***Official*** 2012 Stock Market Thread

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oznerol

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2002
2,476
0
76
www.lorenzoisawesome.com
Few weeks. Here's why I'm so pissed.

I own AMAT -- bought well before earnings. They ramped up to earnings, had an EXCELLENT report & forecast that blew away all expectations, stock spiked up ~8% after hours...then every day since then it's gone down. I am now in the red on this guy.

I own(ed) NVIDIA -- bought before earnings, earnings sucked, so I averaged down...it then ramped up to crazy amounts of profitability for me...and then it comes down to close for a loss. It has done this 3 days in a row: open low, ramp high, then close lower then the open. WTF? Rage sold it today after I ended up in the red.

I own EA -- bought after it hit a 52 week low. Then it ramped for a few days, gaining several percent. Then it's been downhill every day for the last week.

Finally, I own Amazon -- the only stock NOT f*cking me. I'm up modestly because my investment in it was...modest.

I'm not sure I really have the nerve for long term holding. Every time I'd do an earnings hit 'n run play, I'd make money (or just be forced to hold for a little to minimize losses). That's what I'm going back to doing -- I don't like hanging onto stock long term and dealing with the ups and down for what? 5%? 10%? Tops?

Screw that.

So basically you like gambling, not investing.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
126
So basically you like gambling, not investing.

The only thing that should affect a company's stock price are the financial results. Everything else in between is BS -- "Oh no, Greece this, unemployment rate that"

"Investing" would be buying shares @ IPO. "Gambling" is buying intrinsically worthless* shares and hoping that people will want to buy your intrinsically worthless shares at a higher price than you paid.

*unless it pays a dividend
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
82
86
Remember, *MOST* securities prices are already baked in based on earning projections from analysts; yes there are cases when earnings shatter estimates, but those are far and few in between.

You might want to look into writing call options on the securities you bought, one of the safest play there is with regards to locking in profits. If the stock goes south of the strike price, at least you would have enough time to buy to close your calls, and dump the stocks. Win, win.

Yes, there are opportunity cost, but as mentioned, those are far and few. No one ever go broke making profits, however little there are.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
126
Remember, *MOST* securities prices are already baked in based on earning projections from analysts; yes there are cases when earnings shatter estimates, but those are far and few in between.

You might want to look into writing call options on the securities you bought, one of the safest play there is with regards to locking in profits. If the stock goes south of the strike price, at least you would have enough time to buy to close your calls, and dump the stocks. Win, win.

Yes, there are opportunity cost, but as mentioned, those are far and few. No one ever go broke making profits, however little there are.

I normally think like that -- just lock in the profits when you've got 'em, but I tried to be more "investor like". It doesn't work for me. My compulsion to watch minute-to-minute stock quotes is insanely high.

But I'm just an impulsive 21 year old. I feel like you become more patient as you get older...
 
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Sep 29, 2004
18,665
67
91
Remember, *MOST* securities prices are already baked in based on earning projections from analysts; yes there are cases when earnings shatter estimates, but those are far and few in between.

You might want to look into writing call options on the securities you bought, one of the safest play there is with regards to locking in profits. If the stock goes south of the strike price, at least you would have enough time to buy to close your calls, and dump the stocks. Win, win.

Yes, there are opportunity cost, but as mentioned, those are far and few. No one ever go broke making profits, however little there are.

Mispricings can be found when a security is bashed, bashed and bashed some more in the media. A real herd mentality can follow. Even if you look at it with open eyes and it is obvious, no one else cares to read beyond the media hype. Imagine finding a misunderstood company and being an analyst for a mutual fund. Would you run to your boss and scream BUY BUY BUY? Probably not. It's easier just to tell them to buy Berkshire or JNJ. No risk in loosing your job there. It's a self feeding cycle and due to it, on occasion you can find severe mispricings. Sometimes when a stock slips, the fall is hard. And on occasion, it is not a justifiable fall.
 
