Discussion ***Official*** 2024 Stock Market Thread 💰

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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
A Ukraine drone hit one of putin's biggest refineries yesterday
And oil prices are up 1.9% today from yesterday (and it seems to be likely to keep climbing).

I'm not sure how rate hikes will solve that problem.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,284
2,093
126
And oil prices are up 1.9% today from yesterday (and it seems to be likely to keep climbing).

I'm not sure how rate hikes will solve that problem.
Rate hikes slow down economic activity to some extent and could theoretically lead to lower oil demand.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,765
912
126
A Ukraine drone hit one of putin's biggest refineries yesterday
Shouldn't that lower oil prices? If that refinery can't process oil, there's more oil on the market.

In other new Tesla's down over 30% for the year. Good thing I sold my covered calls a few weeks ago.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,517
2,896
136
Yup, bond yields jumped today. But that MIGHT just mean that we don't see rate cuts anytime soon
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,517
2,896
136
Shouldn't that lower oil prices? If that refinery can't process oil, there's more oil on the market.

They sell most of their oil to south and east Asia. So that would mean that those buyers would have to buy from the legal market which is reflected in quoted prices like NYMEX
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
They sell most of their oil to south and east Asia. So that would mean that those buyers would have to buy from the legal market which is reflected in quoted prices like NYMEX
Yes. It means that Russia will have to import diesel. That means all the countries that they will now import diesel from need to buy more oil--temporarily raising oil prices until Russia can get more of its oil out.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,517
2,896
136
I don't know this for a fact but as one of world's largest producers, it seems unlikely that they would need imports.

Just FYI, most if not all Russian oil is sold on the black market. How you ask. They ship it out on tankers that then meet up with black market dealers on the open sea. The oil is then transferred and off it goes to parts unknown (China and India for example - shushhhhh)
 

Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
8,198
661
126

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,517
2,896
136
Look at a historical chart of interest rates. The decade after the 2008 meltdown was an aberration. Financial markets are based largely on trust and that trust died with Lehman.

Even with all of the liquidity the fed was trying to push into the markets, no one was buying - 'pushing on a string' as was the vernacular at the time.

When covid descended upon us, things were just starting to get back to normal. Then came all of the pandemic giveaways, supply chain problems, etc.

I'm on a phone at the moment and I'm too lazy to look it up but IIRC historical 'risk free' rates have hovered around 5%. So if I'm correct, with inflation at around 3%, we're doing quite well.
 

Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
8,198
661
126
Look at a historical chart of interest rates. The decade after the 2008 meltdown was an aberration. Financial markets are based largely on trust and that trust died with Lehman.

I'm on a phone at the moment and I'm too lazy to look it up but IIRC historical 'risk free' rates have hovered around 5%. So if I'm correct, with inflation at around 3%, we're doing quite well.

Remember - Wall St projected 6, yes SIX rate cuts for 2024 as they expected a return to ZIRP. The new normal they projected/expected is a 2% Fed Funds rate and sub 5% mortgage rates.

MMT says we need this Govt intervention and with $34, no make that $35T in debt...we can't have higher for longer as the interest payments near $1T a year.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,389
4,951
136
Housing is one of the major contributors to the inflation and it is high because it is a lagging indicator and because the rate is high. If you remove housing from the inflation, then it is pretty close to 2%.
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
we can't have higher for longer as the interest payments near $1T a year.
The federal reserve has absolutely nothing to do with how much government debt we have, nor do they really care if the interest payments are too high for the federal government. Controlling government debt and/or affordability of that debt isn't their job. It is actually the opposite of their job. They want government spending to go down with higher interest rates to help cool the economy.

I think you are confusing the federal reserve with the federal government.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
Housing is one of the major contributors to the inflation and it is high because it is a lagging indicator and because the rate is high. If you remove housing from the inflation, then it is pretty close to 2%.
I agree, but there is a catch. Housing interest rates are not included in inflation. Meaning if the interest rates go up and new mortgages (or variable rate mortgages) are more expensive, then that added expense is not considered to be inflation. If you add the actual cost to actual people into the inflation calculation, then it goes back up again.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,284
2,093
126
Shorting...

NVDA...bloated 1999 dot com
TSLA...market saturation
XOM...because it's about damn time
MSFT...I still use Win 10
AAPL.. no AI
VKTX...worth billions and zero revs
MSTR...fat piggy 🐷
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,284
2,093
126
Remember - Wall St projected 6, yes SIX rate cuts for 2024 as they expected a return to ZIRP. The new normal they projected/expected is a 2% Fed Funds rate and sub 5% mortgage rates.

