Official AMD Ryzen Benchmarks, Reviews, Prices, and Discussion

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sushukka

Member
Mar 17, 2017
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The reason I say 90% use windows is because that means 90% of PC's have access to DirectX. It still isn't any difference than it ever has been. So right away you talking about one Development platform/API that 90% of the PC market has access to. Scorpio then adds to that. The Xbone like the original PS4 doesn't have room for API overhead, the PS4 due to it's OS not being windows based has games written specifically for the hardware, the Xbone, again not having room is also pretty much written to metal with some DX handles to fit OS requirements. Scorpio basically takes its 2013 mid level graphics and archaic netbook cores, and makes it a 2017 mid level desktop APU. Meaning it's not going to give a Titan set up a run for it's money, but it's got room to take a PC developed game, port it over and optimize it for the Scorpio hardware. I think it's more likely that Scorpio supported games will actually be from the PC development tree and not the PS4/Xbone tree. The PS4 Pro just being a faster refresh of the original APU in the previous version, will just get a PS4/Xbone release optimized for the faster performance. In the end for the Scorpio will be easier to write for by taking a DX12 port of whatever development platform they are using and optimizing it, instead of having to have a PS4/Xbone/PS4Pro metal, a Scorpio Metal/DX, and a PC Vulkan release.

id is the only company I know of that has ever sat back on it's engine and developed it for non-DX setup from the beginning and id Tech 4 they still were forced to throw in DX support. While it's great to see more industry wide support for Vulcan, I doubt that it gets as much penetration as you would hope considering it would require yet a another code break from the consoles, including Scorpio that would without Vulcan be able to use a DX port with optimization. So they could either design for the Xbone/PS4/Pro and then work with a DX package for PC/Scorpio. One require 3 development paths and the other 2. Then you add the fact that they aren't going to just do DX11/Vulcan. What most will do till DX11 is dead is probably DX11, DX12, and Vulcan. Hedging their bets. What Vulcan needs to do is be head and shoulders better than DX. This is where AMD bites themselves in the ass. AMD has always tried to support any API equally, they kind of have to if they pulled what Nvidia has with DX12, it would just be yet another reason not to get an AMD GPU. Nvidia has always held DX and Microsoft in Contempt. They will work on the DX12 setup when the pressure is on but they have always been slow to optimize for DX and even actively pushed for OpenGL adoption in the past. If Nvidia competently supported DX12 and AMD gave it the shaft, then Nvidia would be the king in DX12 and when Vega came out it could do well in DX11 and Vulkan and DX12 would look like crap, Nvidia would still be the king of the mountain, and would use Vulkan to finally push MS off the mountain top on API's by continuing to optimize for Vulcan over DX12. Problem is if Vega is within even 10% of the 1080 non-ti in DX11 it will blow away a Titan in DX12. This will cause Nvidia to work on fixing DX12 performance. Which means both cards will be closer to being optimally optimized for DX12 which increases the hurdle a properly optimized Vulkan game implementation has to overcome. Once you add Scorpio on top of that you basically make it hard for me to see Vulcan making much of a push past the original marketing implementations. It's got to be noticeably better.

I have seen this story played out dozens of times going all the way back to DX6. Every other release someone tries to unseat it. This time there is a bigger chance than ever before. But scorpio becomes that last hurdle that I doubt Vulcan can overcome. If you are going to sell Scorpio games you are going to write for DX12 and if you are going to do DX12 for Scorpio, you are going to offer it on the PC version and AMD with Vega will force Nvidia to fix their DX12 performance, which will cause any potential gap in DX12 to Vulcan close a lot. Vulcan can still be better but will it be worth the development time.

Good points but even with that reasoning I'm not convinced that Vulkan would stay in minority in the future. Scorpio is one console yes, it can help Microsoft gain back its somewhat lame share (24mil vs PS4 50mil) of the current console war...or not. Also PS4 seems to get more and more pretty amazing exclusive games when the times go on. PS4 also started its VR game quite early and has sold already one million units and this will tie users even more to Sony's ecosystem. On VR there are already some nice PS4 VR exclusives like Resident Evil 7. Microsoft has also tarnished their reputation quite a bit when they tried to inroduce the restrictions for used games market etc. People don't tend to forget these type of things and it brings the question when MS is going to try something similar again. At the end of the day Scorpio will have quite a load on its shoulders when trying to shake PS4 dominance.

Some other points:
  • As said above Microsoft has pretty bad reputation and for good reasons which times back for about two decades. Point is that you use MS solutions if you generally are forced to do that. Otherwise you use more open solutions if available. There is a reason why we have Linux/Unix based operation systems everywhere, IE browser share is ~10%, basically no MS on mobile market and Vulkan is one more alternative on this list. Would be interesting to see how much Windows share would decline if you could have similar gaming support on eg SteamOS with help of Vulkan instead of Windows tied DX. Linux is in many ways better OS but gaming has been its achilles heel.
  • I don't recall there has ever been this much support and future plans to any other DX competing tech before. Big amount of high-end games tend to use some of the game engines mentioned before. It's just too expensive nowadays to do everything by yourself. That's why having those engines on Vulkan support list is not a small matter at all.
  • Nintendo is one of the major players with its own hardware but also nowadays with games on mobile market. Developers on the new Switch (quite a hot start at least with 1,5 million units in a week) can choose Vulkan, OpenGL or OpenGL ES.
  • Don't forget the mobile market. There are billions of mobile devices which are also used for gaming. Today's youngsters seems to spend significant amount of their time for mobile gaming. Because this and costs of mobile playing being so much less than on other platforms, this market segment will probably continue its growth. Also there are more and more cross-platform games spanning especially to the mobile devices like Fallout4 had it's own minigame before the actual game, WoW has it's own mobile remote app and all major game brands tend to have some mobile version too. There are already lots of knowledge on mobile gaming sector because it's so much easier/cheaper to establish a startup on this side. These developers now mainly use OpenGL but in future Vulkan. This will affect the attitude and magnitude of the used game APIs on the market. Point is that even you now write pure DX11/DX12 games you cannot ignore the rest of the gaming market. Games are all about brands and they don't bow to any specific platform. Companies owning these brands try to make as much profit of them as possible by spreading them everywhere. If there would be one common API, developers would choose it with wide grin.
To sum this up, all monopolies are bad. Microsoft has played this game for a long time and now they are getting hit from every direction for a good reasons. It seems that MS will have a hard time with their strategy in the future. Only Scorpio will be purely DX based hardware on the market. All other platforms support Vulkan or OpenGL (which will in future probably merge to Vulkan). To me it seems that for developers having as wide Vulkan support as possible would definitely be the best way to go. To consumers this would be also win-win and most of all we should not forget that Vulkan has already proven to quite a beast eg. Doom benchmarks.
 
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ryzenmaster

Member
Mar 19, 2017
40
89
61
So I just finished watching this comparison of DX11 vs DX12 using Ryzen 1700 and RX470 vs GTX1060. Quite interesting how much the Ryzen + RX470 combo gains from moving over to DX12.. Nvidia on the other hand seems to be losing performance.

 
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Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,655
136
1. Microsoft does have a bad reputation and has many fails where they have gone from the biggest to nearly nothing. I did note that this is probably the closest that anyone has come. I just don't see it. Windows share won't decline, it can't decline. Mainly because you have to include DX11 support in the software for a long time. The chances of seeing someone do DX11 and Vulcan instead of DX11, 12, and Vulcan is going to be minimal.
2. There has been. Hell for 5 years everyone was using the either Quake 2 or Quake 3 engines in just about every game. Those were designed around OpenGL because Carmack didn't like and didn't trust Microsoft. Hell 3d gaming started on OpenGL/Glide. id was making so much off of their engines that they basically took like a 6 year break from developing any games. 2/3 or 3/4 of the AAA games that came out around this time had deep support for OpenGL, but almost none of them actually even enabled OpenGL support in the software. Now back in the day it was much smaller teams with much less money to spend. But still it was there, but ATI cards sucked in OpenGL, and it was better and cheaper to work with the one API that worked well with both.
3. Nintendo is another beast altogether. On one hand the Switch might have sales numbers to push companies to develop for it. On the other hand it is still so far behind Sony and MS (even their 4 year old models) that it needs it's own development branch. Capacity limitations means it requires compressed assets. Compressed assets means more CPU overhead load assets. Much worse CPU and GPU with a much smaller feature set. Non-compatible CPU. Nothing that is done on the switch is really transferable or vice versa.
4. Mobile market is the same as the Switch and this is the same scenario that they have been facing since Apple first launched the iPhone. People developing for OpenGL for platform specific offerings still don't go back to PC development and start writing for OpenGL in desktop games. In fact even if the mobile market game is Rockstar, EA, or Activision, they are written by teams that work primarily on mobile market games and don't have anything to do with desktop development. It doesn't matter to EA they have to OpenGL on a play store app and DX12 on the desktop. What EA cares about is the most amount of sales with the least amount of development time. Since mobile apps are their own monsters, then desktop development will have a completely separate eval.

So the question then becomes. And this ties back on to your feelings of Scorpio (and god that sounds smug talking about 24 million consoles like its bad thing.) It's not just about exclusives though its the most important part. It's about interface, its about connectivity, its about controller feel. I have a One and PS4 and I like my Xbox a lot more for gaming so the only PS4 games I get are exclusives. Which only about 3-4 really good exclusives to me are even available. Sadly the PS4 spends a large portion of it life powered off. But I am probably an edge case. Scorpio though will be a different beast. The Xbox ecosystem already established. The resources Scorpio will offer will allow for easier porting over from PC or vice versa. The Xbox uses DX, and the GPU will be a DX12 GPU. So a developer can work on optimizing Vulkan on the desktop and then DX on the Xbox? It's not going to happen every game that will be supported on both will optimize both for DX. Why because even with the Xbox's "lame share" game sales on that console are much more important than PC sales. We know console development drives PC development and it's useless to say otherwise. Some developers also try not completely screw over PC users, and we can thank them for that. But if Vulkan is only a neutral to slight positive move from DX12 there is little reason to optimize the game for it even if the engine supports it. That is where this RotTR video and subsequent DX12 on Nvidia hardware eval is going to bite Vulkan development in the long run. We are still a while away from seeing Vulcan options in game as a normal thing. Companies will hedge their bets for a little while by including DX and Vulcan support in games. Having AMD with working DX12 options if combined with a competitive card will pressure Nvidia to optimize their hardware/software for DX12. The closer that DX12 comes to having a truly optimized performance on all Nvidia and AMD hardware the higher the hurdle Vulkan has to overcome. If Vulkan doesn't have an actual performance benefit than the little amount of hooks and calls in the PS4/PS4Pro/Switch when writing for metal will mean nothing, when they have do the same for the metal code with DX hooks on the XboxOne, and the much more API driven implementations on Scorpio will require DX and there is little to no reason to duplicate that work if they can just copy paste it into the PC version since there won't be a performance benefit.

Scorpio doesn't even have to sell that well. But it brings up another point. A lot of PS4 sales growth and continued growth was due to it having a visible but mediocre performance advantage over the Xbone. Scorpio will have a massive lead if rumors are correct. I have to think that it will impact Xbox adoption to some degree.
 

Oddzz

Junior Member
Mar 15, 2017
21
16
41
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-amd-ryzen-7-1800x-review

Has comparisons of the 1800X, 7700K, 5960X, and 6900K under RotTR DX12 with a Titan X @ 1080.

1800X is 85.8. The 3 Intel CPUs are 126.5 to 129.

Eurogamer copied the results from the Digital Foundry review. I gathered some numbers together of other reviewers for RotTR if you are interested in this.
vs 7700K: http://i.imgur.com/usSiFqf.png
vs 6900K: http://i.imgur.com/Evag1jq.png

There is also this review from German tech magazine "C't" which is quite interesting because they figured out first that there is something wrong with Ryzen and Nvidia GPUs on DX12 in Tomb Raider.
Table comparing Fury X vs Titan X: http://i.imgur.com/OjSIcgM.jpg
My own sheet because their numbers are hard to read: http://i.imgur.com/Hh02eaV.png
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,359
5,017
136
A Fury X shouldn't even be in the same neighborhood as a Titan XP. Yet here it is :


nVidia's driver must not run well on Ryzen for some reason.
 

lolfail9001

Golden Member
Sep 9, 2016
1,056
353
96
A Fury X shouldn't even be in the same neighborhood as a Titan XP.
There are 2 types of people: those that don't understand GPU bottlenecks and those that do not understand CPU bottlenecks.

Scorpio doesn't even have to sell that well. But it brings up another point. A lot of PS4 sales growth and continued growth was due to it having a visible but mediocre performance advantage over the Xbone. Scorpio will have a massive lead if rumors are correct. I have to think that it will impact Xbox adoption to some degree.
I trust Microsoft to fail it anyways. And even then, ultimately Scorpio adoption is irrelevant in regards to Dx12 adoption.
 

legcramp

Golden Member
May 31, 2005
1,671
113
116
There are 2 types of people: those that don't understand GPU bottlenecks and those that do not understand CPU bottlenecks.


I trust Microsoft to fail it anyways. And even then, ultimately Scorpio adoption is irrelevant in regards to Dx12 adoption.


And there are types of people who likes to troll all the time because they have no life.
 

lolfail9001

Golden Member
Sep 9, 2016
1,056
353
96
And there are types of people who likes to troll all the time because they have no life.
You the people lack wit in rebuttals and wisdom in reactions, that's for sure.

Well, time to fire up the popcorn to see what other press takes on the task of redoing a whole bunch of benchmarks with Fury X on low resolution on both 7700k and Ryzen.
 
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sushukka

Member
Mar 17, 2017
52
39
61
1. Microsoft does have a bad reputation and has many fails where they have gone from the biggest to nearly nothing. I did note that this is probably the closest that anyone has come. I just don't see it. Windows share won't decline, it can't decline. Mainly because you have to include DX11 support in the software for a long time. The chances of seeing someone do DX11 and Vulcan instead of DX11, 12, and Vulcan is going to be minimal.
2. There has been. Hell for 5 years everyone was using the either Quake 2 or Quake 3 engines in just about every game. Those were designed around OpenGL because Carmack didn't like and didn't trust Microsoft. Hell 3d gaming started on OpenGL/Glide. id was making so much off of their engines that they basically took like a 6 year break from developing any games. 2/3 or 3/4 of the AAA games that came out around this time had deep support for OpenGL, but almost none of them actually even enabled OpenGL support in the software. Now back in the day it was much smaller teams with much less money to spend. But still it was there, but ATI cards sucked in OpenGL, and it was better and cheaper to work with the one API that worked well with both.
3. Nintendo is another beast altogether. On one hand the Switch might have sales numbers to push companies to develop for it. On the other hand it is still so far behind Sony and MS (even their 4 year old models) that it needs it's own development branch. Capacity limitations means it requires compressed assets. Compressed assets means more CPU overhead load assets. Much worse CPU and GPU with a much smaller feature set. Non-compatible CPU. Nothing that is done on the switch is really transferable or vice versa.
4. Mobile market is the same as the Switch and this is the same scenario that they have been facing since Apple first launched the iPhone. People developing for OpenGL for platform specific offerings still don't go back to PC development and start writing for OpenGL in desktop games. In fact even if the mobile market game is Rockstar, EA, or Activision, they are written by teams that work primarily on mobile market games and don't have anything to do with desktop development. It doesn't matter to EA they have to OpenGL on a play store app and DX12 on the desktop. What EA cares about is the most amount of sales with the least amount of development time. Since mobile apps are their own monsters, then desktop development will have a completely separate eval.

So the question then becomes. And this ties back on to your feelings of Scorpio (and god that sounds smug talking about 24 million consoles like its bad thing.) It's not just about exclusives though its the most important part. It's about interface, its about connectivity, its about controller feel. I have a One and PS4 and I like my Xbox a lot more for gaming so the only PS4 games I get are exclusives. Which only about 3-4 really good exclusives to me are even available. Sadly the PS4 spends a large portion of it life powered off. But I am probably an edge case. Scorpio though will be a different beast. The Xbox ecosystem already established. The resources Scorpio will offer will allow for easier porting over from PC or vice versa. The Xbox uses DX, and the GPU will be a DX12 GPU. So a developer can work on optimizing Vulkan on the desktop and then DX on the Xbox? It's not going to happen every game that will be supported on both will optimize both for DX. Why because even with the Xbox's "lame share" game sales on that console are much more important than PC sales. We know console development drives PC development and it's useless to say otherwise. Some developers also try not completely screw over PC users, and we can thank them for that. But if Vulkan is only a neutral to slight positive move from DX12 there is little reason to optimize the game for it even if the engine supports it. That is where this RotTR video and subsequent DX12 on Nvidia hardware eval is going to bite Vulkan development in the long run. We are still a while away from seeing Vulcan options in game as a normal thing. Companies will hedge their bets for a little while by including DX and Vulcan support in games. Having AMD with working DX12 options if combined with a competitive card will pressure Nvidia to optimize their hardware/software for DX12. The closer that DX12 comes to having a truly optimized performance on all Nvidia and AMD hardware the higher the hurdle Vulkan has to overcome. If Vulkan doesn't have an actual performance benefit than the little amount of hooks and calls in the PS4/PS4Pro/Switch when writing for metal will mean nothing, when they have do the same for the metal code with DX hooks on the XboxOne, and the much more API driven implementations on Scorpio will require DX and there is little to no reason to duplicate that work if they can just copy paste it into the PC version since there won't be a performance benefit.

Scorpio doesn't even have to sell that well. But it brings up another point. A lot of PS4 sales growth and continued growth was due to it having a visible but mediocre performance advantage over the Xbone. Scorpio will have a massive lead if rumors are correct. I have to think that it will impact Xbox adoption to some degree.
Jeez, this replying is starting to take time...
1. Windows share is declining and will decline. Windows server is generally lost the battle in its territory. On workstations and desktops windows will be for a some while, but as more and more services are going to cloud the relevance of used os is diminishing. We already see often Apple in this sector. Linux is slowly but steadily growing and Windows is at the same time struggling with its W10 as there are little to none reasons for upgrading from W7. If you watch the near future in wider than games perspective, it's hard to find any logical paths which would lead growing windows share or even staying the same. World is changing, os relevance is decreasing and unluckily for Microsoft it's not their way. That's why they are desperately investing to all other areas now: Azure, Office 365, competition with Steam, merging Xbox and Windows as they still have the advantage with DX. However, if they don't open their operating model a lot, they're eventually going to lose this game. This has been the overall trend in business computing for a some while and the same is happening in end-user segment.
2. Time is now different. OpenGL is matured and globally used in variety of platforms. Vulkan is mentioned already in nearly every place where there are discussion about dx12 and future games.
3. I wouldn't be that black-white with the assumptions of Nintendo ecosystem. Remember that Nintendo has already expanded to mobile platform which also has the "compressed assets". Point is that Nintendo has made truckloads of money with their two mobile games hence underlining the fact that mobile gaming market is very noteworthy player. Switch also nicely pinpoints the idea that you can have mobile and console in the same packet. Sony had something that you could play PS4 games on your phone, the newest S8 can also be used computerwise and most likely more to come. In here you need to have an open API, not some MS driven proprietary solution.
4. This is also changing. Of course there are differences with the user interface (no mouse, keyboard etc), but not all graphics, logic, physics, audio etc. need to be different anymore. It's pretty amazing what the current high-end mobile devices can bring to the table. As you said "most amount of sales with the least amount development time" means that there are urge for common interfaces, languages, tools, APIs in this sector. In this view, which is the actual need on the market, MS dx12 is just a nuisance, Xbox is only place where you're forced to use it. DX will always be MS ecosystem product and MS will never own the whole gaming sector. There is real need for Vulkan type of open, efficient, multiplatform solution.

The major point here is that gaming used to be windows related stuff, but not anymore. There is now way more platforms to support, you cannot ignore any of the big ones but at the same time you have limited amount of money to do the ports. Nintendo Switch, PS4 mobile gaming, Nvidia online gaming, VR solutions, mobile, SteamOS are all here mixing the pot. Vulkan is only one step to have some glue between all these. Everybody knows that MS has their own agenda with dx12, that is simply to keep things in their hands which is not what markets really want.

