**OFFICIAL** Diablo 3 Thread

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RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
You're comparing 1% of the game(beta) to its complete predecessors...not really a fair assessment if you ask me.
What else am I supposed to base it on? I've followed updated content on their webpage in addition to playing the beta? Should I apply for a job there and code for it as well?
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
I can't believe how stuck some people are on the stat points and modifying them. Give it a rest, it's not there, it's not coming back, end of story.

Blizzard wants customization through equipment.




Well no duh. Blizzard gets their nice little cut of every transaction that occurs so of course they want people buying and dealing as much of that all more important equipment now.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
What else am I supposed to base it on? I've followed updated content on their webpage in addition to playing the beta? Should I apply for a job there and code for it as well?

If you dislike the game that much, then quit b!tching about it and don't buy it - problem solved.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
Explain...?


You're in a forum.
You're right, gamers shouldn't express their opinions on games in a gaming forum. We should just sit back and just consume all media without any conversation.

(Also thanks for informing me we are on a forum, I was lost)
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
Pretty sure I wasn't talking to you.

It's a public forum - when you type something, it gets openly displayed to anybody who reads it. I find it hilarious that you spend hours bashing the game, attack other posters who dare to go against your negativity and post something positive they like about the game, and just go on and on endlessly about how much the game sucks and how much you dislike it.

Seriously if you dislike the game that much, quit polluting the thread and go find something else to entertain yourself with that you do enjoy. We get it - you don't like Diablo 3, and never will. You think anybody who likes the game is a fanboy, and anybody who counters your points is a "broken record" after you can't be bothered to defend your strawman arguments.

If anybody is a "broken record" in this thread, it's you, with your incessant whining like a child.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
It's a public forum - when you type something, it gets openly displayed to anybody who reads it. I find it hilarious that you spend hours bashing the game, attack other posters who dare to go against your negativity and post something positive they like about the game, and just go on and on endlessly about how much the game sucks and how much you dislike it.

Seriously if you dislike the game that much, quit polluting the thread and go find something else to entertain yourself with that you do enjoy. We get it - you don't like Diablo 3, and never will. You think anybody who likes the game is a fanboy, and anybody who counters your points is a "broken record" after you can't be bothered to defend your strawman arguments.

If anybody is a "broken record" in this thread, it's you, with your incessant whining like a child.
Hours bashing the game eh? Apparently you must type pretty slow, which I find "hilarious".

And I attacked other members by saying one was a broken record? Stating less isn't more is a straw man? Or by rectifying false claims as just that is some how attacking now?

Do yourself a favor, type faster so you don't spend "hours" replying to this post and stop making things up.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
So you can search google images faster than you type. GJ buddy. I guess you like books with lots of pictures vs. words. Noted.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
Going to try this out, see if its something I am going to pass or eventually buy.

As we see, it's not something you will buy. This was your queue to STFU and leave the thread. Since you have to have the absolute last word, similar to how a child argues, you continue.

Must say, I'm not impressed. ... Skill tree/stats totally dumbed downed. Here's your easy button... I know it's only normal, but it was mad easy. Never felt in the slightest (nor did my health ever get there) bit of danger. Did nothing to make me want to drop down any money for this game.

Ok so I'm getting a hint here - the game is too easy, and you won't buy. That was your chance to leave the thread without looking like a flaming retard. You're showing everybody your 1337 skillz, since you're so much cooler than everybody else and such a badass at playing beta games up to halfway through the first of 4 chapters on the easy setting.

I read that is, sorry you are too stupid to do it right or we are too lazy to think about it.

OK we get it - the developers are "too stupid to do it right", or simply too lazy. Blizzard won't get your money. At this point your gaying up the thread reached a new level, and was borderline trolling. Of course, we would later learn that wasn't enough to satisfy you - you had to drive the point home about how much the game sucked and how it was too easy, even though you played the easiest part of the easiest level on the easy difficulty.

Again, in the latest patches you could easily respec. Saying there is more customization in this game by making it less is being a fan boy and blind to the obvious.

Here we see the troll emerge. After someone wrote up a big explanation about why you were wrong, which showed the other people reading the thread that you really didn't know what you were talking about, you decided to lash out like a child would lash out when mommy didn't give the child everything he wanted. Instead of actually trying to debate Mopetar, you simply insulted him by calling him a fanboy in an attempt to dismiss his argument which was far more thorough and in depth than yours.

