**OFFICIAL** Diablo 3 Thread

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RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
I love all this rationalization of less is somehow more. It's not just stop trying to say it is.

Given that Diablo 3's core game mechanics are different, there's no point in having customizable stats. Each class only has two stats that matter, their damage improving stat and vitality which improves health. Why bother manually assigning skill points? You might as well just get a slider at that point because the outcome will always be some division between those two stats.
I guess you never liked having to choose more life or max shield block? Some builts wanted different ways to survive. And that slider bar is exactly (at the bare minimum of) what's missing. Before you could build a glass cannon with no HP and all into the damage stat, or you could built a "safer" character with tons of HP and a lot less damage.
 
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slayer202

Lifer
Nov 27, 2005
13,682
119
106
It definitely hurts replayability since everything is gear based and you only need one of each character. No more need to MF as much, you don't need to find specific gear for multiple characters, just equip your 5 classes and you're done. No need to go switch to your cold sorc with a different setup.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
It definitely hurts replayability since everything is gear based and you only need one of each character. No more need to MF as much, you don't need to find specific gear for multiple characters, just equip your 5 classes and you're done. No need to go switch to your cold sorc with a different setup.

I used a memory editor in Diablo 2 for redistributing skill points.
Fuck making 3 separate guys for each class.
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
After playing the beta for the weekend, I feel D3 lost some of the luster compare to D2.

1. the items don't give an immediate boost that could be visible. Like life leech in D2 was immediately felt, but I cannot feel the power of the new rare items I put on the char. Making it less addictive to get new items.

2. auto dist attributes may seem to streamline things but I personally want to put the points in even if it's the wrong place, I like to experiment w/ different attributes etc. It's part of the fun.

3. too linear, all the q. are in complete linear order. kind of boring that way.

4. no game titles, used to be you can create trade games etc. or just chat games. now you cannot do that any more. Is there a lounge area that we can just chill out and chat? do some trading etc?


5. another problem is D3 feels less coorp v D2. W/ D2 paladin aura and barb warcry affect the group in much more meaningful ways. Here a few spells seems to effect others in a local basis but that's it. Just feel not many skills are for group setting. for me, it's a letdown.

--------

some things I like:
1. everyone gets something after a drop.
2. when one guy picks up health ball, everyone gets it.
3. teleport to others loc from town.
4. boss difficulty is about right, D2 made boss too easy.

But overall, I have to say I am dissapointed w/ this one. already preordered it thinking if I should cancel or not.
 
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Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
There's still plenty of math involved, it's now just much more complicated. There's obviously going to be some build that does the maximum amount of damage. Finding what that build is is way more fun math problem than anything in Diablo 2. There the synergies were plainly labeled and the calculations weren't terribly complex. Diablo 3 is going to be about skill rotations, resource management, and other complicated factors that make finding those builds difficult. Even then it's likely that some will come down to three or four key skills and leave several additional skills that come down to customization.

And just how is the math going to be more complicated when all you do is select a box for a skill? You can't build your stats, which effected how well skills worked in D2. I don't see me needing to use an Excel spreadsheet to determine what the best combination is for a given build when there are literally no specs that are user changeable. Items can give you some yes, but thats nothing complicated to work out in your head.

Did you even play Diablo 2 on an advanced level? Because as far as I can tell, you didn't. Because you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. In Diablo 2 you could adjust everything. In Diablo 3 you just click on a box, and every so many levels you unlock a "rune" which just gives an added ability. Zero customization.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,024
6,480
136
I love all this rationalization of less is somehow more. It's not just stop trying to say it is.

It's less of some utterly meaningless adjustments. The only skills you put points into in D2 were for maxing for use or synergies or pre-requirements. This just removes the hassle of clicking a button 20 times instead of 1. Pretending that customization existed in areas where it really didn't is disingenuous.

Also, the amount gained through the changes makes up for what's been lost. I can already tell that Diablo 3 will be a much deeper game in the parts that actually matter: the gameplay and combat mechanics. If I want to get a mental hard on from slightly tweaking generally arbitrary values I'll go play with an Excel spreadsheet.

