***Official*** 2016 Stock Market Thread

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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
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If it means anything the bank I work for has a commercial delinquency rate of less than 1/2 of 1%. The secret is short maturity dates (annual renewals), deep collateralization, close eye on covenants and required financial statements, lots of oversight and internal / external audits (state, federal, private). Also, it helps to have people who like to stay employed.

You appear to work at a good bank. I think I read somewhere that delinquencies for S&P rated companies was in the 3-4% range and we're already past the rate it was at when Lehman collapsed in 2008.

What's the logic for that? You would think that temp employment would go down in 2 very different scenarios - 1) fewer workers are needed so the numbers decline. But in that case you would also expect to see an increase in unemployment. And 2) There are more perm jobs so people are being transitioned from temp to full employment.

Do temporary workers include "contractors?" I've heard of "contractors" being classified as "between contracts" and not qualifying for unemployment.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
2,946
136
Do temporary workers include "contractors?" I've heard of "contractors" being classified as "between contracts" and not qualifying for unemployment.
I think it probably depends. Most contractors work through an agency which may or may not provide them with a salary independent of the contract they are working on. If they get paid on a 1099 I would guess yes. Otherwise, maybe not.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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Has anyone played with GLD or IAU gold ETFs?

They look like the simplest strict gold-price ETFs with no leveraging. Anything weird with how the taxes or handled or something else in particular?
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,401
386
126
What's the logic for that? You would think that temp employment would go down in 2 very different scenarios - 1) fewer workers are needed so the numbers decline. But in that case you would also expect to see an increase in unemployment. And 2) There are more perm jobs so people are being transitioned from temp to full employment.

I can see this going either way at this point. If full time employment is indeed contracting and the most recent numbers and revisions aren't just an aberration, then scenario (1) seems more likely. But if unemployment really is decreasing as indicated by the current 4.7% rate, then scenario 2 seems more likely.

That temps chart only seems to go back 3 recessions and for the first one, it's not really clear that there is a correlation.

I can agree with your points, thats why I only put the odds at 50%.

But there is something fishy about the Unemployment rate and the latest jobs report just showed it. Unemployment went down .2% but we only produced 38,000 jobs. Many months ago we produced almost 200,000 and the Unemployment rate didn't budge.
This could be happening because " a large number of people again left the workforce — and probably not because they are retiring en masse." (http://nypost.com/2016/06/03/ugly-jobs-report-is-even-worse-than-it-looks/) This would interfere with scenario 1, meaning we could have fewer jobs and a shrinking unemployment rate at the same time.

The one thing that keeps me from putting the odds of a recession higher is that the job openings are extremely high. There is definitely a disconnect between hiring and openings.
http://www.thealternativedaily.com/job-openings-record-high/
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
2,946
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That's a good point about job openings and the Fed looks carefully at the JOLTS report

 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
2,946
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Well, Janet seems to be talking down the idea of a rate hike in light of the recent jobs report but overall still remains positive. So June is out and July is looking less likely. Because of the election, the fed probably won't do anything until Dec.

This spring, consumer spending too has picked up considerably and wage growth is showing some -- albeit small -- signs of momentum.
Yellen described the mix of good consumer news and bad jobs news as "countervailing forces."

"I see good reasons to expect that the positive forces supporting employment growth and higher inflation will continue to outweigh the negative ones," Yellen said.
She pointed out that jobless claims have declined in May and that more workers are feeling confident about finding a job, as measured by the quits rate.

The Fed Chair also touched on global concerns, such as China's slowing economy and referendum vote in the United Kingdom, also known as Brexit. Yellen said a Brexit vote to leave the European Union would have "significant economic repercussions."
Yellen and the rest of the Fed's committee meet June 14-15.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/06/news/economy/janet-yellen-federal-reserve-us-economy/index.html
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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So, let me get this straight...

Worst job report in years, rate hike chances got kicked in the balls, probability of recession goes up... The S&P 500's response to that is to break through the 2100 point barrier it's been sitting at for the better part of a year.

And despite DXY barely budging today, both oil and the CAD rally hard... because recession risk just rose and that drives demand?

P.S. If anyone wants to believe a word Yellen says about the economy, don't forget about this guy:

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke told Congress on Wednesday he doesn't believe the economy will slip into a recession and rejected the notion raised by his predecessor, Alan Greenspan, that the economic expansion, which started in late 2001, could be running out of steam.

...

Last week the Fed again held a key interest rate steady at 5.25 percent, which hasn't budged since August. But the Fed also said there was a possibility that rates could go down or up.

