***Official*** 2012 Stock Market Thread

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The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
0
76
So at what point does the SEC start investigating the underwriters for pump & dump on the IPO?

What your seeing this year is something that has never happened before. Retail is being smart. They are pulling money out of mutual funds on up ticks, not down ticks. Institutions were expecting a huge pop on FB as retail came in to buy shares, blame it on NDAQ, blame it on anything. I do think (my own opinion, etc.) is that retail looks at FB and doesn't see value in it. They look at their own user patterns of clicking on ads, viewing likes, etc. Wall Street looks at FB as a huge marketing machine, which hasn't taken off yet. The pump and dump has taken Wall Street for the ride, not as much to retail.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
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Yeah, I get the impression that Wall St are just a bunch of old dudes thinking that they're being "hip" by proclaiming that FB will take over the world. Or something.

I'm 21 and I think FB is a damn joke.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
What your seeing this year is something that has never happened before. Retail is being smart. They are pulling money out of mutual funds on up ticks, not down ticks. Institutions were expecting a huge pop on FB as retail came in to buy shares, blame it on NDAQ, blame it on anything. I do think (my own opinion, etc.) is that retail looks at FB and doesn't see value in it. They look at their own user patterns of clicking on ads, viewing likes, etc. Wall Street looks at FB as a huge marketing machine, which hasn't taken off yet. The pump and dump has taken Wall Street for the ride, not as much to retail.

Still, we're talking a gross mis-valuation of the IP, along with the underwriters propping up the share price on day 1. The former really isn't much anything other than negligence. The latter, imho, is criminal (again, imho, I don't know what the actual rules are). The only people that benefited from what happened on friday were the banks and the top FB brass. They got their money.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
0
76
Still, we're talking a gross mis-valuation of the IP, along with the underwriters propping up the share price on day 1. The former really isn't much anything other than negligence. The latter, imho, is criminal (again, imho, I don't know what the actual rules are). The only people that benefited from what happened on friday were the banks and the top FB brass. They got their money.

The underwriters will be synthetically short the name on the break. Having the IPO go down is beneficial to them as their shorts increase in value. When underwriters supported the name it was via covering of shorts. The Green shoes are for when the price goes up.

I want to say the banks are going to end up in a tough spot on this one. Their profit will be negligible or they will have a loss in the underwriting commitment.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
Still, we're talking a gross mis-valuation of the IP, along with the underwriters propping up the share price on day 1. The former really isn't much anything other than negligence. The latter, imho, is criminal (again, imho, I don't know what the actual rules are). The only people that benefited from what happened on friday were the banks and the top FB brass. They got their money.


No one put a gun to anyones head and said buy FB or else. Anyone who went long FB on friday did it voluntarily.
 

Rudee

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
11,218
2
76
My broker thinks Facebook stock will not reach its initial IPO price ever again. He's expecting the stock to trade considerably lower going forward. He told me not to buy on the opening day, and I'm glad I didn't.
 
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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
100, not enough to matter, but enough that I'm annoyed.

Out of it, $700 later. Ugh.

Shit. Sorry. That's bullshit. Too bad complaining or doing anything significant will probably cost more than $700.


Yeah, I get the impression that Wall St are just a bunch of old dudes thinking that they're being "hip" by proclaiming that FB will take over the world. Or something.

I'm 21 and I think FB is a damn joke.

Shhh.... Social media this, social media that, twitter, FB, Linked In.. We're in a new age... lalalalal.


Yay! It's a rally on "hopes for Europe" day!
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
Shhh.... Social media this, social media that, twitter, FB, Linked In.. We're in a new age... lalalalal.

I agree for the most part, except LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn could potentially be a viable long term player given it's more of an online resume/job site that works essentially in reverse of what monster.com does.

That said though, FB et'al seem to be riding the wave right now just like MySpace did way back when. When the next "big thing" comes along they'll go crashing down into obscurity too. Of course vendors/corporate types actually seem semi-keen on FB compared to the alternatives, so the fad may last longer than we expect.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
I agree for the most part, except LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn could potentially be a viable long term player given it's more of an online resume/job site that works essentially in reverse of what monster.com does.

That said though, FB et'al seem to be riding the wave right now just like MySpace did way back when. When the next "big thing" comes along they'll go crashing down into obscurity too. Of course vendors/corporate types actually seem semi-keen on FB compared to the alternatives, so the fad may last longer than we expect.

I don't know about the "semi keen" thing. It's usually "follow us on Twitter, friend us on Facebook, and check out our tumblr + whatever". Seems more like a fear of falling behind than an actual tool; that is, some of our competitors, now all of our competitors are using it, so we must too. Another way of saying it is they use it to appear modern (perceived marketing to younger generation?), but I have rarely heard (haven't looked too hard) of companies boasting of how much our FB page improved our sales, etc. It's usually talk of their official website improving sales.

I have an FB I never use (classic nerd), and don't have a twitter, but am actually on twitter stalking celebrities and company/products often.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
0
76
My broker thinks Facebook stock will not reach its initial IPO price ever again. He's expecting the stock to trade considerably lower going forward. He told me not to buy on the opening day, and I'm glad I didn't.

Ask your broker if he had an allotment or not. Easy to recommend not buying something you can't get...
 
Apr 17, 2003
37,622
0
76
I agree for the most part, except LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn could potentially be a viable long term player given it's more of an online resume/job site that works essentially in reverse of what monster.com does.

That said though, FB et'al seem to be riding the wave right now just like MySpace did way back when. When the next "big thing" comes along they'll go crashing down into obscurity too. Of course vendors/corporate types actually seem semi-keen on FB compared to the alternatives, so the fad may last longer than we expect.