Really my only complaint would be that I can't unlock runes in any order that prefer. Perhaps that's done for balance reasons, but the way that Diablo 3 has been designed affords so much more actual flexibility that I don't care if I can't manually control where my attribute points go.

I guess you never liked having to choose more life or max shield block? Some builts wanted different ways to survive. And that slider bar is exactly (at the bare minimum of) what's missing. Before you could build a glass cannon with no HP and all into the damage stat, or you could built a "safer" character with tons of HP and a lot less damage.

Is it really a choice? I can guarantee that one of them is mathematically demonstrable as superior. I suppose you could argue that you want the ability to limit yourself, but that's still possible in Diablo 3. The only real difference is that you have less rope to hang yourself with.

If you still want to trade between glass cannon or a safe build, I'm certain that gear will exist to cater to both play styles. The only difference is that the extremes may not be quite as far apart, which probably makes for much better game balance.

It definitely hurts replayability since everything is gear based and you only need one of each character. No more need to MF as much, you don't need to find specific gear for multiple characters, just equip your 5 classes and you're done. No need to go switch to your cold sorc with a different setup.

No one is stopping you from sticking with one build per character.

Also, the lack of need to MF argument doesn't follow. If there's different gear for an arcane Wizard as opposed to a frost Wizard it doesn't change anything. At best you can change your spec and have less than ideal gear.

It was the same in Diablo 2 after they added respecs. It didn't suddenly allow my cold sorceress to change over to lightning and be perfectly effective. What leads you to believe that it is somehow different in Diablo 3?

After playing the beta for the weekend, I feel D3 lost some of the luster compare to D2.

. . .

5. another problem is D3 feels less coorp v D2. W/ D2 paladin aura and barb warcry affect the group in much more meaningful ways. Here a few spells seems to effect others in a local basis but that's it. Just feel not many skills are for group setting. for me, it's a letdown.

After playing as part of group compared to playing solo, groups in and of themselves already felt immensely more powerful. Between 4 classes, there are already enough abilities to keep a group of monsters permanently disabled. Adding even more synergy for damage, of which there is already plenty (although usually at later levels), would probably make balance even more difficult.
 

Hubb1e

Senior member
Aug 25, 2011
396
0
71
I really enjoyed my time playing Diablo and I preordered the game. making all the skills scale with weapon damage keeps all the skills viable through the whole game, so you can customize them all you want. Player attributes in D2 were dumb and I don't miss them as it required me to play through a whole character to try out a new build. I'm hoping D3 will have much more content to play through, and expansions will keep the end game interesting for high level players.

The only thing I found odd was that my spell damage was impacted by equipping a plain superior Axe as my weapon of choice because it did the most damage, though I never swung it in anger once. I'm not sure yet why a WD is running around with an Axe in hand but I'm guessing that as you level the weapons that will best improve intelligence will be things like wands, staffs, and daggers.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
It's obvious you've pre-ordered it and will defend this game to the death. You like simple things, I got it. The fact you took my max damage character and more HP choice to simplified it to one has a "better" play style exemplifies the type of gamer they are catering to.

You never once addressed any of the points I made. You could make a lot of non min/max builds in D2, play through hell difficulty and play in some odd ways and still enjoy AND beat the game. So saying they were useless or off the wall is not a correct assestment. Also, by saying well you couldn't respec at the start of the game and then dismissing the fact it was added later as you CAN'T respec is also false. The later patches added a lot of life to the game and corrected a lot of tiresome game features, i.e. stat and skill respec's.

Your agruement boils down to, there's less customization and thats now some how better. Most of the people I know that really enjoyed D1 & D2 don't think thats a good thing.

It's one thing to have someone tell you, this is the best way to make/build X character, its another one entirely when that choice is removed. And for some reason you LIKE not having the choice.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,024
6,480
136
It's obvious you've pre-ordered it and will defend this game to the death. You like simple things, I got it. The fact you took my max damage character and more HP choice to simplified it to one has a "better" play style exemplifies the type of gamer they are catering to.

