***Official*** 2016 Stock Market Thread

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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
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It's actually very close to the same bet imo, as these both have been tracking extremely close to each other.

I'm not talking about SLV. I was referring to silver spot. Spot needs to fall another buck or so to hit $17.50 range. That's when I'll look at what SLV and NUGT are trading at. Until then, I don't really care.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Vancouver housing market related... Some realtor (Zolo) tracks sales in essentially real-time with a couple day lag and they chart it. Average prices in Vancouver now down 28.8% in a quarter. It's average prices which isn't the best metric but if true, wow, someone's $1.5 million crackshack bought in April or May could only be worth ~$1.1 million now = buyer underwater.

Edit: Rant about the personal finance skills of the average person and why it isn't a surprise there's a giant housing bubble.
 
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Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,595
2,958
136
China has been cracking down on capital outflows. Plus the yuan was up to something like 7 per USD last week I think. I'm not sure when the exchange rate was last that bad. Normally anything over 6.50 and people start shitting themselves.

So if you have a RE market that has even 5 or 10% Chinese participation. If they're the ones bidding up prices, when they leave, you're going to feel it.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
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Google "how many chinese millionaires" and you get studies saying 1 to 3 million millionaires versus 7 to 16 million Americans. But I agree, if foreigners leave and/or locals think the foreigners who were buying up all the houses leave: kablamo.

And people are saying that these prices are justified in Canada due to supply & demand. Isn't economic theory based on numerous assumptions including humans being rational actors and that buyers are informed?

Is FOMO rational? Keeping up with the Jones'? House prices only go up, buy now or never -- is that informed?
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,595
2,958
136
Is FOMO rational? Keeping up with the Jones'? House prices only go up, buy now or never -- is that informed?
Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119654/quotes
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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Edit: American commenting on Vancouver's housing market.

“Real estate price bubble is the work of media, not foreign money” reads the title of a short essay by Brendan Brown, an executive director and chief economist of Mitsubishi UFJ Securities International.

http://www.straight.com/news/765526...lame-vancouver-real-estate-hysteria-economist

Case in point:
...executive vice-president of Haven Developments, said he expects Vancouver's tax to increase property value in Toronto.

There's a VIDEO:
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/foreign-buyers-tax-sending-vancouver-house-hunters-to-toronto-1.3043050

Watched this yesterday. Story about Vancouver's market tanking becomes mainly a story about how the "foreign buyers" are all going to Toronto and going to boost this market. Main guy being interviewed? A developer.

And we wonder why people are going fucking crazy over houses? But but but, the foreigners.
 
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FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,312
2,101
126
Oil has been a nice trade. Currently long OAS for a bounce over $10. Credit Suisse says its worth $12. Current price - $9.50. Also looking at WLL, currently $7.50, worth $11.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,595
2,958
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And we wonder why people are going fucking crazy over houses? But but but, the foreigners.
I know you've been suspicious of the China explanation but do you really believe it's just coincidence that the RE markets in places where you allegedly had heavy Chinese involvement are starting to stumble just when a) China has implemented stringent capital controls and b) the yuan is tanking?

I mean sure, maybe it is in fact coincidence and it was really a feeding frenzy. But then if not Chine, what stopped the frenzy? In the US it was the banking crisis. What you're basically saying is that Canadians have finally come to their senses. And while I like to believe that and I give you guys more credit that I do most paranoid, panicky Americans, that seems odd to me,.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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I know you've been suspicious of the China explanation but do you really believe it's just coincidence that the RE markets in places where you allegedly had heavy Chinese involvement are starting to stumble just when a) China has implemented stringent capital controls and b) the yuan is tanking?

I mean sure, maybe it is in fact coincidence and it was really a feeding frenzy. But then if not Chine, what stopped the frenzy? In the US it was the banking crisis. What you're basically saying is that Canadians have finally come to their senses. And while I like to believe that and I give you guys more credit that I do most paranoid, panicky Americans, that seems odd to me,.

Edit: tldr.

In the U.S., it was interest rates rising which THEN caused the market to stumble in 2006 which THEN lead to delinquent mortgages which THEN lead to tanking securities/derivatives based on real-estate which THEN caused the banking crisis/global meltdown. Prices went up initially due to lax lending, low interest rates, greed, and FOMO.

In Canada, we have lax lending, low interest rates, greed, and FOMO. What makes us so different from the United States?

We're not different. Canadians haven't come to their senses. They're just scared of losing money instead of being scared of "buy now or never." If anything fundamental popped it, it was a deteriorating economy and being tapped out: see job losses, 2015 "technical recession," -0.6% GDP in May 2016, 165% debt-income ratio, 10x median price to median income ratio in Vancouver, etc.
 
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Reactions: Charmonium

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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Everything is awesome... Might be time to get into the repo-man business.

Delinquencies of at least 60 days for subprime auto loans are up 13 percent month over month for July, according to Fitch Ratings, and 17 percent higher from the same period a year ago.