Published: March 28, 2007

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bernanke-no-recession-on-horizon/

Liars, everyone one of them from guberment to CEOs to so called "economists" to the market.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
2,946
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I'm with Bernanke and Yellen. Long recoveries are consistent with a credit induced recession. There are a lot of things like housing that still haven't fully recovered. The causes of the economy's anemia are traceable to things like reduced capex in the energy sector and an increase in the savings rate. But as time goes on and people start to have some faith in the system, there will be more borrowing which will stimulate more economic activity. People still don't trust the financial system and it's probably going to be a while before a majority do.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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The recession Bernanke didn't see/believe officially started in December 2007. And he made the statement just as/before the housing market tanked. Even a year later he was spouting the same garbage. Article published February 14, 2008.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson both acknowledged problems in the U.S. economy Thursday, but both said they believe the nation will avoid falling into recession.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/14/news/economy/bernanke_paulson/

If your own analysis says one thing, okay, but the last thing I'd do is listen to the "experts" and the mainstream media.

Edit: Sweet Jésus... these were the economic numbers being reported in April 2008.

The Federal Reserve is also meeting and could decide to further reduce its key target rate for overnight lending to 2%.

...

Data in earlier April from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showed unemployment rising to 5.1%, from 4.8% the previous month, and 4.4% in March 2007.

...

Earlier this month, Bernanke, speaking before Congress’ Joint Economic Committee, remained optimistic that the economy would turn around in the second half of 2008.

...

Bernanke expects the economy to be growing at or above its usual pace by 2009.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/30/economy-recession-fed-biz-wash-cx_jz_0430econ.html
 
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Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
2,946
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The recession Bernanke didn't see/believe officially started in December 2007. And he made the statement just as/before the housing market tanked. Even a year later he was spouting the same garbage. Article published February 14, 2008.



http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/14/news/economy/bernanke_paulson/

If your own analysis says one thing, okay, but the last thing I'd do is listen to the "experts" and the mainstream media.

Edit: Sweet Jésus... these were the economic numbers being reported in April 2008.



http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/30/economy-recession-fed-biz-wash-cx_jz_0430econ.html
Are you sure you're not thinking of Greenspan? Everybody knew there was a housing bubble at the time. Hell, even I knew that when I was helping my ex sell her townhouse.

But virtually no one realized the extent of the derivative problem. And that's not really a surprise considering the fact that they were completely unregulated and you couldn't get any reliable information about them. I mean you had AIG issuing derivatives at 1000 to 1 reserve ratio, or something equally absurd. Even if you were in on some of the deals, you still couldn't see the big picture.

Have you seen The Big Short yet? Definitely worth watching. A few people saw what was coming but just an infinitesimal fraction of Wall Street.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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Are you sure you're not thinking of Greenspan? Everybody knew there was a housing bubble at the time. Hell, even I knew that when I was helping my ex sell her townhouse.

Have you seen The Big Short yet? Definitely worth watching. A few people saw what was coming but just an infinitesimal fraction of Wall Street.

I was talking about the quote where Benny-boy said there wouldn't be a recession in early 2007 in spite of the housing bubble that had popped already by 2007. Mortgage bonds and derivatives were tanking in 2007, yet he still said there wouldn't be a recession in 2008.

Ya, saw it and the best part is where it shows the market/big banks acting irrationally and/or covering their lies up.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
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IDK. As I said, Bernanke wasn't alone in not seeing what was happening. Maybe by 2007 he should have but I don't really remember. I think the ex sold in 2006 and I remember thinking 'this shit can't go on forever.'

But I have a lot of respect for both Bernanke and Yellen. Both have shown that they have the understanding and intelligence to lead the fed in the right direction. Now in Bernanke's case, he was a student of the great depression and I think did his doctoral thesis on it. So he was uniquely qualified to prevent what the fed in 1929 should have prevented. He was also circumspect enough to realize that he might have to drain liquidity very quickly and set up a novel approach to doing that by using reverse repos and the money market funds.

Yellen I respect because she realized that there were a lot of discouraged workers out there that needed to be brought back into the work force and was willing to risk inflation by continuing Bernanke's policies longer than most people were advising.

I understand that even the chair of the fed can be wrong, but if you're going to contradict their view, you need to have a solid argument against it. They have expertise that we don't and probably information we don't as well. I'm not saying to trust them blindly. We saw how well that turned out with Greenspan. But you have to give them due deference. For example everyone thought that QE was going create the Weimar Republic part deux here in the US. But everybody was wrong.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
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It looks like the pessimists might be right . . . Imp.

Lending stds have have been tightening in recent quarters and that tends to precede a recession.

Here's the article - http://www.businessinsider.com/wheels-of-economy-grinding-to-a-halt-2016-5

and the graph



It would be nice to know the reason for the tightening but article doesn't seem to get into that. My guess would be a gloomy economic outlook together with a narrowing yield spread.

Overall, I'm still optimistic though. I think if we get a recession it will be a technical one that lasts a couple of quarters - the minimum to qualify as a recession IIRC.

edit - oh, and the point was that as banks lend less, the money supply doesn't expand and the fed needs to maintain a liberal monetary policy. We may not go back to QE but I don't think we'll see a rate increase any time soon.

In other news, the Looney seems to be doing quite well.
 
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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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^Aaaaayyyyyyeeee man, I didn't want to be right. My big trade was against the CAD based on a strong US economy and rising Fed interest rates.