About owning consoles, I have had all Xboxes so far, but it's still only a console despite all the new features MS have tried to bundle in it. Nowadays it's in very small use, I even use my Wii more with children than Xbox. If I want to play something by myself, I choose PC because I know that I have and will always have better graphics and user interface (mouse+keyboard) there. Also buying games from Steam sales saves a lot of money. All my "console race" friends tend to have PS4 to which they seem to be pretty satisfied. Vast majority of households chose one of the consoles, not two or three. PS4 pro was announced little while ago, VR after that + PS4 has been leading the console war right from the beginning means that people have lots of PS4 games on their libraries. It's really just not the performance which leads to the purchase decision, remember Wii, Microsoft's strict used game politics which was the real reason why Xone lost the battle at the very beginning? Also have to mention that even there are all kind of consoles/playing platforms available, my children and all their friends are using majority of their gaming time with mobile games (clash of clans, pokemon etc). They are the future anyways and maybe that's what Nintendo is thinking with their crossover Switch. Lastly if Scorpio will be way faster than PS4 we can be pretty sure that Sony has a new version waiting around the corner.
 
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Agent-47

Senior member
Jan 17, 2017
290
249
76
A Fury X shouldn't even be in the same neighborhood as a Titan XP. Yet here it is :


nVidia's driver must not run well on Ryzen for some reason.
wait a minutes. if there was a CPU bottleneck, they should perform the same dispite having a different GPU from different performance segments.

from what I understand, AotS CPU and GPU/ME:MS are within the margin of error. DAI and GTA V shows Fury is a bottleneck. and only RotTR shows that AMD Fury X has a better optimization.

I donot think it proves anything
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,805
11,159
136
It shows that all reviewers using a high end Nvidia card for the Ryzen reviews aren't necessarily painting an accurate picture of Ryzen performance.

There was a poster somewhere on this forum - possibly in this monstrous thread - that wished ardently for AMD GPUs to gain some special operating capabilities while running in Ryzen systems. Perhaps he has gotten wish . . . sort of.
 

Malogeek

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2017
1,390
778
136
yaktribe.org
There was a poster somewhere on this forum - possibly in this monstrous thread - that wished ardently for AMD GPUs to gain some special operating capabilities while running in Ryzen systems. Perhaps he has gotten wish . . . sort of.
It's entirely possible given what we're seeing. AMD obviously has had access to Ryzen for quite some time and could have been doing optimizations for Ryzen systems in their drivers whereas Nvidia has been heavily tuning their drivers around Intel for years, given that's been the primary CPU for gamers for years.
 
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imported_jjj

Senior member
Feb 14, 2009
660
430
136
It's entirely possible given what we're seeing. AMD obviously has had access to Ryzen for quite some time and could have been doing optimizations for Ryzen systems in their drivers whereas Nvidia has been heavily tuning their drivers around Intel for years, given that's been the primary CPU for gamers for years.

It's not about Ryzen, it's the number of cores..The 6900k has similar issues.
That's the entire point here, number of cores scaling under DX12 with Nvidia.
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...and-discussion.2499879/page-215#post-38823668

DX11 to DX12 scaling is well documented for both AMD and Nvidia but with 4 cores CPUs mostly and folks haven't looked at scaling with 4 cores vs 6 and 8.
Some noticed the poor scaling with Nvidia for Ryzen and the 6900k but only now we are starting to see tests with AMD GPUs.
 

imported_jjj

Senior member
Feb 14, 2009
660
430
136
A slightly older video with a 6 cores 6800k, RX 480 vs GTX 1060, DX11 vs DX12
Ofc the differences are muted with mid range cards at 1080p but it's still visible.
 
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james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
There is one idea that I have not seen discussed. What if Nvidia fixes their DX 12 driver to get a similar boost on Ryzen as the AMD GPU's. That would mean total defeat on Intel's part for now. Even if Intel would bring out the next generation, with a real 15% increase across the board, that still would not catch Ryzen.
 

bakyt115

Member
Nov 21, 2016
84
153
106
can someone test
is zens Neural Net Prediction and Smart Prefetch gives notifiable performance boost or not
 
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