***Official*** 2016 Stock Market Thread

Page 83 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,307
2,099
126
Holy crap! I just realized something.

W/S loves to handicap the future and it has been rising for a few reasons.....

1) Markets always go higher during election years, but we are at record highs, so maybe thats already priced in.

2) Anticipation of a Trump boost to the economy by loosening government regulation on the financial and other industries.

3) Adding $1T to the National Debt in new "stimulus spending" on "infrastructure".

As a result, the market expects and WANTS an interest rate increase, maybe as soon as December. The question is should it be .25% or .50%. My guess is .25%. And now for my hypothesis -

AFTER the rate decision is made, especially starting in January, if we continue to get strong economic data will the markets fall 10-15% like it did last January on fears that the Fed will have to raise rates in 1% increments, and where will it stop? Will too many increases put the brakes on earnings growth?

Usually W/S shoots first and ask questions later, so who knows what will happen. The selloff last January was a buying opportunity and any dip is bought these days, so who knows.

Well, the Nasdaq is down 2% intraday today. It's either profit taking (normal), or we or going to play the "lets worry about rates" game sooner rather than later.

QQQ $117.50, down $2.50 to $115.49, target $102????
 

turtile

Senior member
Aug 19, 2014
618
296
136
Well, the Nasdaq is down 2% intraday today. It's either profit taking (normal), or we or going to play the "lets worry about rates" game sooner rather than later.

QQQ $117.50, down $2.50 to $115.49, target $102????

Since tech has gone up a lot, I think it's just money moving to Energy (Oil).
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
So... in magical "forward looking" Wall Street land, we're currently looking at increased inflation from infrastructure stimulus and tax cuts. Now we're adding increased gas prices.

Word is that U.S. mortgage applications are already being hit because bonds are going up. Sub-prime auto loans also getting crappier.

This is going to get really interesting next year or even after December 14.

Edit: 10-year Treasury now at 2.44%.
 
Last edited:

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,758
43
91
Good thing I rely on Mortimer & Randolph Duke to effectively manage my money this year.

 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
^You should really ask Valentine instead.

Edit: And welp, it looks like there's no bubble in Toronto's housing market. After a bump up in interest rates and harder financing qualifications, market's never been better. Looks like $750k or something average price for a home is the new normal here on $80k median household incomes (average is like $100k?).

Meanwhile in Calgary where unemployment has hit ~10%, prices have, officially, only fallen ~5% or less from what I've seen -- 2 years into the oil & gas downturn. Yet people actually from there are sharing stories of foreclosures and product not moving. Stats suggest commercial vacancies are huge.
 
Last edited:

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Italy referendum vote results coming in shortly... Favored side is "no" but who knows.

Edit: Currently showing "No" side is leading. May be video, yo:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/04/ital...constitutional-reform-referendum-reuters.html

Edit-Edit: As expected, no one gives a shit, all the markets are up!

Edit-Edit-Edit: Government may be about to step in for Monte dei Paschi...

Italy is preparing to take a 2 billion euros controlling stake in Monte dei Paschi di Siena (BMPS.MI) as the bank's hopes of a private funding rescue fade following Prime Minister Matteo Renzi's decision to quit, two sources close to the matter said on Tuesday.

Potential video:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-banks-monte-dei-paschi-idUSKBN13V264
 
Last edited:

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
^Yep, non-OPEC countries agreed to removing ~600k barrels. U.S. crude production peaked around 9.5 million barrels per week in mid-2015 when oil hit ~$60? Oil now at ~8.7 million. Production costs now likely even lower due to defaults, mergers, acquisitions, tons of layoffs, surplus equipment, and surplus labor.

Fed meeting this week, rate hike is supposedly 100% probability on Wednesday. Combine higher rates with higher oil prices... Mortgage rates already going up, home purchases may already be dipping because of it. Now make debt servicing costs higher, make "essential" gasoline prices higher...
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,307
2,099
126
Yes, but the question is, are oil companies worth buying and holding now? I have about 500 shares of OAS and would like to add or take profits.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,627
126
Please someone convince me that we won't hit a local maximum tomorrow (Dow ~20,000 S&P ~2300) then fall once the fed increases rates. I'm too tempted to take profits now when I should just keep going with my normal buy and hold strategy.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,401
386
126
Please someone convince me that we won't hit a local maximum tomorrow (Dow ~20,000 S&P ~2300) then fall once the fed increases rates. I'm too tempted to take profits now when I should just keep going with my normal buy and hold strategy.

I am in the same boat as you. I desperately want to take profits as this has been too quick and too steady a climb, particularly in the banking sector, but I need to push some of my gains to next year or my tax bill may be higher than planned this year.

So why stay in the market? We haven't hit irrational exuberance yet as the retail investor is still not committed to join the party. When your barber is giving you stock tips, that's when you know. Second savings accounts still pay a paltry yield compared to dividend stocks which pay much higher yields. Third, if we get a tax holiday as the Republicans say we might, blue chips will be buying back stock and paying higher dividends. Don't want to miss that.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Please someone convince me that we won't hit a local maximum tomorrow (Dow ~20,000 S&P ~2300) then fall once the fed increases rates. I'm too tempted to take profits now when I should just keep going with my normal buy and hold strategy.