Then the world economy went to shit and I went into denial about how every other country on the planet could be crapping out but the U.S. would remain strong. Various recession indicators since late-2015 or early-2016 have started signalling recession and I changed my mind.

CAD/loonie is a joke. More news of layoffs regularly, commodity industry is dead, rising commercial and personal delinquencies, our largest trade partner may be in/entering a recession, but hey, house prices in Toronto and Vancouver rose 15% to 25% yoy.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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Haven't seen that, but it's in a hotel/condo at a Four Seasons so not that big a deal. There are crack-shacks that got for double or more in Vancouver.

Speaking of crack-shacks, while looking up stories back in 2006 and 2007 about the U.S. recession, I couldn't help but notice how similar they sounded to the shit reported in Canada's media almost daily.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
2,946
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You can have a bubble pop and not get eviscerated in the process. It was the MBSs with the bogus AAA rating that really caused the problem. Well, there were a lot of causes but this was the linchpin. If the rating agencies had given thorough, honest reviews of the MBSs they rated, everyone would have known how risky they were and would have acted accordingly.

So yeah, I'm sure that Canada is in for some pain when this bubble pops but it won't necessarily be the end of the world.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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We have a government-backed corporation that insures mortgages with <20% down called the CMHC. And I believe the government also insures mortgage insurance policies of a private sector company. Last I heard, the CMHC had <$50B (possibly half that) in assets backing over $500B in mortgages.

Mortgages in Canada are generally on 1-10 year terms, fixed or variable. Then there's the full-recourse mortgages. Only two provinces, if I recall correctly, have non-recourse mortgages and they're only for those with 20% down.

And a substantial portion of Canada's economy is directly related to real-estate from financing to construction to buying/selling.

Not pretty.
 
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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Well, good news from China again...

Exports in dollar-denominated terms tanked 4.1 percent on-year, more than double April's 1.8 percent fall and slightly worse than estimates for a 3.6 percent decline, Reuters said on Wednesday.

Imports meanwhile edged down 0.4 percent on-year, narrower than April's 10.9 percent tumble and the 6 percent slide anticipated.

Watch 4 dem videos:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/07/china-may-dollar-denominated-exports-decline-in-slight-miss.html

So, China buys crap from us to turn into more expensive crap to sell back to us. They are buying less crap from us and selling less crap back to us. That, obviously, means that the S&P 500 should go to 2500, oil should rally to $60, and commodities should keep going up.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,307
2,099
126
SILVER up 3% premarket. I bought 5 more Silver Eagles the other day on the dip and now have 16 physical ounces. The best part is that almost all my purchases were subsidized with health care gift card credits (you earn them for completing goals).

My investment is about $20 an ounce, but the actual cost is $4.11 an ounce.
 
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yuchai

Senior member
Aug 24, 2004
980
2
76
IDK. As I said, Bernanke wasn't alone in not seeing what was happening. Maybe by 2007 he should have but I don't really remember. I think the ex sold in 2006 and I remember thinking 'this shit can't go on forever.'

But I have a lot of respect for both Bernanke and Yellen. Both have shown that they have the understanding and intelligence to lead the fed in the right direction. Now in Bernanke's case, he was a student of the great depression and I think did his doctoral thesis on it. So he was uniquely qualified to prevent what the fed in 1929 should have prevented. He was also circumspect enough to realize that he might have to drain liquidity very quickly and set up a novel approach to doing that by using reverse repos and the money market funds.

Yellen I respect because she realized that there were a lot of discouraged workers out there that needed to be brought back into the work force and was willing to risk inflation by continuing Bernanke's policies longer than most people were advising.

I understand that even the chair of the fed can be wrong, but if you're going to contradict their view, you need to have a solid argument against it. They have expertise that we don't and probably information we don't as well. I'm not saying to trust them blindly. We saw how well that turned out with Greenspan. But you have to give them due deference. For example everyone thought that QE was going create the Weimar Republic part deux here in the US. But everybody was wrong.

I've always wondered whether the Fed even "tell it as it is"? So much of the economy/markets is based on sentiment and confidence. It would seem to me that the last thing that the Fed can do if they predict an impending collapse is to actually make the prediction. Does the Fed actually have a track record of calling out predicted downturns?
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,583
2,946
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I've always wondered whether the Fed even "tell it as it is"? So much of the economy/markets is based on sentiment and confidence. It would seem to me that the last thing that the Fed can do if they predict an impending collapse is to actually make the prediction. Does the Fed actually have a track record of calling out predicted downturns?
So far, I don't think so. But since the crisis, they seem to be getting better.

As for the psychology, you're absolutely right. That is critically important. But the fed does subscribe to a lot of opinion surveys like the SLOOS that I mentioned a few posts ago - senior loan officer opinion survey.

Those surveys are only as good as the participants' perspicaciousness so they can still be wrong. Things can change very suddenly and have a dramatic impact. But I think to the extent it's possible, the fed tries to keep their finger on the pulse of the economy.
 
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