Agreed with LNKD. Also, they have a PAID service to offer that generates rev so they are not completely dependent on ad revenues (by ads, I mean employers buying postings).
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
"Any thoughts on Siemens AG (symbol SI)? It is near a 52 week low with a 4.66% yield."

(Disclosure: I don't trade or invest in individual stocks, but all of my net worth, other than the house I live in, is tied up in a diversified portfolio of long-only, buy and hold type type mutual funds, so I feel the pain just like anyone one else if and when the stock market really tanks).




Random Thoughts of a non-financial pro, retail muppet who only watches CNBC and reads stuff on the internet (I started to write this posting before RBsX chimed into this thread immediately above, so hopefully he has already put me on his Ignore list and doesn't even see this posting. If not, if he just totally ignore it, this posting will probably be long forgotten by most after others have added their own comments about whatever topic they are focused on and this page will be well back from current page of thread).


- Jim Cramer recently had an opening rant on Mad Money ("Fulcrum Point" titled episode) that we were at a fulcrum point, where Dow could plunge 1000 points, or rally 1000 points, we just don't know yet (edit: found the video of that opening monologue to Mad Money. It was from last Thursday, May 17, and correct term was "Fulcrum Moment": http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000090803&play=1)

- I think I remember some talking head on CNBC this morning (I want to see it was Art Cashin, but I looked through his video clips on CNBC website this morning and don't find the comments) about similarities of current market to the run up to the 1987 stock market crash (which I believe ultimately ended up being a great buying opportunity if you were able to play the rebound well).
"A Cloudy Crystal Ball - Since this is the last “Comments” until after Memorial Day, a blurry look ahead may be in order. The battle for Greece (and Spain) will be fought daily at the ATMs of their banks. A full-blown bank run would be an instant crisis. Egyptian elections (Wednesday & Thursday) may move markets. Markets heavily oversold and susceptible to a large, maybe massive, short squeeze. A central bank move in Europe, China or the U.S. could catch shorts flat-footed. That having been said, we have not yet seen capitulation, just thick dark gloom."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/look-inside-art-cashins-crystal-ball
- Then I see Jim O'Neill (Goldman Sachs Asset Management), who is somewhat a perma-bull I think and is always presumably talking Goldman's own book (I've seen him pop up on CNBC over the years, and my personal impression is that he has great gravitas and almost seems free to speak his own opinion, rather than boiler plate talking points of Goldman itself) reaffirming his call for SPX 1500 later this year (http://www.cnbc.com/id/47502732).

- Also starting to see bulls and bears starting to stake out positions and try and defend them on CNBC, as if the big boys have placed their bets and are starting to duke it out (zero sum game, eat what you kill, someone has to lose for the person on the other side of the trade to win), and trying to tip the market in the direction that favors the trades they have put on or want to put on. Fast Money contributor Guy Adami (always find it hard to interpret his comments because they seem contrarian in a way that is foreign to me, but I think he chooses individual stocks based upon long-term fundamentals, but trades short-term turns based upon technical analysis (?) made a comment in passing today calling for SPX 980 (I think this was more placing a marker so he could say I told you so if that actually were to occur)

- Then see other bulls saying how Bernake perhaps targeting slower than optimal growth to really contain inflation (not doing what Paul Krugman is calling for in terms of aggressive stimulus now) might be setting groundwork for 5 - 10 year buy and hold type bull market somewhere down the road.

- Game Changer to all of the above would obviously be a really substantial breakthrough in terms of policy or politics in the Eurozone, but don't read much about that yet (Germany willing to accept higher inflation than ideal I think is part of the ultimate solution (I previously thought that the ECB cutting interest rates from 1% - 0.5% was also part of solution, in addition to real labor and free market reforms, bank recapitalization, and a devalued Euro, but there was some investment bank note on Zerohedge (lost the link) saying that ECB cutting interest rates wouldn't help):
"The Bundesbank, the most hawkish of central banks, has signalled it would accept higher inflation in Germany as part of an economic rebalancing in the eurozone that would boost the international competitiveness of countries worst-hit by the region’s debt crisis.

A future German inflation rate above the eurozone average could be part of a natural adjustment process as crisis-hit countries pulled themselves out of recession, the Bundesbank argued in evidence to German parliamentarians submitted on Wednesday.

It followed comments at the weekend by Wolfgang Schäuble, German finance minister, backing stronger wage increases, which would boost domestic demand – benefiting other European countries exporting goods and services to Germany – but could drive German inflation rates higher.

Despite the Bundesbank’s conciliatory stance on inflation, German policy makers have been among the toughest in insisting that Greece sticks to its agreed reform programme underpinning its bailout in the aftermath of Sunday’s Greek election in which most voters rejected the plan. Speaking in Brussels, Mr Schäuble said that changing the bailout terms would unleash ‘’catastrophic uncertainty’’ in financial markets."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/604201-a-canadian-s-roadmap-for-greek-struggles/






So, all of the above being said, you might want to quantify how long your anticipated holding period is, and whether this is a large core position in your overall net worth, or play money / mad money you basically want to gamble with. If the former, I remember what John Manley (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?vide...nUGFnZSI6IjEiLCJzeW0iOiIiLCJzZWFyY2giOiIifQ==) said last November when things looked much, much gloomer: there were select opportunities in stock market then, but if you bought now, you might be very, very unhappy in year one or two, but quite possibly very, very happy 3 - 5 years from now.

If you are trying to trade vs. truly invest for the long-term, seems like this market is setting up as very, very dangerous place for anyone who isn't a really, really accomplished and nimble trader with appropriate diversification and risk management in place...
 
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JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,774
919
126
If the rest of the week continues today's trend, I can bow out of the market without much losses and wait for Europe to get sorted.
 
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