Long term rates rose a while ago in anticipation of the fed. I believe the current trends reflect anticipation of higher long term growth rates.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Yes, but the question is, are oil companies worth buying and holding now? I have about 500 shares of OAS and would like to add or take profits.

No idea... but looking at Suncor and XOM, their shares are pretty close to what they were in earlier 2014 when oil was still ~$90 or up. Suncor's done an acquisition or two but oil is still only ~$50.

So why stay in the market? We haven't hit irrational exuberance yet as the retail investor is still not committed to join the party. When your barber is giving you stock tips, that's when you know. Second savings accounts still pay a paltry yield compared to dividend stocks which pay much higher yields. Third, if we get a tax holiday as the Republicans say we might, blue chips will be buying back stock and paying higher dividends. Don't want to miss that.

It's sad how few options there are. Bonds are crashing and still yield crap, savings accounts and term deposits are extra lulz, some preferreds are tanking in anticipation of rate hikes, real estate is already insane in some cities (again), and the stock markets are at record highs even after inflation. "Broken" is the word I'd use to describe this.

Concerning the "tax holiday," I've read some things about how the "cash" of companies may be invested in stocks and bonds already. To repatriate the money, they'd have to sell. Zero sum game? And most of the cash is held by a few dozen companies.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,627
126
I am in the same boat as you. I desperately want to take profits as this has been too quick and too steady a climb, particularly in the banking sector, but I need to push some of my gains to next year or my tax bill may be higher than planned this year.

So why stay in the market? We haven't hit irrational exuberance yet as the retail investor is still not committed to join the party. When your barber is giving you stock tips, that's when you know. Second savings accounts still pay a paltry yield compared to dividend stocks which pay much higher yields. Third, if we get a tax holiday as the Republicans say we might, blue chips will be buying back stock and paying higher dividends. Don't want to miss that.
I'd be moving stocks in my 401k into a stable value fund (currently paying ~2.1%). So it wouldn't be a taxable event.

But, I guess for the same reason that you shouldn't catch a falling knife, I shouldn't let go of a soaring balloon. It just is getting quite hard to keep holding on.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,627
126
Concerning the "tax holiday," I've read some things about how the "cash" of companies may be invested in stocks and bonds already. To repatriate the money, they'd have to sell. Zero sum game? And most of the cash is held by a few dozen companies.
Exactly. They'd sell their stock, repay their loans to themselves, pay a token tax, then repurchase their stock. There wouldn't be much of a stock movement from a tax holiday.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,401
386
126
Exactly. They'd sell their stock, repay their loans to themselves, pay a token tax, then repurchase their stock. There wouldn't be much of a stock movement from a tax holiday.

The tax holiday is for overseas money. So if its in stocks or bonds its in foriegn stocks, so overseas markets would drop and US markets would rise correct?
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
The tax holiday is for overseas money. So if its in stocks or bonds its in foriegn stocks, so overseas markets would drop and US markets would rise correct?

I don't know about that... I'm technically a foreigner to the United States, but I can and have easily bought and held U.S. securities in my "foreign" accounts. The stuff I've read suggests something similar.

Edit: And there is supposedly a 95% probability of a rate hike tomorrow. Wonder if Jan Jan will blow the market away by not raising or by raising by 0.50%.
 
Last edited:

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,429
3,533
126
Please someone convince me that we won't hit a local maximum tomorrow (Dow ~20,000 S&P ~2300) then fall once the fed increases rates. I'm too tempted to take profits now when I should just keep going with my normal buy and hold strategy.

If your stock(s) did well I don't think its a bad idea to lock in some of your gains. My very general rule of thumb is if my gain on a stock is 1.5x the DJIA performance I consider locking in the profits. To ease my fears of 'missing out' I usually won't sell all of it otherwise I found I would hold onto things too long. I still have have 65 NTFLX shares even though I sold most of them Oct 27th from when I picked them up at $90 at the end of Feb.

That said I have also gotten more conservative as this run up is getting a bit long in the tooth for me. Time will tell whether that decision was along the lines of my GLID purchase in Jan or my NTFLX purchase in Feb...
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,627
126
The tax holiday is for overseas money. So if its in stocks or bonds its in foriegn stocks, so overseas markets would drop and US markets would rise correct?
I can't speak for every single company out there, but in general this is what happens:
1) US company wants to avoid taxes.
2) US company sets up a company overseas (in reality it is a fake company, but legally it is not) in a way that the overseas money will have a low, if not zero, tax rate.
3) US company makes very bad deal with that overseas subsidiary so that the overseas company makes the bulk of the profit. Often this is with a licensing deal that can't easily be valued.
4) Oversea company "loans" the profit back to US company.
5) US company invests this loan in US stocks.
...
Profit
...
6) Wait for US tax holiday, pay back the "loan", move all profits from the subsidiary to the US company, pay the token tax, and then the money is put back into US stocks. This can be done even without selling and rebuying the stocks if the loan is paid off with shares.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |