* * * OFFICIAL * * * Bush / Kerry Debate . . .

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Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Have they had any interviews with some of the people in the audience, including the folks asking the questions?
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
ntzd:

Actually, Conjur reported that one of the conservative groups may have found another way to do it, but it is obvious that it was done either with a repeating script of some sort or a bot or manually or a combination of all of those and possibly more. Do you really think 800K people would vote for Bush on CNN when the previous high was about half that? If these were Kerry's numbers I'd be certain they were manufactured.

I looked for Fox's poll, but they don't seem to have it up. Their numbers were significantly lower, though they had Bush winning the debate with something like 53% of the vote.

-Robert
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: chess9
ntzd:

Actually, Conjur reported that one of the conservative groups may have found another way to do it, but it is obvious that it was done either with a repeating script of some sort or a bot or manually or a combination of all of those and possibly more. Do you really think 800K people would vote for Bush on CNN when the previous high was about half that? If these were Kerry's numbers I'd be certain they were manufactured.

I looked for Fox's poll, but they don't seem to have it up. Their numbers were significantly lower, though they had Bush winning the debate with something like 53% of the vote.

-Robert

foxnews.com had 500,000 voters while cnn had 1.4 million
 

KenSr

Golden Member
Sep 21, 2003
1,441
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Bottom line for me is this....

Bush did a nice job of slowing down the bleeding that his campaign was suffering. Kerry needs to change his tactic in the next debate. He needs to stop saying "I have a plan...." and pimping his JohnKerry.com website. He needs to go into a bit more specifics and needs to put Bush BACK on the defensive like in the first debate. Otherwise, momentum will swing back to the President.

Maybe Kerry is waiting untill the last minute to come up with more, that way Bush's spin doctors won't have time time to come up with much.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: chess9
ntzd:

Actually, Conjur reported that one of the conservative groups may have found another way to do it, but it is obvious that it was done either with a repeating script of some sort or a bot or manually or a combination of all of those and possibly more. Do you really think 800K people would vote for Bush on CNN when the previous high was about half that? If these were Kerry's numbers I'd be certain they were manufactured.

I looked for Fox's poll, but they don't seem to have it up. Their numbers were significantly lower, though they had Bush winning the debate with something like 53% of the vote.

-Robert

foxnews.com had 500,000 voters while cnn had 1.4 million

Who the fvck cares? Online polls are worthless. This is proof.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
The extra emphasis on the poll numbers and any efforts to sway them towards one person winning is a symptom of what the debates are.

The debates are a way to get the faithful going and to set a tenor across the message the party is putting out.

Kerry "won" the first debate - that gave heart to many of his supporters who were starting to give up. They were losing heart because the results of the polls after the Republican convention were used to push the message that Bush was going to win.

To a certain extent, it isn't who does better in whatever debate - it is what message gets out to the public afterwards.

Michael
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Michael
The extra emphasis on the poll numbers and any efforts to sway them towards one person winning is a symptom of what the debates are.

The debates are a way to get the faithful going and to set a tenor across the message the party is putting out.

Kerry "won" the first debate - that gave heart to many of his supporters who were starting to give up. They were losing heart because the results of the polls after the Republican convention were used to push the message that Bush was going to win.

To a certain extent, it isn't who does better in whatever debate - it is what message gets out to the public afterwards.

Michael
Yes michael, and Bush's message was that Kerry is a pvssy, and Kerry's message was that he was offended that Bush called him a pvssy.

 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
that flash animation has the be the most boring thing I've ever watched, not to mention they couldn't even get a photo of him looking angry. Pathetic attempt at making nothing into something. But isn't that what liberals do with everything?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Oh, it's not nothing.

Furious George is your candidate for President. He revealed his true character the other night when he stormed off of his chair and rudely interrupted Gibson (who keeled over like a log).
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
frankly, i didnt have a problem with that, he showed his authority and strength as a leader....
 

jjzelinski

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2004
3,750
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
frankly, i didnt have a problem with that, he showed his authority and strength as a leader....

You mean total irreverence and recklessness?
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
ntdz:

Yes, and Fox News has more viewers than CNN. So, which site was hacked, if any?

Please, why are you being so annoyingly dense?


Conjur:

Generally, I agree. But the perception that Bush lost the debate does have value and Rove knows it.
We know better, but the average guy on the street who is working 70 hours a week doesn't. Talk radio will repeat those numbers like they came from God.