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SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
82
86
Mispricings can be found when a security is bashed, bashed and bashed some more in the media. A real herd mentality can follow. Even if you look at it with open eyes and it is obvious, no one else cares to read beyond the media hype. Imagine finding a misunderstood company and being an analyst for a mutual fund. Would you run to your boss and scream BUY BUY BUY? Probably not. It's easier just to tell them to buy Berkshire or JNJ. No risk in loosing your job there. It's a self feeding cycle and due to it, on occasion you can find severe mispricings. Sometimes when a stock slips, the fall is hard. And on occasion, it is not a justifiable fall.
I now hound for those kind of stocks, prime example is XCO that I mentioned earlier in the thread. It's a prime candidate for buyout, and there are good reasons.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,665
67
91
SSSnail,

XCO looks interesting. Is it really beaten up for no good reason though? If it makes you smile, Wilbur Ross owns 14% of the company. Started buying it about a year and a half ago.

I've mentioned a company here in the past that has a US population that doesn't care for their products. But worldwide, their products are more readily accepted. They have really started a push to improve perception of the US market and over the next year they will start releasing more modern products. They are being innovative with their upcoming products (I've been watching some demos). And there has been a CEO shakeup. Stock has gotten killed over the last year for no real reason. But I can imagine that analyst for that big mutual fund ..... not a chance he would tell his boss BUY BUY BUY! So, the stock got killed. God, it's even trading under book value even though it has no debt and is FCF positive. regarding book/share, I wonder if the share buyback will keep going? Probably not till they right the ship more. PS: RIMM.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
82
86
Not only Gordon Gekko himself owns more than 18% aggregate (Wilbur's top holdings in his fund is XCO right now), Phil Falcone also owns more than 30%. They obviously know something.

It's beaten up mainly because NG prices has been depressed due to ridiculous weather pattern across the US. But, they're acquiring new technologies, and companies and shedding their needless weight. I'd imagine that they'll be bought out before that happens. There was a bid for $20/s from the CEO before, and was rejected by share holders. I can only imagine the beat up price is a set up for a tender offer, ala Gordon Gekko style.

"Greed, for the better lack of words, is good".
 
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lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
Few weeks. Here's why I'm so pissed.

I own AMAT -- bought well before earnings. They ramped up to earnings, had an EXCELLENT report & forecast that blew away all expectations, stock spiked up ~8% after hours...then every day since then it's gone down. I am now in the red on this guy.

I own(ed) NVIDIA -- bought before earnings, earnings sucked, so I averaged down...it then ramped up to crazy amounts of profitability for me...and then it comes down to close for a loss. It has done this 3 days in a row: open low, ramp high, then close lower then the open. WTF? Rage sold it today after I ended up in the red.

I own EA -- bought after it hit a 52 week low. Then it ramped for a few days, gaining several percent. Then it's been downhill every day for the last week.

Finally, I own Amazon -- the only stock NOT f*cking me. I'm up modestly because my investment in it was...modest.

I'm not sure I really have the nerve for long term holding. Every time I'd do an earnings hit 'n run play, I'd make money (or just be forced to hold for a little to minimize losses). That's what I'm going back to doing -- I don't like hanging onto stock long term and dealing with the ups and down for what? 5%? 10%? Tops?

Screw that.
And here just a week ago, you were trying to lecture me about trading on emotion.
I certainly got a chuckle out of that.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
This *could* be one of my best years in a while.

My biggest value pick I mentioned here from just a little over a year ago has been shooting up, but no one else noticed.
What we're witnessing is valuation in action.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,822
8,296
136
This *could* be one of my best years in a while.

My biggest value pick I mentioned here from just a little over a year ago has been shooting up, but no one else noticed.
What we're witnessing is valuation in action.

OK, I'll bite, what was it?
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:AAPL

LOL, keep waiting for a pullback in Apple, is just has days where it's only up a half a % versus days where it's up a couple of percent.