Nope, I haven't pre-ordered it, but I probably will buy it when it comes out if I build a new gaming rig since I really can't run it at the settings I'd want with decent frame rates.


You never once addressed any of the points I made. You could make a lot of non min/max builds in D2, play through hell difficulty and play in some odd ways and still enjoy AND beat the game. So saying they were useless or off the wall is not a correct assestment.

You can still make those in Diablo 3, so I don't see how any points about their being less variety or customization is valid. Just because character customization isn't the same as Diablo 2 doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Also, by saying well you couldn't respec at the start of the game and then dismissing the fact it was added later as you CAN'T respec is also false. The later patches added a lot of life to the game and corrected a lot of tiresome game features, i.e. stat and skill respec's.

The inability to respec was just bad game design that made it cumbersome to try different builds easily, especially if you didn't play on ladder. If you had enough friends or didn't mind trying to get rushed it wasn't a huge time commitment, but it was still annoying. Really that just goes to show that the game deign of Diablo 2 was not infallible so to assume that just because that because Diablo 2 did something a certain way it's good or better than something else is silly.

Your agruement boils down to, there's less customization and thats now some how better. Most of the people I know that really enjoyed D1 & D2 don't think thats a good thing.

There isn't less. There's more, but it's different. Somehow you think that just because you can no longer adjust attributes that there's less customization. I suppose you're correct in that there's less of an ability to customize your attributes, but given that it's been replaced by better systems.

You're focusing on the removal of a really poor customization system (as I said, it can be reduced to a slider) that was permanent, rather than looking at all of the ways that Blizzard has designed a system that allows for deeper, more varied gameplay.

It's one thing to have someone tell you, this is the best way to make/build X character, its another one entirely when that choice is removed. And for some reason you LIKE not having the choice.

I'm saying that removing what was always just a hollow choice allows for more meaningful choices to take their place. I like that because the choices can actually matter. My guess is that these systems also make for better game balance and more enjoyable gameplay.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
You can still make those in Diablo 3, so I don't see how any points about their being less variety or customization is valid. Just because character customization isn't the same as Diablo 2 doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You just don't get it.

PLEASE answer this, as you keep skipping around it...

HOW can characters in D3 be just as customizable as they are in D2 when you CANNOT make any adjustments to their base stats? You can adjust strength, vitality, dexterity, etc. Its not possible. This is extremely limiting.

And another thing that annoys me about the game. How on earth do you see how much damage a given ability does? Yes it shows DMG when you hit 'i' to see your specs. But that is weapon DMG. And yes spells and such are based on weapon damage (which is absurd in itself, you need to have a wizard with a huge battle axe to get good SPELL DMG). But I see nowhere to see spell/ability damage. Say you unlock a rune for a given spell on a wizard, it just says "more damage". But it doesn't say how much. Hell you can't even see how much health a given monster has. So how are you supposed to figure out what is the best combo without any of the required information?!
 

Blueoak

Senior member
Dec 13, 2001
372
0
0
And another thing that annoys me about the game. How on earth do you see how much damage a given ability does? Yes it shows DMG when you hit 'i' to see your specs. But that is weapon DMG. And yes spells and such are based on weapon damage (which is absurd in itself, you need to have a wizard with a huge battle axe to get good SPELL DMG). But I see nowhere to see spell/ability damage. Say you unlock a rune for a given spell on a wizard, it just says "more damage". But it doesn't say how much. Hell you can't even see how much health a given monster has. So how are you supposed to figure out what is the best combo without any of the required information?!


Need to enable advanced tooltips in options to see the damage percentages in the tooltip.
 

Blueoak

Senior member
Dec 13, 2001
372
0
0
You just don't get it.

PLEASE answer this, as you keep skipping around it...

HOW can characters in D3 be just as customizable as they are in D2 when you CANNOT make any adjustments to their base stats? You can adjust strength, vitality, dexterity, etc. Its not possible. This is extremely limiting.

Here's a thread about why stat points are gone:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
Here's a thread about why stat points are gone:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1

I had seen this article. And it has many valid points, and I understand why most of these changes were made. And I am not saying I want the stat system as D2 had it. But more of a fixed version of it. Like said there, energy was more or less worthless. But messing with STR, DEX, and VIT could make some big changes in your character.

But with all that I have said here, I am still looking forward to the game, and I think it will be fun. But I do really hope they add less muddy looking textures to the game. Rather than having to hack it with a 3rd party mod to make it look like it came from this decade.
 

JimKiler

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2002
3,559
205
106
I enjoy Diablo 3 but I have too many other games to play so i will wait for it to get cheap before I buy.

I do agree that the changes should make the configuration more about combat. In Diablo 2 I would wait to get an upgrade to my weapon or spell so then even though my spell was not suited for a particular enemy I would still use it since I was waiting and waiting to get that spell or upgrade a spell. And it sucked to have level 10 fire spell and then when you needed the Ice spell it was at level 2, so no wonder i never used more than one or two spells. But that is how I played.

I have one question, i D3 i created a monk and I had the initial fists of thunder. Then i got the deadly reach. When i added the rune stone to fists of thunder did that then mean deadly reach was not as powerful? In playing the game there are no stats for the skills. And I enjoyed deadly reach better than fists of thunder.
 

Gheris

Senior member
Oct 24, 2005
305
0
0
I think we really need to come to the realization that a more popular a game gets, the more user friendly it will become. I am not saying this is a bad thing overall, but it is bad for those that like to customize their characters. Personally I am not thrilled with the loss of the skill tree, however I am happy that I will not have to run mutiple characters to get different experiences for the same class. Instead I will need to get the loot that allows specialization. The loot for spec model is whole other can of worms though. We'll see how it pans out.

Regardless of all this I will probably pick up the game on release day.
 

MustangSVT

Lifer
Oct 7, 2000
11,554
12
81
so now the beta's over, is there anything I can do with it installed?
running demos or stress test or something? or should I just uninstall it?

it really made my videocard hot, hottest i've seen I think.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
so now the beta's over, is there anything I can do with it installed?
running demos or stress test or something? or should I just uninstall it?

it really made my videocard hot, hottest i've seen I think.

You know, I noticed my card get hot as well. Its the first time I have EVER heard the fans on it spin up. Even BF3 the fans sit at 20%.

As for what to do with it, no. You can uninstall it.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
I can't believe how stuck some people are on the stat points and modifying them. Give it a rest, it's not there, it's not coming back, end of story.

Blizzard wants customization through equipment.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
This is a great read.
It's a good read. I want to like the game, but the beta didn't do anything to change my mind. I spent tons of hours in D1 co-op and D2. D3 just doesn't seem to have the same "addiction" to it.
 

Nizology

Senior member
Oct 13, 2004
765
1
0
It's a good read. I want to like the game, but the beta didn't do anything to change my mind. I spent tons of hours in D1 co-op and D2. D3 just doesn't seem to have the same "addiction" to it.
You're comparing 1% of the game(beta) to its complete predecessors...not really a fair assessment if you ask me.
 

mcvickj

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2001
4,602
0
76
Maybe it is just me but my main gripe has been the map randomization. I played each class to the end of the beta and the map felt identical to me. Sure there were a few different mini dungeons each time I played but it felt like the main quest points were all in the same location. I thought everything was going to be random each time you played the game. Or was it just not enabled during the beta?
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
Maybe it is just me but my main gripe has been the map randomization.

Just like the original D2, some dungeons are randomized, other are not.

I do agree that the different "areas" of the map seem more blended together and thus difficult to distinguish. I must've played through 4-5 times this past weekend, but I still didn't remember clearly what are this or that dungeon was. It wasn't like D2 Act I, Blood Moor, Den of Evil.

The new TP system is really something to get used to. Before, it was a way to quickly get out of a tough fight. Now with the delay, you can't use it for that purpose.
 
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