***Official*** 2010 Stock Market Thread

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richardycc

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2001
5,719
1
81
another down day, Dow is under 10k, but I have a feeling gnvc will close at 1.84 or better today. will see.
 

Cattlegod

Diamond Member
May 22, 2001
8,687
1
0
i pulled 1/2 my holdings out of the market today, i'm going to see what unfolds in the next couple months. there seems to be a lot of uncertainty brewing again.
 

Azurik

Platinum Member
Jan 23, 2002
2,206
12
81
Azurik said:
BTW, I bought Feb 22.5 puts just in case armageddon hits the market while I'm away.

Privyet! I'm back guys - Belarus was a GREAT trip. I had so much fun and wasn't ready to come back yet, but such is life.

I haven't checked the stock market at all this past week and a half, but finally caught up this morning along with reading the posts made here. A few comments:

1) I'm really glad I bought those Feb 22.5 puts on my shares. They are up 300% and help buffer the damage of RMBS dropping $4.

2) JMapleton - You calling RMBS going down and then coming back here 2 weeks later saying you were right doesn't mean much. There's plenty of people who have made great calls on the market this year. So yes, RMBS dropped $4, but so what? How much has it gone up in the past year? And what about the stock price dropping... was it necessarily due to TA? The market tanked on a whole. It's definitely not due to FA. RMBS is not invincible to the markets dropping 3% on a daily basis. If there's anything I'm interested is your opinion on RMBS as a company and as a long-term investment.

3) My portfolio remains the same. The majority of my money has been in cash and cash equivalents since the latter half of last year.

4) Go out there and live life, we can't time the market all the time and sometimes we make bad decisions. Even with the RMBS puts as a buffer, my brokerage accounts as a whole lost around $30k or so. But just like I didn't beat myself on making a lot of money by holding, I'm not going to do the "would have, could have, should have" game while the market goes down.

It's a wild world out there, and while we are all occupied with RMBS, GNVC and a few other select stocks - please think of your investment appetite, how much you are willing to risk and the long-term prospects of the companies you invest in. The stock price will eventually gyrate to it's potential value.
 
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JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
2) JMapleton - You calling RMBS going down and then coming back here 2 weeks later saying you were right doesn't mean much. There's plenty of people who have made great calls on the market this year. So yes, RMBS dropped $4, but so what? How much has it gone up in the past year? And what about the stock price dropping... was it necessarily due to TA? The market tanked on a whole. It's definitely not due to FA. RMBS is not invincible to the markets dropping 3% on a daily basis. If there's anything I'm interested is your opinion on RMBS as a company and as a long-term investment.

Fundamentals and RMBS as a company has very little to do with short time price moves.

I'm not saying I'm some expert market timer, but I knew very well the market and RMBS was at a top. I just feel I saw it very clearly while some got caught up in bull market fever.

The market has gone almost nowhere for the last few months and has completely run out of gas. No matter how great RMBS is as a company, which is purely a long term viewpoint, it will follow the market in the short term.

These are all my personal and non professional opinions and I do not recommend anyone act on my advice.
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
Welcome back Azurik Can't imagine being off the net for so long, but I'm glad to hear you had a nice trip. What'd you do over there?

4) Go out there and live life, we can't time the market all the time and sometimes we make bad decisions. Even with the RMBS puts as a buffer, my brokerage accounts as a whole lost around $30k or so. But just like I didn't beat myself on making a lot of money by holding, I'm not going to do the "would have, could have, should have" game while the market goes down.

Heh, I think I've lost about half of what you've lost since the start of the year, but my net value can't be any more than 1/10 of yours, if even My portfolio is the story of an epic battle between an army of bears and the bastion of HGSI, haha. It's hard not to worry when I'm down so much, lol.

Have any advice on next steps for the dumber folks (like meeee) among us?
 

iversonyin

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2004
3,303
0
76
Welcome back Azurik Can't imagine being off the net for so long, but I'm glad to hear you had a nice trip. What'd you do over there?



Heh, I think I've lost about half of what you've lost since the start of the year, but my net value can't be any more than 1/10 of yours, if even My portfolio is the story of an epic battle between an army of bears and the bastion of HGSI, haha. It's hard not to worry when I'm down so much, lol.

Have any advice on next steps for the dumber folks (like meeee) among us?

Stop gambling.
 

KDKPSJ

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2002
3,288
58
91
What a rollercoaster of Dow. lol. It just moves up and down like 50 point is nothing.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,665
67
91
What is hilarious is that people are going to sell at some point and wait for a dip as the Dow runs past 14,000.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,384
5,145
136
what is hilarious is that people are going to sell at some point and wait for a dip as the dow runs past 14,000.