I'm still in, bought at $499 last week. One of the docs I work with & I were trying to decide if we're going to hold through earnings next quarter, I'm still in new territory, dunno how the hell to play it...
I played a round of golf over the summer with a guy (he practiced family law) who said he was financing his retirement swing trading AAPL. He seemed to be only 1/2 facetious in saying this, clearly he was making a lot of money. I've had insights like this in the past, followed a particular stock closely and developed a sense of when it was bouncing and when it was extended. If you are reasonably accurate, you can make good money trading those ranges.

Myself, I bought AAPL at 405 late last year and watched it drop and almost reach my stop at 382, removed my stop and finally sold it at 367 IIRC. So, I lost money. The other day I bought it at 523. It's difficult to have gotten a worse entry, but I'm in. I have a mind to just hold on. I think it's destined to go over 600 in the not too distant future. AAPL has fantastic financials, truly dominates its market place. You look at it and the PE of around 15 is very low for a stock that's been performing at such a high level. There's a ton of upside potential, and for a growth stock relatively little downside potential. That's the reason I bought it for my Roth IRA. I have fucked up in there so much it's not funny. I should have stuffed it in my mattress.

I can't tell you how to regard AAPL's next earnings, but the last one seems to have precipitated this monstrous move we've been seeing. I've gotten hammered very badly a couple of times lately by my stocks' earnings. But I've also gotten some very nice pops, so I'm not getting gun shy on earnings. I got a pop today on QCOR. They reported after market close but notice that it's up 5.75% after hours. I got a pop on AAP the other day. Hey, somebody has to be holding those stocks over earnings, if everybody sold them, the price would just plummet just before earnings. I'm really still learning, reaching and finding my "identity as an investor." There are so many possibilities. I figure that a growth stock that has a history of earnings surprises and pops is more likely than most companies to have a favorable move at earnings. It's generally a risk, though.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,822
8,296
136
95% of retail daytraders lose money. You can go and look at the Tuco Trading LLC numbers if you wish.
A very experienced day trader I've encountered commented that every single day trader he'd met had gone broke at least twice. I guess it's addictive.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,822
8,296
136
And here just a week ago, you were trying to lecture me about trading on emotion.
I certainly got a chuckle out of that.

I'm not too sure about this. I have been thinking that I want to take emotion out of my trading decisions, but I'm not as committed right now to this as I was a couple of months ago. I've been studying a lot, learning the Investools system, and have some experience with CANSLIM and IBD's philosophies. Those systems are similar in their aggressiveness, but they are very different in that Investools are associated with online tools, search tools, training systems in a variety of investing areas including basic stock investing, advanced fundamentals, advanced technicals, basic and advanced options, they are powered by around 80-90 coaches, and they provide the Think or Swim multi-functional data driven charting and trading tool which includes a mind boggling extensive variety of chart indicators. There's even a scripting system where you can create or alter the existing indicators. I haven't dabbled in that to this point, I've only been using it a few months.

Investools is heavily into rules that shield your investment decisions from emotional influences. I think that my acceptance of this is predicated on my confidence that it can really work effectively. Unfortunately, I've had some bad experiences recently. There's much work to do. I've seen coaches demonstrate (via Webex) how using the system with trend trading many well chosen stocks can generate great returns with basically no emotional decision making involved. So, I believe it can be done. I just haven't been able to do it myself up to this point. Of course, we haven't been in the best environment (we're in the midst of a 15-17 year weak market cycle with very little market progress overall), and when I was just starting with the system the market was extremely difficult.
 
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Connoisseur

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2002
2,471
1
81
I think VVUS was mentioned o this board a while ago. Just got overwhelming approval from the FDA panel for its Obesity drug. I'm a happy man.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Why is Sears up 23% on reports of a huge loss in Q4 '11?