MMT says we need this Govt intervention and with $34, no make that $35T in debt...we can't have higher for longer as the interest payments near $1T a year.
I have said there would be zero cuts this year.

Maybe I should short bonds.
 

Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
8,198
661
126
The federal reserve has absolutely nothing to do with how much government debt we have, nor do they really care if the interest payments are too high for the federal government. Controlling government debt and/or affordability of that debt isn't their job. It is actually the opposite of their job. They want government spending to go down with higher interest rates to help cool the economy.

I think you are confusing the federal reserve with the federal government.

If you believe the Fed Reserve has not been politicized...

They've done a piss poor job of this as ZIRP was their doing, QE to the extreme was their doing, and statements like "inflation is transitory" is on them.

JPow has been decent of late, but still think we could use another rate increase or two as the spread between the ST & LT rates is laughable and why the 10yr languishes at 4%, all because no one trusts the Fed to not revert back to ZIRP.

There is new fear at the Fed around pent up exuberance once rates get cut and inflation raging again.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
They've done a piss poor job of this as ZIRP was their doing, QE to the extreme was their doing, and statements like "inflation is transitory" is on them.
In the end, it was transitory. People might not like how it spiked for 2 years. But it came right back down to below the historical 3.4% average inflation.

 
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Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
8,198
661
126
In the end, it was transitory. People might not like how it spiked for 2 years. But it came right back down to below the historical 3.4% average inflation.

Yellen kinda-sorta-in-a-way disagrees with you:
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
If you believe the Fed Reserve has not been politicized...
Even if you pretend that the federal reserve is politicized, US government debt affordability is not something the federal reserve has in its mandate. They'd have to blatantly break the law to do things based on the affordability to the US government.
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
Yellen kinda-sorta-in-a-way disagrees with you:
She may regret calling it transitory. But it still technically was transitory.
"1. not lasting, enduring, permanent, or eternal.
2. lasting only a short time; brief; short-lived; temporary."

The high inflation was not lasting, enduring, permanent, or eternal. It perfectly fits definition #1. Yellen is just discussing definition #2 that has different time spans to different people. This recent inflation spike was shorter than the spike around 1970 and shorter than the pair of spikes from the mid 1970s to early 1980s. But, no it was not just a few weeks long.
 
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Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
8,198
661
126
She may regret calling it transitory. But it still technically was transitory.
"1. not lasting, enduring, permanent, or eternal.
2. lasting only a short time; brief; short-lived; temporary."

The high inflation was not lasting, enduring, permanent, or eternal. It perfectly fits definition #1. Yellen is just discussing definition #2 that has different time spans to different people. This recent inflation spike was shorter than the spike around 1970 and shorter than the pair of spikes from the mid 1970s to early 1980s. But, no it was not just a few weeks long.

Semantics on this one are tough - point is the Fed thought inflation would be temporary, even so much as to think that prices would deflate once the shortages subsided - but they did not. We're up over 15% on the "not real world" gauge the Govt uses.

The average laymen would say that Inflation has lasted, it has endured, and it has become permanent as their pocket books tell them so.

Inflation has been far from "brief, short lived, and temporary".

 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,284
2,093
126
The thing with words that imply a period of time but do not specify a particular limit can apply to anything.

The 48 hour lifespan of the Mayfly is transitory.

The shelf life of milk is transitory.

The Feds current rate hike cycle appears to be transitory.

The 500m year Precambrian Era was pretty long but was transitory in Earth's overall time-line.

The current lifespan of the Sun is transitory.

....but you know what?

The Feds target inflation rate of 2% is permanent. Which is odd because we need deflation to make life affordable again.
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,185
3,609
126
The thing with words that imply a period of time but do not specify a particular limit can apply to anything.

....but you know what?

The Feds target inflation rate of 2% is permanent. Which is odd because we need deflation to make life affordable again.
Which is why Yellen regrets using the term. As I said above, it means different things to different people.

The 2% goal is odd because the historical average is roughly 3.4%. So, to set the goal below what is normal is a bit odd. The goal is not deflation because deflation often (but not always) totally destroys economies and then no one can afford anything. Think of the great depression or Japan's lost 3 decades.

Remember deflation means your wages eventually get CUT--that is the only way businesses can survive through long periods of deflation as year after year the business brings in less and less money. Your wages are cut either through firing you or through lowering your salary/hourly wage. Then think about paying back any debt you might have--after your income drops.

Deflation can never be a sane person's goal. Wage growth to catch up is a sane goal though.
 
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