Are you basing that on earnings reports, overall economic mood, government numbers,or ???
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
In my opinion, if one of these European countries seriously defaults or something worse happens, you can kiss the US markets goodbye for this year as I personally think we would see the Dow drop to new lows (below last year's low of around 6000).
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,665
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Are you basing that on earnings reports, overall economic mood, government numbers,or ???

Stocks are fairly to slightly undervalued right now. Depends on sector. I am basing my current comments on free cash flow measures. Coke and Pepsi are overvalued while PG, JNJ, USG and a handful of others are undervalued. Most stocks I look at are just about fairly valued right now. Others, undervalued. There are opportunities but not as many as 1 year ago. Earnings are not a good measure of a business but people don't believe it. Free cash flow is somewhat like looking at CD yields granted that is an oversimplification. Anyways, I see some upside to the S&P 500 since most stocks are properly or under valued. I rarely find stocks today that are obviously overvalued.

As for the future, I don't think people realize what is going to happen. Well, I do. Right now, public debt relative to GDP is to high. There are several ways to fix this. But let me limit what I have to say to the following. We are going to print money which does not take an act of congress even though it is actually a tax on US citizens. This is going to cause inflation and as a result of this, GDP will increase. By doing this, the old debt will stay where it was but GDP will increase, making it easier for us to reduce the difficulty in repaying the public debt. How much inflation? Well, let's just say 2 years of double digit inflation numbers is what I expect. I wouldn’t be surprised to see inflation at 50% over the next 5 years. When will this start? I don’t know. No one knows. All that one can conclude is a long term picture. If you are short term oriented though, think about the recent GDP numbers.

That essentially means that everything is going to inflate. A rising tide raises all boats after all. And in the end, you will see a lot of prices for goods going up. This doesn’t matter to companies. They will just increase prices with the tide which will increase revenues, earnings and free cash flow.

Actually, my current thoughts on valuation do not include crazy inflation. It is somewhat of a catalyst. If inflation is considered almost all stocks are undervalued right now. But the point of this is that the rising tide will raise stock prices to since the tide effects the measures that people care about (revenues, EPS, FF, etc). If the Dow should be at 11,000-12,000 right now, one might as well expect it to be 50% higher in 5 years time. How quickly it gets there is beyond my and anyone else’s capabilities. Anyone that does have an answer does so simply because they were asked.

So, these fearful people getting 2% on their CDs are going to loose a lot of buying power when inflation hits. The ones that think properly are going to make out like bandits relative to the general population. When will stock prices rise? No one can answer that. It is an issue of when though, not if.
 
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Sep 29, 2004
18,665
67
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You think the Dow should have a 20 PE while top line is getting murdered?

Like I said, I don't care for EPS which also means PE. It is a bogus number that is overused. Like debt to equity. A company cares about paying off debt with cash. Equity has nothing to do with debt unless a company is being liquidated. And even then you care about assets and liabilites (more than just debt). Free Cash flow is a better measure of a company. For example, think of capital expenditures. Those are written off over many years. So companies that have tightened their belt might have negative EPS right now (caused by depreciation of assets) even though their mound of cash has grown (free cash flow). USG is a good example of this. They actually generated cash over the trailing 12 months and they sell drywall. USG EPS is --$7.93. And trades for $11-$12 right now.

As for 14,000+, I think in a couple of years it could happen. That's not what I said about current valuation of the S&P 500 though. And I care less abut hte voting machine that is currently running. I care about where things will be in 5 years.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Like I said, I don't care for EPS which also means PE. It is a bogus number that is overused. Like debt to equity. A company cares about paying off debt with cash. Equity has nothing to do with debt unless a company is being liquidated. And even then you care about assets and liabilites (more than just debt). Free Cash flow is a better measure of a company. For example, think of capital expenditures. Those are written off over many years. So companies that have tightened their belt might have negative EPS right now (caused by depreciation of assets) even though their mound of cash has grown (free cash flow). USG is a good example of this. They actually generated cash over the trailing 12 months and they sell drywall. USG EPS is --$7.93. And trades for $11-$12 right now.

As for 14,000+, I think in a couple of years it could happen. That's not what I said about current valuation of the S&P 500 though. And I care less abut hte voting machine that is currently running. I care about where things will be in 5 years.

I hope you are kidding about Debt/Equity. Last year's credit meltdown proved how important it is. During down markets, leverage = bankrupt.

Where are you getting $7.93 EPS for USG? What are you looking at? Look at their top line attrition, it's ugly. Look at their EBITDA, it's near break even. Their operating cash flow is basically breakeven. Construction outlook is uglier. Construction costs are down 50% from the peak.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,665
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I hope you are kidding about Debt/Equity. Last year's credit meltdown proved how important it is. During down markets, leverage = bankrupt.