In debate lingo, that's known as a strawman argument. It's the most basic form of strawman. Basically someone posted something that showed you were wrong, and instead of admitting you were wrong and being a man about it, or even just silently leaving the thread, you went into a childish temper tantrum.

I love all this rationalizationof less is somehow more. It's not just stop trying to say it is.

So here once again everybody gets to see how your argument was defeated. Hoping for something intelligent, instead you posted this:
I guess you never liked having to choose more life or max shield block? Some builts wanted different ways to survive. And that slider bar is exactly (at the bare minimum of) what's missing. Before you could build a glass cannon with no HP and all into the damage stat, or you could built a "safer" character with tons of HP and a lot less damage.

Oh so now the big thing missing from the game is a slider bar that lets you make a glass cannon? Really? That's what all this was about - a slider bar? Let me guess - you think the Blizzard staff is stupid and lazy for not implementing this amazing "slider bar" that you've thought up. That's the first actual solution you attempted to put out, and to put it simply, it's utter rubbish. It's a garbage idea. It's something you would expect out of a web based flash game that you play for free.

It's obvious you've pre-ordered it and will defend this game to the death. You like simple things, I got it. The fact you took my max damage character and more HP choice to simplified it to one has a "better" play style exemplifies the type of gamer they are catering to.

Now you resort to simple insults yet again. Your idea of a "slider bar" looked so stupid to everybody else, that you feel insulted and begin to lash out like an out of control child.

Your agruement boils down to, there's less customization and thats now some how better. Most of the people I know that really enjoyed D1 & D2 don't think thats a good thing.

It's one thing to have someone tell you, this is the best way to make/build X character, its another one entirely when that choice is removed. And for some reason you LIKE not having the choice.

He just went through listing everything about how the series of choices in Diablo 3 are different, and here you go again - just because the developer didn't do it your way, everybody who disagrees with you is a good-fer-nuthin' fanboy. Your inner anger is rising at this point, as you're thinking to yourself "why don't they get it? Why don't they see this game is utter trash, like I do? WHYYYYY!!!!!" as tears stream down your face as you mash angrily at your keyboard.

The rest of the thread just continues in this fashion - you throw out random dumb ideas that people shoot down as irrelevant, so you insult them and try to show off how cool you are for beating such an easy game, while playing on the easiest setting of the easiest act in beta.

At this point you have simply shown what an embarassment you are to yourself. You should hold onto what little dignity you have left and retire from the thread. It's obvious you don't like the game, and no matter what you say or do, other people will like the game. It's not because they don't understand your points, it's that your points are meaningless. Not everybody gets joy out of min/maxing every game they get their hands on right off the bat.

Blizzard is trying to put the fun back in games for the more common game player, which obviously you are not since you're so "133t" and hardcore. That's their strategy, and if you don't like it, simply don't buy the game. Don't talk in a thread about the game. Don't look at the game when you see it on the store shelves when you pass by it. Give it up - the other players of Diablo 3 don't want you, they don't need you, and they won't care if you don't play. Leave the thread for people that have something of value to add.
 
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RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
But I'm mad right?

Also if you could read, the "slider bar" wasn't even my idea, I was using it as reference from another post.

Keep raging buddy.

Edit:
Just to keep it on topic, but I'm sure Juddog will find a way to rage off the handle again. A LOT of fans of the previous games, the people that supported the company also don't like how they've changed the custimzation, rightfully so. It was the same in the previous two games, that built thier current legacy and they are changing it. Right or wrong people that were fans previously probably aren't going to like the abrupt change. As another post noted it's all about making more money for them, they get a cut of all auction house transactions so why wouldn't they do this? Don't try to justify it as "it's easy now", easy means it's also simple. If there is more ways to make a character than before, then it can't be simple can it? You can't have it both ways. The change was made to make money, not to be simple.

If googling a character build is "hardcore" then man, I'm UBER.
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
But I'm mad right?

Also if you could read, the "slider bar" wasn't even my idea, I was using it as reference from another post.

Keep raging buddy.

Welcome to the ignore list - "buddy". You have shown, without a doubt, that nothing you say has any value or contributes anything to the thread. Congrats on winning the dunce cap for today.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,056
565
126
Welcome to the ignore list - "buddy". You have shown, without a doubt, that nothing you say has any value or contributes anything to the thread. Congrats on winning the dunce cap for today.
Ditto, next time I'll try to break out a picture book so you can keep up.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
OK guys, seriously, grown men know when to just stop.

