudes to hang out with, it is because they win championships.
For the same reason, the Penguins are one of the fastest growing fanchises in sports. That's just the way it is, people like winners.
And don't forget the Pens have to compete with the Superbowl champion Steelers for the local fans limited dollars. Thank god the Wings don't have to worry about that in Detroit...
The point is, even before thier current respective playoff streaks... The wings were never in danger of collapsing... the Pens were.
And yes, there are other sports in Detroit, the Pistons won it all in 2004, and have been on an ~8 year playoff streak. Back in 89-90 they bad boys were the hot ticket in Detroit. Red Wings were still ok. The Tigers made it to the World Series in 05.. Wings were fine. Even back in the 80's when the wings werent winning cups, and the Tigers and Pistons were winning it all.... Wings were fine, fans still loved them enough to show up. ANd more recently theres the Detroit Shock, something like 5 out of 7 league championships...
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: sao123
Crosby and Malkin play on different lines 90% of the time... generally they are only together on powerplays.
What are you talking about? Last night they started the game on the same shift, do you even watch hockey? Did you watch last night's game? They have played ALOT on the same shifts this year, especially before they acquired sniper Bill Guerin. Sure it's not ideal due to the same position, but neither player's stats have suffered... Malkin is winning the freaking Art Ross this year. I'd say they reaped the benefits of each other more than once.
From February (before Guerin)
Now, the offense is thinner. Without topflight help on the wing, superstar centers Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin don't have as much support. As a result, they've been used together on the same line. That's not an ideal situation for two guys who both want to play the middle. And when they're stacked on the same trio, the Penguins pretty much become a one-line team. In fact, this season, Therrien often had the team playing a passive, trapping game to hide the shortcomings.
To reiterate: If Ovechkin had another superstar (same line or not - it doesn't matter) like Gretzy/Kurri/Coffey to compliment he/Mike Green they would be a dynasty. In addition, you can almost argue that the Pens, if they stay healthy, are already in beginning stages of a dynasty with Malkin/Crosby by making it to the finals last year and completely turning their season around at the trading deadline with a new coach and winger.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Read my reply above, and no I'm not a Caps fan (Flyers), I'm from Philly (do a search for the World Series thread). Add something relevant to the discussion, like firing a neuron (I know, there's not many so it's a big request) and try to rebuke that Ovi is the best player in the NHL. /kisses
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: sao123
Crosby and Malkin play on different lines 90% of the time... generally they are only together on powerplays.
What are you talking about? Last night they started the game on the same shift, do you even watch hockey? Did you watch last night's game? They have played ALOT on the same shifts this year, especially before they acquired sniper Bill Guerin. Sure it's not ideal due to the same position, but neither player's stats have suffered... Malkin is winning the freaking Art Ross this year. I'd say they reaped the benefits of each other more than once.
From February (before Guerin)
Now, the offense is thinner. Without topflight help on the wing, superstar centers Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin don't have as much support. As a result, they've been used together on the same line. That's not an ideal situation for two guys who both want to play the middle. And when they're stacked on the same trio, the Penguins pretty much become a one-line team. In fact, this season, Therrien often had the team playing a passive, trapping game to hide the shortcomings.
To reiterate: If Ovechkin had another superstar (same line or not - it doesn't matter) like Gretzy/Kurri/Coffey to compliment he/Mike Green they would be a dynasty. In addition, you can almost argue that the Pens, if they stay healthy, are already in beginning stages of a dynasty with Malkin/Crosby by making it to the finals last year and completely turning their season around at the trading deadline with a new coach and winger.
I watch every game. out of the average 60 1 minute shifts crosby and malkin are on the ice for about 1/3-1/2 of them which is about 20-30. During the regular season... except for power plays, they only play 3-4 shifts together per game. in the playoffs, this number may increase to 5-7... which is still less than 20% of their total shifts / ice time.
if i take your argument to its logical conclusion, then you might as well claim that lemieux was a product of linemates... Francis (all time assist leader), & Jagr.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Read my reply above, and no I'm not a Caps fan (Flyers), I'm from Philly (do a search for the World Series thread). Add something relevant to the discussion, like firing a neuron (I know, there's not many so it's a big request) and try to rebuke that Ovi is the best player in the NHL. /kisses
Being the highest goal scorer doesnt make you the best player in the game... you have to be able to win faceoffs, block shots, make checks, great passing, and play defence. Crosby is the ALL AROUND BEST current player in the game, because he does everything but play goal. Ovechkin does 2 things.. slapshots and check people.
