*** Official *** 2012 MLB Season Thread!!

[SP33Demon]

Replacement Umps?

Bases loaded, ball was hit to shallow left (and more than the "normal effort" for the infielder to make like the rule says for an infield fly) with 1 out, infield fly rule called by an outfield ump (who called it super late). Water bottles and beer cans thrown at the field from every angle, players back into the dugout to protect themselves... holy hell.

Edit: Actually, at the start of the game the announcers said these umps were the best crew and have received numerous accolades. lol

Edit1: Braves manager Gonzalez just put the game under protest now. However, announcers saying that a rule wasn't broken, it was strictly a judgement call by the umps on the infield fly so it may not have any merit.

Edit2: Also, take into consideration that Simmons was called (correctly) for interference on the earlier 1 and 3rd bunt where he ran on the inside of the baseline and the crowd was already pissed by that (which they thought was wrong of course).

Edit3: Now security on high alert for flying objects, which are still going. Umpire Jeff Kellogg was just hit by a small liquor (shot size) bottle. Not sure when the game will resume, already 15 minutes into the delay. Kellogg just left the field into the tunnel to talk to the Braves manager Gonzalez.

 

[SP33Demon]

And the game finally resumes. Call stands. Wow. Now debris getting thrown in right field lol.

"This has become a joke. Very embarrassing. How would you feel if you're Beltran, with your back to the crowd!"

ESPN link now:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs/201...ard-game-halted-fans-protest-infield-fly-call

 

[Svnla]

From Yahoo sports:

But just before the ball dropped, left field umpire Sam Holbrook signaled an automatic out because of the infield fly rule, designed to prevent a team from intentionally dropping a popup in order to get extra outs with more than one runner on base.

Can someone with knowledge of the rule explain in plain English? Why would the defense want to drop a fly out?

 

[SP33Demon]

From Yahoo sports:



Can someone with knowledge of the rule explain in plain English? Why would the defense want to drop a fly out?

It protects the runners on base, so the defense can't just let a popup fall at the last second and then double up two runners who were supposed to advance (but stayed near their base thinking it was going to be caught). As a result, the ump just signals that it's simply an automatic out.

 

[Sinsear]

Horrible call; cost the Braves big time

 

[Fingolfin269]

I hate these one game playoffs. Any team in baseball can beat any other team in a one game series. I don't know if that bad call cost the Braves the game but it definitely didn't help them at all. If they're going to have this extra wild card it really needs to be at least a 3 game series. Then it will be baseball.

 

[SP33Demon]

After watching the replay, it seemed like Kozma (SS) could have caught it with ease, but couldn't hear Holiday (LF) and didn't want to collide which is why it dropped (he wasn't sure if Holiday was calling for it too), and he backed off. So you could make a weakish case that the ump thought the ball would be caught with "normal effort" since it had decent hangtime. The real problem is that a)he didn't anticipate the miscommunication and more importantly, b) the ump is supposed to make that call when the ball is at its apex, and not on its descent. That is where he royally fcked up because it didn't give the runners (who advance at their own peril) enough time to decide whether to advance at their own peril! By the time the ball has landed, they are stuck in no man's land in between bases. Which completely defeats the purpose of the rule.

For example, what is supposed to happen is: The runners on first and second see the popup. Ump raises his hand to signal infield fly while the ball is still going up (or at its apex-ish), and then the runner can run back to the base and wait to run in the low % chance it's dropped and noone knows where it is. Hence, at their own peril at the end of the play, they can choose whether to advance. Obviously there is an automatic out applied to the batter. In the situation from today's game, they think it could have a legit shot to drop and are further off the bag by the time they find out they were supposed to be on the bag (to possibly tag) due to Hollock's very very late signal. The rule's function (to protect runners from getting deceived by an outfielder and then doubled off by an intentionally dropped ball) is now negated by the late call. While they advanced anyway, the Braves were still hit with a rally killing 2nd out.

 

[KK]

It protects the runners on base, so the defense can't just let a popup fall at the last second and then double up two runners who were supposed to advance (but stayed near their base thinking it was going to be caught). As a result, the ump just signals that it's simply an automatic out.

Thats part of the game to me. Why have a rule that protects the runners, let the offense do what they can do, and let the defense do whats best for them. The defense wants to let a ball drop, let them. When did this stupid rule come about?