Where are you getting $7.93 EPS for USG? What are you looking at? Look at their top line attrition, it's ugly. Look at their EBITDA, it's near break even. Their operating cash flow is basically breakeven. Construction outlook is uglier. Construction costs are down 50% from the peak.

I am not kidding about debt/equity. It is a useless measure. It's only talked about because it is easy to calculate. It's like EPS. That number is totally useless to a busienss owner. Remember, accounting is there to give an account of what happened, not to tell you if a company is any good. So, tell me how debt/equity was so imopiortant last year. Examples would be nice.

I pulled EPS from Google finance. I figured that is where most people here would look. 2008 EPS was $-4.67 and this year is going to end up around -$2. Looking that he $7 number, I don't know where Google got that from because it is not ttm EPS.

You got me though. FCF ttm is slightly negative. Must be a new quarterly out since last I looked.

The busiensses that USG partakes in are at or near the bottom of the cycle. In 5 years, no one will be talking about it anymore. Also, debt/equity regrading USG is pretty much unchanged. Don't forget Buffett and Watsu's convertable notes at $14/share.
 
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FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,377
2,131
126
I have a business and have $100 in cash and $900 in debt. My business is cashflow negative but its growing. I have about $400 left in capital. Will I be in business for long if the bank wont continue to subsidize my growth plan with more debt?
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,665
67
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I have a business and have $100 in cash and $900 in debt. My business is cashflow negative but its growing. I have about $400 left in capital. Will I be in business for long if the bank wont continue to subsidize my growth plan with more debt?

Yayyyy hypotheticals!

Ya, you are going down quick. You are free cash flow negative (don't even need cap ex to tell me that).

Someone needs to borrow. Let’s keep this in the realm of stocks though. You have banks, convertible notes, and shareholder dilution among other tools at your disposal. Lender will look at your ability to repay. If you are really up the creak, you might need to talk to venture capitalists.

Maybe the bank shouldn’t lend you any more money.

The laughable thing about USG is that they could dilute shareholder by about 50% before it would be an issue in terms of paying less than intrinsic value. That's on top of the already existing convertable note risk. (FYI: Buffett already lent USG a good chunk of money)

Need more tools to do USG justice! With inflation on the horizon, will USG sell their goods at a greater price while cap ex is unaffected by inflation? What does this mean for Free cash flow as inflation and GSP start growing at a double digit rate?
 
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JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Yayyyy hypotheticals!

Ya, you are going down quick. You are free cash flow negative (don't even need cap ex to tell me that).

Someone needs to borrow. Let’s keep this in the realm of stocks though. You have banks, convertible notes, and shareholder dilution among other tools at your disposal. Lender will look at your ability to repay. If you are really up the creak, you might need to talk to venture capitalists.

Maybe the bank shouldn’t lend you any more money.

The laughable thing about USG is that they could dilute shareholder by about 50% before it would be an issue in terms of paying less than intrinsic value. That's on top of the already existing convertable note risk. (FYI: Buffett already lent USG a good chunk of money)

Need more tools to do USG justice! With inflation on the horizon, will USG sell their goods at a greater price while cap ex is unaffected by inflation? What does this mean for Free cash flow as inflation and GSP start growing at a double digit rate?

Yes, but what if economy doesn't grow and construction remains stagnant? What if market won't refinance their debt? You think Buffett will sit there and bend over while USG considers 50% dilution?

regardless, USG is not undervalued.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,665
67
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Yes, but what if economy doesn't grow and construction remains stagnant? What if market won't refinance their debt? You think Buffett will sit there and bend over while USG considers 50% dilution?

regardless, USG is not undervalued.

The construction market will not be stagnant forever. USG doesn't need to refinance their debt. Don't act like every company out there is required to refinance for some reason. Buffett has already got convertible notes that if converted will make him a 30% shareholder on top of his already existing shares. Quite frankly Buffett will probably end up buying USG some day.

USG is grossly undervalued. Your being short sighted. Look at free cash flows after normalizing cap ex and cash from ops. You are looking at the trailing twelve months. While you are at it, read a few of the annual reports and more recent quarterly reports. Your mindset is like that of Jim Cramers. So long as you are grasping for the most recent headlines, you are never going to find bargains. Do some critical thinking about where things will be going over the next 5 years.

USG is worth $30 if the convertible dilution occurs. $40 if it doesn't. Buying at a 66%+ discount is not unreasonable. At normal times, what was free cash flow like? Look at 1999-2004 for prehousing-boom numbers. Toss on inflation and the future effects of inflation on top of those numbers to see where this company is going. And remember, USG is a domicile so it's financials will be coupled to US inflationary trends.
 
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IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,384
5,145
136
Closed my SDS (2x Bear) position yesterday at a small loss. Guess the market can't make up its mind.
 
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