Might be video:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/26/subprime-auto-loans-begin-to-slide.html

And there's some bullshit from Yellen about raising rates. But we've been hearing about that for the past year.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,847
5,457
136
Appears it wasn't Yellen's comments that sent the market down, it was some other guy at the Fed. Made it sound like they could hike it twice this year.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,595
2,958
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Edit: tldr.

In the U.S., it was interest rates rising which THEN caused the market to stumble in 2006 which THEN lead to delinquent mortgages which THEN lead to tanking securities/derivatives based on real-estate which THEN caused the banking crisis/global meltdown. Prices went up initially due to lax lending, low interest rates, greed, and FOMO.

In Canada, we have lax lending, low interest rates, greed, and FOMO. What makes us so different from the United States?

We're not different. Canadians haven't come to their senses. They're just scared of losing money instead of being scared of "buy now or never." If anything fundamental popped it, it was a deteriorating economy and being tapped out: see job losses, 2015 "technical recession," -0.6% GDP in May 2016, 165% debt-income ratio, 10x median price to median income ratio in Vancouver, etc.
My point was, why now? I don't know jack about Canada's RE market. Pretty much just what you've posted. So from what you've been saying, my impression is that the RE market has started to cool off. If that's the case and I haven't misread you, then aside from the China situation, what has changed that would have precipitated this change in attitude. As you say, interest rates are still low, banks are still lending, etc, etc.
Appears it wasn't Yellen's comments that sent the market down, it was some other guy at the Fed. Made it sound like they could hike it twice this year.
I think I know who you mean but can't remember the name. He was talking about the 'neutral rate of interest' which from what I could gather is the rate which neither stimulates nor depresses economic activity. It's not something that's reported anywhere but a number the fed apparently tries to divine.

He was saying that the nominal neutral rate is at about 2%. If inflation is around 1-1.5% then that means we need at least one rate hike this year to get interest rates at least in the same neighborhood as the neutral rate.

But I don't remember if this guy is current FOMC member and if so if he's a voting member. And even if he is, Yellen herself is pretty dovish and is going to push policy in that direction.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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My point was, why now? I don't know jack about Canada's RE market. Pretty much just what you've posted. So from what you've been saying, my impression is that the RE market has started to cool off. If that's the case and I haven't misread you, then aside from the China situation, what has changed that would have precipitated this change in attitude. As you say, interest rates are still low, banks are still lending, etc, etc.

I mentioned this a page or so back:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ouver-home-sales-foreign-buyers-tax-1.3694167

A 15% tax on foreign investors in Vancouver. Announced July ~20, 2016 and implemented August 2, 2016. If the rumor is that the Chinese are buying all the properties up, what do you do when you think that the Chinese are suddenly gone?

Also, a bad economy in Canada and overstretched borrowers. Commodity price drop lead to tens of thousands of layoffs in 2014 and 2015 -- unemployment runs 9 months max? Housing market exploded upward through 2015 to early 2016 in Vancouver and Toronto. What changed in 2015? Two central bank interest rate drops of 0.25% from 1.00% to 0.50%. And the RE market across Canada has been stagnant for a while now, it's mainly been Vancouver and Toronto going up.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,595
2,958
136
Oh. OK. So you've mainly been talking about localized bubbles. Yeah, shit like that happens everywhere. Look at London for example.

As far as the China issue though, if the Chinese were the ones bidding up prices, which to the extent they were in the market at all is likely, then it's not just rumors of their leaving that are going to influence people, it's their actual absence.

I know that in NYC this has been an issue - Chinese buying up properties at above market rates for investment purposes. I haven't heard anything recently though. However on Bloomberg radio there is this one RE investment company that seems to be buying most of their air time. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they're jonesing hard for investors right about now.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
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Mostly localized, but most major cities and surrounding areas have been bid up, some worse than others -- we don't have that many major cities.

China's there and they are bidding up prices. My only problem is that some people blame the Chinese for 100% of the price increases. Stats in British Columbia suggest 9/10 buyers are locals. Do I blame the 1/10 or the 9/10 doing the buying?
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,595
2,958
136
I don't know but RE is an illiquid market so you can get aberrations like price spikes you wouldn't normally get in more liquid markets from the activity of a relatively small number of market participants.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Canadian Q2 2016 GDP = -1.6%.

WTI down 4%.

CAD barely moved against USD. Just what I've come to expect.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
^EIA report showing a 2 million barrel build?

Wednesday is EIA day, Tuesday is API report after closing.

Edit: I forgot, don't worry about oil. Once it hits closer to $40, just wait for the "rumors" about an "OPEC production freeze." Worked the last dozen times.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
Bought some GLD today. Gold is down to close to pre-Brexit level. I think it can go back down to $1,270 level as the trend and sentiment is pretty negative right now. I thought about buying NUGT but I hate 3x ETF and I don't know the tax structure of NUGT. I also think miners are more vulnerable than gold even though many have corrected 40-50%. But that was after 200-400% rise from the low.

I also sold some Twitter trading shares I bought at $15 and used the profit to buy some British Queen's Beast gold coins.
 
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