Probably someone said something about reorganizing or getting the company back on track - near future outlook seems to have more sway than actual results.


Okay, so I did the "investment" portion of my taxes over the past two days, and found out I made about 10% last year in my Canadian trades and lost 5% on the US side. I have more money on the US side...

It also turns out that I made more in dividends on boths sides than I made (net) in capital gains. Going to have to rethink this...


And does anyone know how "superficial losses" work for tax purposes? Apparently, I can't claim capital losses if I buy the stock back within 30 days. So, what if I bought it back, then sold it again? I still lost more money than I gained back, so I can't claim the huge chunk I lost, just because I bought it back? Or can I just add everything I gained and lost (which is what I did last year), and just leave it at that - this makes the most sense to me?

I keep insanely detailed records, and my trades are meticulous (I sell "units" of stock in the exact same quantities I buy them per transaction - I buy 150, I sell 150, I buy 150x2=300, I sell 300, etc.).
 
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hiromizu

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
3,405
1
0
Probably someone said something about reorganizing or getting the company back on track - near future outlook seems to have more sway than actual results.


Okay, so I did the "investment" portion of my taxes over the past two days, and found out I made about 10% last year in my Canadian trades and lost 5% on the US side. I have more money on the US side...

It also turns out that I made more in dividends on boths sides than I made (net) in capital gains. Going to have to rethink this...


And does anyone know how "superficial losses" work for tax purposes? Apparently, I can't claim capital losses if I buy the stock back within 30 days. So, what if I bought it back, then sold it again? I still lost more money than I gained back, so I can't claim the huge chunk I lost, just because I bought it back?

I keep insanely detailed records, and my trades are meticulous (I sell "units" of stock in the exact same quantities I buy them per transaction - I buy 150, I sell 150, I buy 150x2=300, I sell 300, etc.).

I think that's called the wash rule and I dont think you can write off losses of a stock if you buy back the same or "similar" stock before 30 days had past after selling it for a loss.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
I think that's called the wash rule and I dont think you can write off losses of a stock if you buy back the same or "similar" stock before 30 days had past after selling it for a loss.

That's what it sounds like, but from my research, your adjusted cost base changes because you bought shares cheaper. What eventually ends up happening is that you still have the same net amount since a "loss + big gain" = "no loss + minor gain" - assuming the price increases to above your initial buy price.

But this rule sounds like it was designed for longterm investments. Specifically, it sounds like it's for if you sell, then buy again and hold through to the next tax year. The longest I've held something is 3 or 4 months, and I more or less dump everything (not deliberately with purpose) at the end of each year.

I think I'll just use my net gain and call it a day. If the Canada Revenue Agency wants to audit my ass, they can go ahead. I make so little, I'll owe them an extra $200 at worst.

Also, apparently, "day trading" or "not longterm investment" can also be taxed as income, rather than capital gains, but the rules in our tax code are so iffy, there's no clear distinction, and it's up to the CRA to decide.
 

hiromizu

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
3,405
1
0
That's what it sounds like, but from my research, your adjusted cost base changes because you bought shares cheaper. What eventually ends up happening is that you still have the same net amount since a "loss + big gain" = "no loss + minor gain" - assuming the price increases to above your initial buy price.

But this rule sounds like it was designed for longterm investments. Specifically, it sounds like it's for if you sell, then buy again and hold through to the next tax year. The longest I've held something is 3 or 4 months, and I more or less dump everything (not deliberately with purpose) at the end of each year.

I think I'll just use my net gain and call it a day. If the Canada Revenue Agency wants to audit my ass, they can go ahead. I make so little, I'll owe them an extra $200 at worst.

Also, apparently, "day trading" or "not longterm investment" can also be taxed as income, rather than capital gains, but the rules in our tax code are so iffy, there's no clear distinction, and it's up to the CRA to decide.

Well I don't know about what's going on over there in Canada but in the USA (the best country on the planet) you'd be screwing yourself.
 
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