Discussion ***Official*** 2023 Stock Market Thread 💰

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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,835
5,452
136
And the real question is, why even increase? They are already around 2%, so if anything they should rather be ready to lower the rate.

It's closer to around 4%. Which even that, just based upon my own personal experience feels way too low.

Housing in particular has just gone completely bonkers. And that's with 6-7% mortgage rates.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,401
386
126
Long term, I think it will be a good one, short term not so much. One of the guys that helped Panera grow to it's size is responsible for the chain now, so I'm hopeful it will be a good long term investment. I put < $1000 into it.

I know IPO are usually not a good idea.
IPOs often take a similar pattern. They bounce high at first, then fall back. I think we see $20 - 30 from here. If they are a stinker they keep dropping, but if they are going to last they begin growing slowly after that and then sharply when the restaurant growth count really begins.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,299
2,097
126
Looks like nobody wants to sell the largest cap stocks. The smaller stocks drop like a rock if the market of largest stocks pull back just 1% or so.

Higher rates everywhere are starting to take a bite if you are in debt or need to take on debt. Not good times.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,315
2,922
126
Haven't bought anything in about a month. The strong jobs data looks to be the trigger for the inevitable slide I've been waiting for.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,398
4,963
136
Haven't bought anything in about a month. The strong jobs data looks to be the trigger for the inevitable slide I've been waiting for.
Yes god forbid that inflation is going down and people are keeping their jobs (which is actually their job) . Let's roll them over just because... :/

First they can't keep inflation down and then they want more unemployment, the two opposites of why they exists. Great job.
 
Reactions: GodisanAtheist

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,211
3,622
126
First they can't keep inflation down and then they want more unemployment, the two opposites of why they exists. Great job.
Trying to fight an aging population and lack of immigration (2 major contributors to the low unemployment rate) with interest rates is an impossible battle. It is like arriving to a gun fight with a stick of celery.

Same goes with fighting shortages in supply and extra demand from a pandemic. Interest rates really can't do much about it.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,299
2,097
126
Yes god forbid that inflation is going down and people are keeping their jobs (which is actually their job) . Let's roll them over just because... :/

First they can't keep inflation down and then they want more unemployment, the two opposites of why they exists. Great job.
But..but .but ... the FED is going to cut rates in October! That is what has propelled this move upward.

The only way they cut rates in October will be a black swan event that causes officials to panic, bids to be removed on debt securities forcing the Feds to step in with a bid.

Oddly enough they did not step in to save the oil market in April 2020. They let it go to zero and even negative numbers.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,398
4,963
136
I know I post videos from Sasha a lot, but besides his attacks at the feds, are the points he is posting valid?

 

Artorias

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2014
2,134
1,411
136
Yes, let's start reducing the rate and race to zero again. Sheesh.

The rate should never go below 5%, no matter what. There needs to be a standard where you either sink or swim. Stop getting drunk off zero percent interest rates.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
I have a chunk of money in a 5% savings account and another chunk in 5-5.5% treasury bills. The rate seems great and all when I get a random $1000 bill in my account at the end of the month but the tax bill is going to be irritating. It’s a pretty tax inefficient investment strategy.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,398
4,963
136
Yes, let's start reducing the rate and race to zero again. Sheesh.

The rate should never go below 5%, no matter what. There needs to be a standard where you either sink or swim. Stop getting drunk off zero percent interest rates.
Uhm, why 5%? It is a tool for stimulation or braking the economy, if anything it should be linked to the inflation, and then the fed could adjust it up to +/-1% depending on what would be most feasible.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,835
5,452
136
Yes, let's start reducing the rate and race to zero again. Sheesh.

The rate should never go below 5%, no matter what. There needs to be a standard where you either sink or swim. Stop getting drunk off zero percent interest rates.

The Federal Government can't afford high rates that long with the massive deficit. It's going back to zero soon enough. It's only a matter of when.

I still think what the Fed should do is continue to hike (at least) a quarter point each time until the economy crashes or RTO happens. Then cut to zero.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,211
3,622
126
The rate should never go below 5%, no matter what. There needs to be a standard where you either sink or swim. Stop getting drunk off zero percent interest rates.
There is an economic concept of the Natural Rate of Interest. This is defined as the interest rate that is neither stimulating nor suppressing the economy. It is an under-studied concept and it is difficult to measure an economy with a single value. For example, will lower interest rates stimulate consumer demand, leading to higher prices? Or will low interest rates stimulate manufacturer borrowing, leading to increased supply, and thus lower prices? Or a combination of both with an unpredictable outcome depending on what entities actually are doing the borrowing?

That said, people still do try to estimate the natural rate of interest. As far as they can measure, the natural rate of interest has been under 5% for quite some time. Sticking to an arbitrary lower limit of 5% would be harmful the economy in the long run.
 
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Reactions: biostud

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,835
5,452
136
Mortgage rates are at or over 7% now for fixed. And the ARM discount is gone too.

Yet it doesn't seem to be really hurting housing.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,398
4,963
136
I have a chunk of money in a 5% savings account and another chunk in 5-5.5% treasury bills. The rate seems great and all when I get a random $1000 bill in my account at the end of the month but the tax bill is going to be irritating. It’s a pretty tax inefficient investment strategy.
If your rate is not higher than inflation, you are still losing money.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,420
7,335
136
If your rate is not higher than inflation, you are still losing money.
The average over the past 12 months in the US is ~4%, and that might fall further as the spikes of last summer fall off, so savings accounts and whatnot making for than 4% are overall fine. And your personal inflation rate may be even lower, depending on how you typically spend, thanks to how that average rate is calculated.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
If your rate is not higher than inflation, you are still losing money.
Don’t worry, I get it and understand the math well. Cash and treasury bills are a small part of my investments but there is a lot of value in holding both and getting a half decent guaranteed rate. Most of my after tax savings is now going to cash but almost all of my retirement savings still goes to stocks.

Plus, as was mentioned, personal inflation rate is what matters. My house payment hasn’t moved, I own my cars, it’s just food really which is a small part of my budget.
 
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