People from philly are already known for their heavy prejudice against crosby.
Argument dismissed.
Originally posted by: Paratus
The Pens were mismanaged until the current Lemuiex led ownership righted the ship. The most recent troubles were caused by the idiot local politicians farting around instead of approving a new arena. Anyone from Detroit should understand idiot politicians.
(posted via Palm Pre)
Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: Wreckage
So which Pen player will try to trade to the Wings during the offseason so they to can have a real shot at the cup?
Maybe Hossa will let Crosby and Malkin at least have their picture taken with it.
Ozzy has a few years left, but maybe Scuderi can back him up.
Originally posted by: Paratus
The Pens were mismanaged until the current Lemuiex led ownership righted the ship. The most recent troubles were caused by the idiot local politicians farting around instead of approving a new arena. Anyone from Detroit should understand idiot politicians.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
So playing 15-20% of the time with another superstar won't inflate your stats? GTFOOH, "argument dismissed".
IF Crosby was really the best all around (he's a better passer), why did Ovi beat him in points this year, let alone 3 of the past 4 years? Remember, points includes assists... /snicker
Irrelevant, moronic ad hom attack coming in 3...2...1...
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: Paratus
The Pens were mismanaged until the current Lemuiex led ownership righted the ship. The most recent troubles were caused by the idiot local politicians farting around instead of approving a new arena. Anyone from Detroit should understand idiot politicians.
Idiot politicians maybe, but wtf is a "new arena".
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: Paratus
The Pens were mismanaged until the current Lemuiex led ownership righted the ship. The most recent troubles were caused by the idiot local politicians farting around instead of approving a new arena. Anyone from Detroit should understand idiot politicians.
Idiot politicians maybe, but wtf is a "new arena".
arena is too big of a word for you? perhaps you might understand the word...stadium
next year will be the last ever for mellon... then the pens will have a new home.
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Paratus
The Pens were mismanaged until the current Lemuiex led ownership righted the ship. The most recent troubles were caused by the idiot local politicians farting around instead of approving a new arena. Anyone from Detroit should understand idiot politicians.
(posted via Palm Pre)
uhhh, so no new arena = bad finances for the team? Were people refusing to go to the game until a new arena came or something? There's still no new arena and people are going now....
The Joe was opened in 1979, that didnt have an impact on anything. The wings arent suffering from no new arena syndrome.
I mean really, do you have a real argument or not?
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: Paratus
The Pens were mismanaged until the current Lemuiex led ownership righted the ship. The most recent troubles were caused by the idiot local politicians farting around instead of approving a new arena. Anyone from Detroit should understand idiot politicians.
Idiot politicians maybe, but wtf is a "new arena".
arena is too big of a word for you? perhaps you might understand the word...stadium
next year will be the last ever for mellon... then the pens will have a new home.
It was sarcasm as the Wings arena is 30 years old. notice how I included "new" in the quotes with "arena". :roll:
Originally posted by: sao123
...
the penguins are one of the smaller market teams, which were very close to bankruptsy.
mellon is the oldest and smallest arena in the NHL. a larger arena is needed to allow for more ticket sales which = more income.
In the 2003?04 season, they had the lowest average attendance of any team, with just 11,877 fans per game.
Mellon Arena Capacity: 16,940 for hockey games.
Originally posted by: sao123
:roll: the penguins arena is over 40 years old.
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: Paratus
The Pens were mismanaged until the current Lemuiex led ownership righted the ship. The most recent troubles were caused by the idiot local politicians farting around instead of approving a new arena. Anyone from Detroit should understand idiot politicians.
Idiot politicians maybe, but wtf is a "new arena".
arena is too big of a word for you? perhaps you might understand the word...stadium
next year will be the last ever for mellon... then the pens will have a new home.
It was sarcasm as the Wings arena is 30 years old. notice how I included "new" in the quotes with "arena". :roll:
Wings homer opinion noted. Weed isn't legal over here either. Get a clue about something... anything.Originally posted by: Squisher
Originally posted by: meltdown75
don't even go there. I live in Windsor, this would be the Red Wing bandwagon capital of the world if it weren't for Detroit.Originally posted by: Train
And now they have rally's outside the stadium, lol talk about a city of bandwagoners.
The Joe is half-empty (even though they brag about consecutive home "sellout" streaks) for the entire regular season. once the playoffs start, the bandwagon's axles are ready to snap. half the people at the games don't even know what an offside is. you go to a game and every time a Wing touches the puck, half the place yells "shooooot!!". Ozzie makes a routine save, half the place chants "ozzie ozzie".
don't try to say Detroit isn't a bandwagon club. More than any other team in the league, their fanbase is comprised of bandwagoners that don't know squat about hockey.
What a load of crap.
The Joe is half empty? You couldn't even find a seat for like 15 years running until the economy went on the skids.
Detroit fans don't know hockey? I know weed is legal over there, but someone should tell you to not drink the bong water.
Lol ya right. more from your ass.Originally posted by: meltdown75
I can score Wings tix on ebay the day before ANY regular season game, ANYWHERE i want to sit.
the debate is about Wings having the biggest bandwagon base, so let's keep it on track, shall we? i know i'm right about it, so whatever you Wings homers say is just dribble.
Originally posted by: Train
Lol ya right. more from your ass.Originally posted by: meltdown75
I can score Wings tix on ebay the day before ANY regular season game, ANYWHERE i want to sit.
the debate is about Wings having the biggest bandwagon base, so let's keep it on track, shall we? i know i'm right about it, so whatever you Wings homers say is just dribble.
ok, so I'll ask it again.. so how come the Wings were never bankrupt like the Pens were?
Looking at the Pens page on Wiki... looks like 1998 wasnt the only year they wernt bankrupt, 1975 as well. So basically, when Lemiuex or Crosby was playing, the team was popular, all other years they were forgotten. That's pretty much the definition of bandwagon.
In all the years between the '55 and '97 cups.. the Wings were a very healthy, and popular franchise in Detoit, even during the "Dead Wings" era.
Originally posted by: sao123
Detroit didnt go bankrupt because the city offers nothing else worthwhile besides hockey.
Detroit... Tigers + Lions + Pistons = All Failures.
pittsburgh has popular other sports.
Pittsburgh... Steelers = Success.
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: sao123
...
the penguins are one of the smaller market teams, which were very close to bankruptsy.
mellon is the oldest and smallest arena in the NHL. a larger arena is needed to allow for more ticket sales which = more income.
oh the lulz keep coming..
so are you saying the problem when the Pens were going bankrupt is that they couldnt sell enough tickets because they were already sold out (not enough seats)?
buhahahahaha, oh man
Stats From Wikipedia:
In the 2003?04 season, they had the lowest average attendance of any team, with just 11,877 fans per game.
Mellon Arena Capacity: 16,940 for hockey games.
From Wiki
Off the ice, the Penguins were in the midst of a battle for their survival. Their free-spending ways earlier in the decade came with a price; owners Howard Baldwin and Morris Belzberg (who bought the Penguins after their first Cup win) had asked the players to defer their salaries. When they finally came due, combined with other financial pressures, the Penguins were forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in November 1998?the second such filing in franchise history. Just when it appeared that the Pittsburgh franchise was about to either move or fold, the reitred Lemieux proposed to recover his millions of dollars of deferred salary by converting it into equity and buying the team. The court agreed, and Lemieux assumed control on September 3, 1999.
From Wiki
Still, the Penguins needed to cut costs, especially now that the huge salary of Lemieux had been added. Controversially, Jagr, their stalwart for the last four years, was traded to the Washington Capitals along with Frantisek Kucera for prospects Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, and Ross Lupaschuk, and $4.9 million in the summer of 2001. The absence of Jagr proved devastating to the Penguins, and in 2002 they missed the playoffs for the first time in 12 years. Further financial difficulties saw them trade fan favorite Alexei Kovalev to the New York Rangers the next season, quickly followed by the departure of Lang in free agency. The Penguins slumped to last place, where they remained for several years despite the acquisition of top draft picks.
From Wiki
The Penguins have suffered small-market syndrome for most of their existence, and cost-cutting prevented another collapse into insolvency. Financially, the team was one of the better-managed NHL franchises between its 1998 bankruptcy and the 2004?05 NHL lockout. Thanks to significant post-season runs, the Penguins broke even in 2000 and turned a small profit in 2001. Failure to make the playoffs in the next three seasons hurt the team's bottom line, but the shedding of contracts (such as Jaromir Jagr and Martin Straka) kept the team afloat as other franchises, like the Ottawa Senators, faced significant losses or declared bankruptcy. In the 2003?04 season, they had the lowest average attendance of any team, with just 11,877 fans per game.
