Official 2011-2012 NBA Playoffs Thread

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dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,950
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Game logs don't have 4th quarter stats, but that doesn't really matter does it? The games are 48 minutes long you know. You are seriously gonna try and defend your stupid commentary by trying to somehow insinuate that putting up 39-8-8 over the course of a six game series is falling short? That is your approach?

I bring it up, not because the soap opera-ization of sports is dragging down Lebron's performance (it doesn't), but because it encourages sheep to run alongside whatever headline is run. Lebron is clearly putting up stats the likes of which the league hasn't seen in the modern era, and will likely not be duplicated for quite some time. Instead of seeing the beauty of basketball played right, it is just a bunch of nit-picking of stuff that doesn't matter. Who cares about a Nike designer? This is sports. Choking someone? Hill? Who? Come on.

So you have no ability or desire to thoughtfully discuss the premiere player in the league? Why exactly do you come to this thread?

I'm not the only person who notices him disappearing in the 4th quarter - it's been documented and talked about on ESPN frequently, and other sports personalities I've heard.

As for LeBron and his stat lines - I'll always argue that this guy is pure natural talent and athleticism. He is an extremely streaky shooter - this allows his team to be defeated one of two ways. Force him to shoot constantly and hope he goes cold or force him do distribute. Granted, the teams around him haven't been the best - but he did that to himself in Miami. He also "ran" the Cavs - look at Jamison, Hayward, Wallace, Shaq, the drama with West, etc.

You can teach anyone how to shoot the basketball - you can't teach them what LeBron has in talent and athleticism. I just feel he fails to ignore the fundamentals of the game, and the skill that would make him a supreme player. As he gets older and his body breaks down, he will trend very quickly downward.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
81
wow - he will trend very quickly downward - much like this discussion has...

now LeBron doesn't have any fundamentals? Have you even watched him play?

He is one of the 2 or 3 best passers to have played forward - ever. Even if he couldn't dunk, that doesn't change.

Could he be a better shooter - yes, but have you seen his shooting stats this year?

yes, he had a bad game against the Celtics once in playing for the Cavs - and yes, he didn't have great 4th quarters in 2 or 3 games against the Mavs last year.

that's pretty much it for him not playing well under pressure - if those elimination game stats don't mean anything, then why even bother with the discussion?
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,950
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wow - he will trend very quickly downward - much like this discussion has...

now LeBron doesn't have any fundamentals? Have you even watched him play?

He is one of the 2 or 3 best passers to have played forward - ever. Even if he couldn't dunk, that doesn't change.

Could he be a better shooter - yes, but have you seen his shooting stats this year?

yes, he had a bad game against the Celtics once in playing for the Cavs - and yes, he didn't have great 4th quarters in 2 or 3 games against the Mavs last year.

that's pretty much it for him not playing well under pressure - if those elimination game stats don't mean anything, then why even bother with the discussion?

Question - why do people keep responding to me about LeBron? You WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND. So, quit trying already.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
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Question - why do people keep responding to me about LeBron? You WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND. So, quit trying already.

I don't expect to change your mind. Just maybe get you to admit there is no actual factual basis for any claims that he shrinks from the moment, nothing beyond any standard deviation that any player has. His elimination games fall right into his norm. You hate him for reasons that go beyond the court, that is fine. I feel the exact same way about Kobe.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,950
4
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I don't expect to change your mind. Just maybe get you to admit there is no actual factual basis for any claims that he shrinks from the moment, nothing beyond any standard deviation that any player has. His elimination games fall right into his norm. You hate him for reasons that go beyond the court, that is fine. I feel the exact same way about Kobe.

Since you can't determine his fourth quarter stats, you can't prove he doesn't. Like I said - I'm not the only person who says he shrinks in the 4th.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
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and other than the 3 or 4 games mentioned...

anyway - Rondo officially suspended for Game 2 - he's lucky he only got one game, given that he drilled a ref with a ball earlier this year
 
Oct 20, 2005
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and other than the 3 or 4 games mentioned...

anyway - Rondo officially suspended for Game 2 - he's lucky he only got one game, given that he drilled a ref with a ball earlier this year

Rondo is a stupid ass hot head who needs to grow up.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
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Since you can't determine his fourth quarter stats, you can't prove he doesn't. Like I said - I'm not the only person who says he shrinks in the 4th.

The only game anyone specifically mentioned was the closeout game for the Mavs, in which Lebron was 3-5 shooting in the fourth quarter. Not sure what that proves.

How about game 4 of the Boston series? Heat were down 3 with 7 minutes left and Lebron scored 10 of the last 12 in the fourth to send it to overtime. How about game 5? Game tied with 2 minutes left and a 10-0 run by Lebron seals the game. How about game 2 of the Chicago series, clinging to a 3pt lead with two minutes left in the game? Lebron scored 9 of the last 12 for the Heat. Game 5? Heat were down 12 with 3 minutes left and Lebron scored or assisted on 11 of the Heat's points as they closed out the game with an 18-4 run.

Do those fourth quarters count?
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,460
775
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The only game anyone specifically mentioned was the closeout game for the Mavs, in which Lebron was 3-5 shooting in the fourth quarter. Not sure what that proves.

How about game 4 of the Boston series? Heat were down 3 with 7 minutes left and Lebron scored 10 of the last 12 in the fourth to send it to overtime. How about game 5? Game tied with 2 minutes left and a 10-0 run by Lebron seals the game. How about game 2 of the Chicago series, clinging to a 3pt lead with two minutes left in the game? Lebron scored 9 of the last 12 for the Heat. Game 5? Heat were down 12 with 3 minutes left and Lebron scored or assisted on 11 of the Heat's points as they closed out the game with an 18-4 run.

Do those fourth quarters count?

2 things about James

1. He always travels
2. He can score 30+ and basically be the reason they win a round of the series, and he can be the reason they win 2 games in the next. But if they don't win that series because he has an off game, it's because he's a choke artist. Never mind the fact every season he's top 3 for MVP candidates.

If the Heat win this year, all the haters will say is "Well he couldn't do it in Cleveland..."
 
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dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,950
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This actually sums up my argument right here.

James cannot shoot well under pressure - various reasons, but time with a good shooting coach can improve this. He resorts to shooting instead of driving in the lane in crunch time - the above graphic demonstrates this with Dirk, but the same can be said for Kobe, Wade, CP3, Amar'e, Parker (and Duncan/Manu).

It's amazing that after 7 (now 8) seasons - he hasn't learned. I believe he did the same thing in game 4 against the Spurs in '07.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
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and again - you completely ignore the other playoff, 4th quarter games cited in prior posts..

you can cherry-pick games from just about any player and make them look shitty

how about we stop talking about LeBron, since I'm pretty sure he go score 100 and you'd bitch about it
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,950
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and again - you completely ignore the other playoff, 4th quarter games cited in prior posts..

you can cherry-pick games from just about any player and make them look shitty

how about we stop talking about LeBron, since I'm pretty sure he go score 100 and you'd bitch about it

Funny, because prior to the previous Finals, I said the same thing about Dirk. Why do other games matter over these? They don't - that screen capture is from the '11 Finals. The Finals are what you play for - period. If you can't win there, especially in the clutch, then nothing really matters.
 

Arik5405

Platinum Member
May 9, 2005
2,044
1
81
Lol wow. First time popping into this years playoff thread and you guys are talking about the exact same bullshit as last year. Good Lord.
 
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actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
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This actually sums up my argument right here.

James cannot shoot well under pressure - various reasons, but time with a good shooting coach can improve this. He resorts to shooting instead of driving in the lane in crunch time - the above graphic demonstrates this with Dirk, but the same can be said for Kobe, Wade, CP3, Amar'e, Parker (and Duncan/Manu).

It's amazing that after 7 (now 8) seasons - he hasn't learned. I believe he did the same thing in game 4 against the Spurs in '07.

Here's 82games.com clutch stats for the last few years:

http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

James has had a bad year this year but has consistently been one of the best players to close out games for years.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
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The Mavs are really making the Thunder work for these games. The Thunder are lucky to sneak out of OKC having held home court. As the FT balance shifts to the home team in Dallas I fully expect a 2-2 series heading back to OKC.
 

blamb425

Senior member
Mar 30, 2007
545
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Amare Stoudemire punches the glass encasing a fire extinguisher in frustration and badly cuts his hand...apparently Tyson Chandler even commented he didn't think Stoudemire will be a part of Game 3
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
0
71
Amare Stoudemire punches the glass encasing a fire extinguisher in frustration and badly cuts his hand...apparently Tyson Chandler even commented he didn't think Stoudemire will be a part of Game 3

Weird. Was he really that shocked that they lost?
 

cheezy321

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2003
6,218
2
0
Stoudemire is an idiot. This doesn't surprise me. Remember this is the same guy who wears an Al Capone t-shirt but has no idea who he is, just that he is a 'gangster'. He also didn't know there was a time in US history when alcohol was illegal.

Stoudemire is showing his true colors this year in NY. Lackluster numbers and a crappy defensive game. I bet he misses Steve Nash.
 

bigpimpatl

Senior member
Jul 11, 2005
474
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randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
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Those charts are really interesting. However, and I'm not discounting them at all, they are a very specific set of criteria. 5 minutes left or overtime, no team ahead by more than 5.

Tough to judge a player vs another with this kind of statistic. This year he had a "bad year" but if you look at his previous years he did much better but had far more games and minutes. Seems like a correlation there. More minutes, better chance of getting higher on the chart for him.
 
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