Also, I looked at the full report of Fox's poll. (They give you a link to it.) If you are interested in knowing how they get skewed numbers you only need to look at the design of the poll. Their poll, once adjusted for the number of Republicans and obviously right-wing "independents" shows a tie or a Kerry win. That isn't an online poll either, but one in which they called people at their listed phone numbers. (yet another bit of bias in the method)

-Robert
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
frankly, i didnt have a problem with that, he showed his authority and strength as a leader....

That is one of the many problems with this administration. They think they are above the rules.


---------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Ldir
Originally posted by: ntdz
frankly, i didnt have a problem with that, he showed his authority and strength as a leader....

That is one of the many problems with this administration. They think they are above the rules.


---------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980

It showed me how much of a spoiled little boy he was.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: Ldir
Originally posted by: ntdz
frankly, i didnt have a problem with that, he showed his authority and strength as a leader....

That is one of the many problems with any administration. They think they are above the rules.

fixed
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Was the President signalling to hard-core anti-choice voters that he would have a limitus test for abortion?
Why GWB Opposes Dred Scott

I didn't understand where GWB was pulling Dred Scott from in answer to appointing judges to the SCOTUS - perhaps, it was because the suit was filed in Missouri.
But this article to me shows that GWB is signalling to his hardcore base that he will appoint judges to overturn Roe v. Wade. Yet, GWB doesn't have the balls to say directly so he is talking in code.
Go ahead and google Dred Scott and abortion or Dred Scott Roe v Wade.
 

klah

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2002
7,070
1
0
Libertarians Win a Hearing in Debate Case

October 11, 2004

The third and final debate between President Bush and Senator Kerry has been thrown into doubt after a state judge in Arizona ordered a hearing on whether the event, scheduled for Wednesday, should be halted because the Libertarian Party's nominee for president has not been invited.

Judge F. Pendleton Gaines III instructed the debate's hosts, Arizona State University and the Commission on Presidential Debates, to appear in his courtroom in Phoenix tomorrow to respond to a lawsuit filed last week by the Libertarians.
...
The suit argues that the university is illegally donating state resources to the Republican and Democratic Parties by serving as host for a debate that showcases Messrs. Bush and Kerry but excludes their Libertarian counterpart, Michael Badnarik, who is on the ballot in Arizona and 47 other states.

"They can't have debates that make public expenditures for private benefit," Mr. Euchner said. "A.S.U. is spending its money in violation of the state constitution."


edit: more here http://www.emediawire.com/rele.../2004/10/emw166740.htm

...
"The media refers to this event as a ?debate,?" says Stephen Gordon, Badnarik's communications director. "But there are three candidates on the ballot in Arizona, and the University, in collusion with an allegedly non-partisan, allegedly non-profit organization, is spending about $2 million to publicize the views of only two of them."

Arizona Libertarians filed suit to stop the event on October 1, claiming that the state Constitution prohibits donations of taxpayer money to corporations like the Commission on Presidential debates. "If all of the candidates were invited, it might be portrayed as an educational program," says David Euchner, the Tucson attorney pressing the Libertarians' case. "When legitimate candidates whose names will appear on the Arizona ballot are excluded, the only word for it is 'campaign commercial.'"
...
A hearing has been scheduled for 9 a.m. on Tuesday in the Superior Court of Maricopa County.

Case Number CV2004-019089 is scheduled to be heard at 9:00AM, October 12, 2004 in Room 814 of the East Court Building of the Maricopa County (Arizona) Superior Court. The hearing is scheduled to be no longer than one hour, with one half hour allotted for each side to make their arguments.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Just finished reading this (was in Sunday's paper but I hadn't read all of it yet)

Why Did James Baker Turn Bush Into Nixon?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10...10rich.html?oref=login
WE'VE never seen anything like this, even the old Kennedy-Nixon classic great debate," said a breathless Chris Matthews on the "Today" show as he touted a poll showing that John Kerry had won presidential debate No. 1 by as much as a 4-to-1 margin. But actually we have seen something like this - and at that first Kennedy-Nixon debate. The polls may have gyrated more violently this time around, but the scenario is identical: a campaign's seemingly mundane decision about television theatrics has potentially changed the dynamic of a presidential election.