However, by 2005, the Penguins had paid off all of their creditors, both secured and unsecured. In fact, the court approved Lemieux's plan largely because it was intended to pay everyone the team owed.
From Wiki
As recently as the 2006?07 season, the franchise ownership sought alternatives that would provide a return on their investment. Various prospective owners sought to buy the team; however, the Lemieux Group eventually decided to keep ownership rather than move the team to the highest bidder, thus resulting in the Penguins being set to remain in Pittsburgh for at least 30 more years. As in the mid-70s and 80s, the fanbase and local government officials were successful in persuading the ownership that Pittsburgh and the surrounding region were capable of meeting the needs of a modern NHL team (Paratus - only after the Pens threatened to leave repeatedly did they get serious about proving the capability). The possible relocation sites about which there was the greatest speculation and discussion were Houston, Kansas City and Oklahoma City.
From Wiki
The decision to keep the team in Pittsburgh proved favorable, as the Penguins enjoyed franchise-record home sellouts throughout the 2007?08 NHL season and 2008 Stanley Cup playoffs; in some cases, their home playoff games were sold out in less than 15 minutes.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Feldenak
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
That article maybe on to something, but saying he's the best player in the league? GTFOOH. The Great 8 is hands down the best player in the league, we haven't seen such a scorer since Lemieux/Gretzky. While both players make their teams better and Crosby may be a better passer, he can't match Ovi's laserbeam shotmaking ability nor possess that 0-60 speed.
Ovi's 219 goals = only the 4th player in NHL history to have 200+ in 4 seasons alongside Gretzky, Bossy, and Lemieux. His 65 goals in 2008 = single season record for a left winger.
While Crosby's recordbreaking age records are great (youngest Captain, youngest 100+pt scorer, youngest player in league history to win the Art Ross Trophy as scoring champion/Hart Trophy from writers as most valuable player/the Pearson Award from his peers as most outstanding player in his second season), he does have the great Malkin beside him which inflates his stats. Give Ovi another superstar (the ancient Federov and Kozlov don't count) and the Caps would be a dynasty (think Oilers and Gretzky/Coffey/Kurri = Ovi/Green/anothersuperstar). I would bet that Ovi would score in the 70-80 goal range with someone else who is a big time threat to take the attention off of him.
Crosby and Malkin play on different lines 90% of the time... generally they are only together on powerplays.
You'll have to forgive his ignorance, he can't help it: 1) He's a WVU fan and 2) He's a Caps fan
Read my reply above, and no I'm not a Caps fan (Flyers), I'm from Philly (do a search for the World Series thread). Add something relevant to the discussion, like firing a neuron (I know, there's not many so it's a big request) and try to rebuke that Ovi is the best player in the NHL. /kisses
Originally posted by: Train
TWICE the Pens went bankrupt... not once.
The fans came back because they started making the playoffs again... anything to the contrary is a joke.
The Joe is about as dilapidated as they get. It takes an hour just to piss.
Originally posted by: Train
So there was a threat to leave in 1975 too? Or we just forgetting that one?
And note I pointed out the Wings were fine during the "drought" (55-97) as well. No bankruptcy's
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
So playing 15-20% of the time with another superstar won't inflate your stats? GTFOOH, "argument dismissed".
IF Crosby was really the best all around (he's a better passer), why did Ovi beat him in points this year, let alone 3 of the past 4 years? Remember, points includes assists... /snicker
Irrelevant, moronic ad hom attack coming in 3...2...1...
once you are stuck on ovechkins point totals... there is more to hockey than scoring. LIKE DEFENSE.
crosby:
77 games
33 goals
70 assists
103 points
238 shots
13.9 scoring %
42 blocked shots
80 giveaways
56 takeaways
51.3% (829/1616) faceoff wins
80 hits
ovechkin:
79 games
56 goals
54 assists
110 points
528 shots
10.6 scoring %
32 blocked shots
107 giveaways
60 takeaways
25.0% (8/32) faceoffs
243 hits
like i said ovechkin is nothing but a shooter and a hitter, crosby is an ultimate 2 way player.