Discussion ***Official*** 2023 Stock Market Thread 💰

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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,841
5,456
136
This whole fiasco is an important exercise in why you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Good to have cash on hand and even silver/gold for long term and also a separate bank account elsewhere. While FDIC is suppose to protect from this sort of thing, the protection is not instant, and in some cases it is non existent.

The insurance is only up to 250k. Those people will get their money back and should be able to withdrawal on Monday. But in this case that only applied to 3% of deposits.

The remaining 97% depends on how much the FDIC gets for their assets. Even uninsured have never lost money from a bank failure. So this would be the first time if the uninsured aren't made whole.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,309
2,099
126
Another SVB walk through with Sascha

According to the video, the idiot vc firms and start ups all rushed to remove money which exacerbated the loss the bank took on the bond sales. More money withdrawn, more bond sales.

"You guys better run! Remove all your millions now!"

Bank collapses.

"Waah! Bail us out 100% over $250,000 or contagion!"

The majority of people do not have $250,000+ in cash sitting in a bank account. They have nothing to fear and make up the vast majority of bank deposits (except SVB which was soley prone to VC money exiting quickly).
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,309
2,099
126

Looks like the government is going to provide 100% of bank deposits on Monday.

"No losses associated with the resolution of Silicon Valley Bank will be borne by the taxpayer,"

NAS futures +1.45%
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
Yep, another one bites the dust. Signature bank just went down. Can't wait for Monday.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,841
5,456
136
"No losses associated with the resolution of Silicon Valley Bank will be borne by the taxpayer,"

The text that I saw says they are going to use up the FDIC insurance fund for the uninsured. Could become a problem if it runs out of money? I don't think it was that big.

Either way the futures are probably right and it will be positive tomorrow.
 

Artorias

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2014
2,134
1,411
136
Humans are irrational. Hold on to your hats folks, going to be an intresting ride next week.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,631
126
I've spent 33 years in consumer and commercial banking. You are supposed to manage rate risk with short term duration bonds (90 day), hedges, etc. This is money you have to have ready on demand for withdrawal requests.

If you watch the video posted by Biostud above, it provides one reason why SVB failed (besides a concentrated customer base of tech startups vs mom and pop depositors):

They mentioned two types of holdings to invest customer deposits -

1)Bonds held for sale which are marked to market quarterly (they were forced to liquidate at a loss because the mix held longer term bonds which lost too much value)

2)Bonds held for investment which are longer term and kept on the books at face value until paid back in full.

The bank liquidated all the bonds held for sale and effectively lost over $1 billion in customer money. They had to raise capital to cover the loss. Unfortunately nobody came forth to buy the securities.

Overnight, people with millions of dollars at the bank realized they needed to get all their money out before everyone else causing a bank run. Now the bank was really screwed because they would have to liquidate all their bond holdings at a big loss.

The regulators knew that with no new capital and not enough money to cover all deposits (thank fractional reserve banking), THE BANK WAS TOAST. So they shut it down during working hours which is unheard of. They usually get shut down over a weekend.
You made all valid points. But it isn't limited to just SVB. Many, many banks are in a similar situation where their bonds are worth far less than they hoped. As long as the customers don't make a run, they'll be fine. But I expect another wave of bank failures. Hopefully, it will be small and contained.

But my main point was that rising interest rates are the worst time to buy bank stocks unless they are well diversified. May 2022:
To clarify, you should only be looking at bigger banks with a diverse income stream. A lot of small banks make the vast majority of their profits from refis and mortgages. Those banks will be hurting immensely for a few years.
July 2022:
Banks really do not do well when interest rates rise.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
I wonder what the next domino is to fall. First Republic Bank? Their stock also took a major dive on Friday. People are reporting major lines at ATMs trying to get their money out.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,631
126
The current interest rate environment has had dramatic effects on the profitability and risk profile of banks’ funding and investment strategies. First, as a result of the higher interest rates, longer term maturity assets acquired by banks when interest rates were lower are now worth less than their face values. The result is that most banks have some amount of unrealized losses on securities. The total of these unrealized losses, including securities that are available for sale or held to maturity, was about $620 billion at yearend 2022. Unrealized losses on securities have meaningfully reduced the reported equity capital of the banking industry.
The banking industry is sitting on a mountain of unrealized losses.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
First Republic Bank just got saved by the Fed. The 25 billion liquidity facility made for signature and svb is now 70 billion.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,841
5,456
136
The banking industry is sitting on a mountain of unrealized losses.

Which is fine since everyone knows the Fed will cut to zero eventually. Bailing out so soon isn't going to exactly help inflation or "inflation".
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,309
2,099
126
I wonder what the next domino is to fall. First Republic Bank? Their stock also took a major dive on Friday. People are reporting major lines at ATMs trying to get their money out.

They are wasting their time. The Fed has announced they will take any step necessary to ensure all withdrawal requests are met for any amount at any bank. There is no reason to do anything.
 
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Reactions: biostud

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,815
143
106
But bailout should not be a derogatory term for the US covering all amounts of depositors' cash over the $250K. It's an ok bailout. And I think most conservatives know deep down it's an ok or good bailout.

Or possibly bailout is too strong a term, and people should call it coverage or a similar term. Because it's been the norm for decades. Meaning most conservatives and liberals for years have condoned the idea of having sums over $250K of cash assured in a bank failure.

And that's for individual and corporate cash depositors. I'm not addressing if corporations should get 2008 style US loans or gifts of $billions for business survival.

Edit: I'm saying it should just be coverage for all amounts of cash deposits. I realize the US doesn't guarantee that in writing. But it's generally accepted that they would for decades. So why would conservatives or fringe liberals denounce the over $250K cash coverage for SVB depositors? That would not be very consistent in reasoning. Not that many are denouncing it now. So what I've said may not even be much of an issue at this point in time.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,841
5,456
136
Edit: I'm saying it should just be coverage for all amounts of cash deposits. I realize the US doesn't guarantee that in writing. But it's generally accepted that they would for decades.

Because normal people take the insurance limits into account. Techbros are special though. You're putting the FDIC insurance at risk of collapsing itself. Not to mention this could in theory kill the inflation fight. I suspect this is just a bump in the road though.

Anyway, the futures were up BIG for awhile but have gone back to mainly flat.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,406
4,967
136
A bank =/= a bank. If you a VC you should know this and do your risk management accordingly. Normal people do not need to understand this, because of the $250,000 guarantee.

From what I understand SVB had attracted a lot of high-risk customers that got a simultaneous panic attack and started a bankrun crashing the bank. That begs the questions:

Why did SVB attract these customers?
Why did they all panic?
Could it have been prevented?
 
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