Only Election Day will reveal if Sept. 30, 2004, set off a political chain reaction to match that of Sept. 26, 1960; then as now the candidates soon settled down into a post-debate statistical dead heat in the horse race (Kennedy 49, Nixon 46, according to Gallup). But at the very least the first Bush-Kerry debate marked the moment that the savvy Bush-Cheney machine lost its once-invincible grip on the all-important TV game and, just like Nixon before it, did so because of its own blunders, not any sorcery by the opposing J. F. K.

As Mr. Matthews recounts the historical antecedent in his 1996 book, "Kennedy and Nixon," the debate director, Don Hewitt, offered the haggard Nixon makeup to help bridge the video gap with his tan and fit opponent, the junior Democratic senator from Massachusetts. Not only did Nixon decline but this decision was seconded by his campaign media adviser, Ted Rogers. The world remembers the rest. The only cosmetic aid that Nixon used - an over-the-counter product called Lazy Shave to mask his stubble - melted in sweat, casting an incumbent vice president in a lesser light than his lesser known challenger.

In the 2004 replay the Ted Rogers of the story is, of all people, James A. Baker III, the Bush family consigliere who so cannily gamed the 2000 count in Florida, outsmarting the Gore forces at every turn. This may be the year he lost his fast ball, unless you take the Freudian view that he has an unconscious wish to prevent 43 from bettering the re-election record of his original patron, 41. Either way, the thoroughness with which Mr. Baker's offstage maneuvers set his guy up for disaster on Sept. 30 may tell us more about the state of play in the campaign than the much-dissected style and substance of the debaters' onstage performance.

It was Mr. Baker's job to negotiate the 32-page debate agreement with Vernon Jordan, representing the Kerry camp, and by all accounts, the Bush campaign got almost everything it wanted. Yet as we now know, every Bush stipulation backfired, from the identically sized podiums that made the 5-foot-11 president look as if he needed a booster stool, to the flashing "Time's up!" lights that emphasized Mr. Kerry's uncharacteristic brevity and Mr. Bush's need to run out the clock by repeating stock phrases ad infinitum and ad absurdum.

The most revealing Baker error, though, was to insist that the first debate be about the president's purported strong suit, foreign affairs, instead of domestic policy. Did no one anticipate the likelihood that Iraq might once again explode that day, as it has on so many recent others? Insurgent attacks have gone from a daily average of 6 in May 2003 to as high as 87 in August. And so, as Adam Nagourney of The Times reported, "In the hours leading up to the debate, television images of aides to Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry were mixed with images of corpses and bloody children from Baghdad," on a day when some 35 Iraqi children were slaughtered by car bombs. With this montage grinding away in the media mix, Mr. Kerry probably could have gotten away with even more inconsistent positions about the war than he did that night.

Mr. Baker isn't responsible for the other split-screen visuals that undid Mr. Bush on Sept. 30: the reaction shots during the debate itself. They were forbidden by the 32-page agreement. But earlier that week, the networks, including Fox News, publicly announced they would violate that rule. The Bush campaign has since said that the president knew this was coming, but if so, that makes his lack of self-discipline seem all the more self-destructive, or perhaps out of touch. He couldn't have provided a better out-take promo for the DVD release of "Fahrenheit 9/11" had Michael Moore been directing it himself.

Mr. Bush could recoup by Nov. 2 for all manner of reasons, including his showing in the subsequent debates, both yet to come as I write. John F. Kerry is no John F. Kennedy. But the liberal blog Daily Kos had the big picture right: on Sept. 30, "months of meticulous image manipulation" by the Bush-Cheney forces went "down the toilet in 90 minutes."

That's a shocking development because until recently, that manipulation had been meticulous and then some. The administration has been brilliant at concocting camera-ready video narratives that flatter if not outright fictionalize its actions: "Saving Jessica Lynch," "Shock and Awe," the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue (a sparsely populated, unspontaneous event, when seen in the documentary "Control Room"), "Mission Accomplished." Mr. Bush has been posed by his imagineers to appear to be the fifth head on Mount Rushmore; he has kept the coffins of the American war dead off-screen; he has been seen in shirtsleeves at faux-folksy Town Hall meetings that, until his second debate with Mr. Kerry, were so firmly policed in content and attendees that they would make a Skull and Bones soiree look like a paragon of democracy in action. Time reported last spring that even the Department of Homeland Security was told to take a break from its appointed tasks to round up one terrorism-fighting photo op a month for the president.