 

[Gunslinger08]

Thats part of the game to me. Why have a rule that protects the runners, let the offense do what they can do, and let the defense do whats best for them. The defense wants to let a ball drop, let them. When did this stupid rule come about?

1901. I remember it being called in little league baseball 20 years ago.

 

[SP33Demon]

Thats part of the game to me. Why have a rule that protects the runners, let the offense do what they can do, and let the defense do whats best for them. The defense wants to let a ball drop, let them. When did this stupid rule come about?

1895, it would put the other team at a serious disadvantage if it wasn't in effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infield_fly_rule

I like how they updated it already with the Braves/Cards. heh

 

[SP33Demon]

O's up 2-1 in the 7th. Yu Darvish out, not a bad game.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Thats part of the game to me. Why have a rule that protects the runners, let the offense do what they can do, and let the defense do whats best for them. The defense wants to let a ball drop, let them. When did this stupid rule come about?

It would be ok except that the stupid ump waited until the ball was practically on the ground to call it.

 

[SP33Demon]

Machado with clutchhhhh hit! 4-1 B-more!

 

[Perknose]

Charm City Birds in control!

 

[Hacp]

It would be ok except that the stupid ump waited until the ball was practically on the ground to call it.

I think it was a good call. Imagine if the umpire didn't call the infield fly and the outfielder was in position to make a double play off of it. Then Braves fans would be equally booing.

 

[jman19]

And the collapse is complete for Texas. Waste of a season.

 

[purbeast0]

It would be ok except that the stupid ump waited until the ball was practically on the ground to call it.

as a neutral fan here, why does it matter when he called it or not? either way it would be an out, whether he called it as soon as it hit the bat or right before it hit the ground.

 

[Svnla]

SP33, thank for the post. I read your detail explanation again but I am still not quite clear of the reason/purpose of the rule <scratching head>. Sports can have some weird/strange rules.

I watched baseball since the late 80s/90s and this would be the first time I know about this rule. Most of the time that I saw, the ball drop = live ball and anything go, caught ball = batter out and base runner(s) can advance right after that if he choose to or not and stay at the base(s).

Oh, and several friends say there should be at least 3 games playoff for wild card. They said the Braves should at least be given another chance.

 

[dabuddha]

And the collapse is complete for Texas. Waste of a season.

Yep :/ Hamilton has got to go. He's always been a liability and has been nothing but a sure out these past few months. Wash has to go cause of the countless stupid decisions he's made. He and Hamilton can spend the off season doing cocaine together. Feldman blows donkey balls. Ugh so much failure and bad luck (2 starting pitchers out almost the whole season)

 

[SP33Demon]

as a neutral fan here, why does it matter when he called it or not? either way it would be an out, whether he called it as soon as it hit the bat or right before it hit the ground.

1) Not as important as #2 but related, the timing is critical because it confuses the runners as to which base they are supposed to go to. If they don't know it's an infield fly, then they will try to advance if the ball is dropped or run back to their base if it's caught. However, by calling the infield fly at the last second, the runner is still caught between bases whereas they would have had the option to tag up on a caught ball (rare but can happen) and be waiting at the base, vs in between, after the infield fly ball is caught. For example, shallow right field with first and second, ump calls infield fly, fast runner from second tries to tag to third on a catch. On the flipside, the baserunner may choose to NOT go back to the base but at least they have enough time to make this decision if the ump calls it when he's supposed to. So yeah, it's not a huge deal but still gives them a definitive option to tag up. By calling it late, this option is taken away from the baserunner. Not a huge deal because it would usually affect only the speedsters who have the ability to pull something like that off and catch the defense napping. Very very rare though.

2) Way way more importantly than #1, the timing is also critical because if an ump calls it too late, then the runner could still be in between bases (since they are assuming the ball is in normal play) and the defense can still drop it on purpose, thereby still getting the "trick" double play since the runner isn't at a bag yet. For example, if St.L planned to intentionally drop the popup today, they could have possibly gunned out the runner on second who was waiting between 2nd and 3rd to see if it was going to be caught. In addition, if infield fly is called last minute, the baserunners will be confused and the one on first could try to go to 2nd and the one on 2nd may try to run back to 2nd as well (since the runner on first may not hear the infield fly and try to advance since he saw the drop). It's just a recipe for disaster because some runners may not see/hear it called if it's called late and then they're dead meat on an intentional muff, or dead meat if they both decide to go the same base in the confusion. To reiterate my earlier post, the rule was instated to prevent this in the first place. The infield fly called early is supposed to get baserunners back to the bag so they are safe (and they could tag up on a catch if they choose). Also, usually it should be noted that usually if an outfielder muffs the catch unintentionally, the runner will usually be able to advance a full base (like today) since the defender has to chase it. So there's really no reason to be in between basepaths in the event an infield fly rule is called. I'll have to watch the replay but I think the Atlanta players were getting back more than usual b/c they thought it was going to be a normal catch (but not all the way back just in case of a drop). After it was dropped, they bolted for the next base without knowing it was an infield fly and made it since St.L obviously planned on catching it and did not. However, if St.L did drop it intentionally, then the Braves would be dead in the water while advancing to the next base - since they thought they had to, because there's no way they could have heard/seen the ump call the infield fly that late. Otherwise, if they heard it early, they just run back to their base and hope for the unintentional drop to advance, or #1 (tag up and catch them napping). Kind of complicated I know.

 

[JD50]

O's did it. I can't wait for the game tomorrow night, I'll be there.

 

[rcpratt]

I like the 1-game format. Of course it's not fair, but those teams had the opportunity to win the division for the past 162 games. It's definitely exciting.

Heading down to CoPa in a few hours

 

[SP33Demon]

With the 1 game format, it ensures that the wild card team's best pitcher won't pitch twice in a 5 game first round series, as a penalty. However, with a 3 game play-in series, this could still happen. For example, for the first round, teams will play 5 games in 6 days. The Wild card team will have to play 6 games in 7 days. So their rotation would look like:
Day 1- #1 pitcher used for play-in game
Day 2- #2 pitcher used for Game 1
Day 3- #3 pitcher used for Game 2
Day 4- travel day
Day 5- #4 pitcher used for Game 3 OR #1 pitching on short rest, possible elimination
Day 6- #1 pitcher used for Game 4 on full rest OR #2 on short rest, possible elimination
Day 7- #2 pitcher used for Game 5 on full rest OR #3 on short rest, possible elimination

Here we see the Wild Card team only gets to use their #1 once in the first round because of the penalty.

If there was a 3 game play-in, then the Wild Card plays 8 games in 9 days:
Day 1- #1 pitcher used for play-in game
Day 2- #2 pitcher used for play-in game
Day 3- #3 pitcher used for play-in game
Day 4- #4 pitcher used for Game 1
Day 5- #5 pitcher used for Game 2 OR #1 on short rest
Day 6- travel day
Day 7- #1 pitcher used for Game 3 OR #2 one short rest, possible elimination
Day 8- #2 pitcher used for Game 4 on full rest OR #3 on short rest, possible elimination
Day 9- #3 pitcher used for Game 5 on full rest OR #1 on short rest, possible elimination

This would allow the wild card team to possibly use their #1 and #2 twice in a 5 game series, albeit on short rest. Even worse, if there was a travel day in between the 3 game play-in and the first round (most likely), then the Wild Card team would only have to use their #1 once on short rest for Game 1, and then get him back in Game 5 at full strength.

A team with a great bullpen but less than stellar starting rotation, such as last year's St.L or this year's Atlanta, could essentially limit the #1's innings/pitch count on short rest and shorten the game with their bullpen. As a result, even the short rest penalty wouldn't hurt them much and teams like this could still get quality starts out of their #1 on short rest. So for the penalty to really be effective, you want that #1 only touching the ball once as a starter in the first round so it will affect all teams of different builds equally.

Also consider that a 3 game play-in would lengthen the playoff schedule, something that has already been criticized as too long by some.

Summary: I think the Wild Card team should only be allowed to use their #1 once in the first round as a penalty for not winning their division. A 3 game play in would take this away. Also, a 1 game play-in will not lengthen the playoff schedule short and prevent the playoffs from running too far into October.

 

[Squisher]

Shorten the regular season {*cough* money *cough*} and go for it.

Some here in Detroit think the 2006 WS was lost because of weather (9 day layoff). I think the length of the season and playoffs is at the breaking point right now.

 

[bigpimpatl]

thanks for the explanation sp33demon. I had those same questions.

IMO Atlanta lost the game in the 4th when chipper made the throwing error. The cards took the lead after that and never looked back.