To enforce the triumphalist narrative of these cinematic efforts, the Bush team had to cut out any skeptical press, or, as Mr. Bush once put it, "go over the heads of the filter and speak directly to the people" (as long as they're pre-selected). This didn't just mean avoiding press conferences and blackballing reporters from campaign planes. It also required an active program to demonize "the elite media" while feeding Fox News and its talk-radio and on-line amen chorus at every opportunity. "I end up spending a lot of time watching Fox News, because they're more accurate in my experience" is how Dick Cheney put it earlier this year. Thus the first Bush-Kerry debate was preceded by a three-installment interview with the president by Fox's Bill O'Reilly, whose idea of hard-hitting journalism is encapsulated in his boast that his was "the only national TV news program" to shield its viewers from pictures of Abu Ghraib. The highlight of his pre-debate Bush marathon was his expression of admiration for the president's guts in taking questions not submitted to him in advance. This is a "free press" in the same spirit as that championed by such Bush pals as Silvio Berlusconi, Crown Prince Abdullah, Pervez Musharraf, Ayad Allawi and, of course, dear old "Vladimir."

But those who live by Fox News can die by Fox News. If you limit your diet to Fox and its talk-radio and blogging satellites, you may think that the only pressing non-Laci Peterson, non-Kobe, non-hurricane stories are "Rathergate" and the antics of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Your diet of bad news from Iraq is restricted, and Abu Ghraib becomes an over-the-top frat hazing. You are certain that John Kerry can't score in the debates because everyone knows he's an overtanned, overmanicured metrosexual. You reside in such an isolated echo chamber that you aren't aware that even the third-rated network news broadcast, that anchored by the boogeyman Dan Rather, draws 50 percent more viewers on a bad night than "The O'Reilly Factor" does on a great one (the Bush interview).

Eventually you become a prisoner of your own fiction and lose touch with reality. You start making the mistakes Mr. Baker made - and more. The whole Bush-Cheney operation is less sure-footed about media manipulation than it once was. You could see this the week before the debate, when the president rolled out Mr. Allawi for a series of staged Washington appearances that were even less effective than his predecessor Ahmad Chalabi's State of the Union photo op with Laura Bush. No one at the White House seemed to realize that if you want to keep a puppet from being ridiculed as a puppet you don't put him on camera to deliver sound bites (some 16, by the calculation of Dana Milbank of The Washington Post) that are paraphrases of the president's much replayed golden oldies. The whole long charade played out like a lost reel of "Duck Soup."

The Bush-Cheney campaign can console itself with the hope that the embarrassing first debate images will be superseded by debates No. 2 and No. 3. (Nixon aced the third of his four matchups with Kennedy.) But it can't suppress the pictures from an ongoing war that only Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney and Mr. Allawi believe is getting better by the day. It was back in March that the discrepancy between the White House's narrative and the reality on the ground was first captured in dramatic split screen: as Dick Cheney delivered a speech at the Reagan presidential library bashing Mr. Kerry and boasting of our progress in Iraq, his sour certitude was paired with an especially lethal car bombing in central Baghdad. These days the bombings are more frequent and often more lethal, and such tragic juxtapositions are the rule rather than the exception.

If anything, the first Bush-Kerry confrontation has given split-screen television a new vogue. Having defied the efforts of both campaigns to squelch its use on Sept. 30, emboldened TV news organizations can run with it at will. So we saw on the Sunday after that debate, when Condoleezza Rice appeared on ABC's "This Week."

There she was quizzed about the report in that morning's Times saying that in 2002 she had hyped aluminum tubes as evidence of Saddam's nuclear threat a year after her staff was told that government experts had serious doubts. Ms. Rice kept trying to talk over the soft-voiced George Stephanopoulos's questions, but he zapped her with a picture: a September 2002 CNN interview in which she had not, shall we say, told the whole truth and nothing but. As the old video played, ABC used a split screen so we could watch Ms. Rice, "This Is Your Life" style, as she watched the replay of her incriminating appearance of two years earlier. Maybe, like Mr. Bush at the first debate, she knew her reaction was being caught on camera. But even if she did, the unchecked rage in her face, like that of her boss three days earlier, revealed that her image and her story, like the war itself, had spun completely out of her control.

Seems like they keep tripping over their own words and setting themselves up for falls. It's like the Machiavellian Keystone Cops! I'd laugh but the trouble is that attitude is what got us into the war on Iraq which has, imo, been the most divisive event in America since the Vietnam war.
 

tooltime

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2003
1,029
0
0
the first one was real 'steril' compared to what i was expecting...the second one i heard was hotter and this one should be more of a hot debate
 
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