Diablo 2 was great but now we need something new. I dont always care for the changes made to a franchise but rarely does the final product completely suck ass. And especially not with Blizzard.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,235
117
116
Please keep the discussion on topic and refrain from personal attacks or action will be taken. Thank you.

Anandtech Moderator
KeithTalent
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,024
6,480
136
You just don't get it.

PLEASE answer this, as you keep skipping around it...

HOW can characters in D3 be just as customizable as they are in D2 when you CANNOT make any adjustments to their base stats? You can adjust strength, vitality, dexterity, etc. Its not possible. This is extremely limiting.

Let's say you have a car and you can customize is by changing the paint colors of some of the different parts, but that most of the color combinations possible look like absolute crap so really almost everyone sticks with about four different arrangements that might have some slight variation.

Now imagine another car that doesn't let you change the colors at all, but lets you change the type of tires, adjust your gear ratios, and install different body kits if you want.

Would argue that the second card is somehow less customizable? There's more things to play around with to tweak the car and they generally lead to more meaningful results than any customization you do to the first car.

The parallel that I'm drawing here is that attribute allocation in Diablo 2 was essentially pointless. The first thing you did was determine how much strength you needed for the gear you wanted and put only that many points into strength. After that you could determine if you wanted max shield block or not (most builds don't) and put only that many points into dexterity. After that everything went into Vitality unless you used the one build that put points into Energy. That whole system could be reduced to a set of boxes to click. You can argue that you still want to have the choice to make some horrible mix of attributes, but unless the system is well balance it just leads to broken game design.

With Diablo 3's system the only customization would be a slider between Vitality and whichever attribute controls damage for that class, making it even more pointless to include such a system in favor of other changes that allow you to customize characters.

With Diablo 3 you get 6 skills that always scale with you, meaning that they're always useful. You also get to choose among five different runes for each of those skills, or none at all if you prefer. Not all of those skills are necessarily active either. For example, there are several Wizard skills that can be chosen more for their passive benefits (e.g. more damage or higher critical hit chance) rather than those which will actually be used. Furthermore, you also get 3 passive skills that can be used to further customize your character in multiple different directions. Considering that gems are still in the game, you're still able to customize your stats to a certain degree, and I imagine that a variety of different gear will exist that allows you to accomplish the same thing.

And another thing that annoys me about the game. How on earth do you see how much damage a given ability does? Yes it shows DMG when you hit 'i' to see your specs. But that is weapon DMG. And yes spells and such are based on weapon damage (which is absurd in itself, you need to have a wizard with a huge battle axe to get good SPELL DMG). But I see nowhere to see spell/ability damage. Say you unlock a rune for a given spell on a wizard, it just says "more damage". But it doesn't say how much. Hell you can't even see how much health a given monster has. So how are you supposed to figure out what is the best combo without any of the required information?!

I was looking for this too. Also, I think the damage that it lists isn't even damage, but is actually DPS. Also, they changed everything to scale based on weapon damage a while ago after it was obvious that it made balance easier and then they didn't need to constantly be adjusting the damage of different skills at each level.

Presumably, the easiest way to figure it out would be to look at your min/max weapon damage, multiply that by the amount of damage you get from your damage stat, and then by the skill multiplier. It's a pretty big pain though, so I don't know why Blizzard doesn't just add a field that lists min/max damage on whatever skill you have on your two mouse buttons.

There are still monster health bars so you can probably get a good idea of how hard you're hitting. Not sure if there's any way to see the raw number for life though.

And just how is the math going to be more complicated when all you do is select a box for a skill? You can't build your stats, which effected how well skills worked in D2. I don't see me needing to use an Excel spreadsheet to determine what the best combination is for a given build when there are literally no specs that are user changeable. Items can give you some yes, but thats nothing complicated to work out in your head.

With very few exceptions, attributes had little or no impact on skills. Most were just raw numbers that increased with more points into the skill. Strength made so little different in terms of actual damage dealt that it's only use was in hitting a minimal amount to use the gear you wanted. Dexterity was useful for shield block, which unless you were a Paladin, most classes and builds tended to ignore. Energy was useful for one build, that most people never used, otherwise utterly pointless.

Diablo 3 has a system that provides limited resources, meaning you can't just spam your best skill endlessly like you could in Diablo 2. This means you'll need to build some kind of rotation, which can be challenging to figure out. Also, several skills have cool downs that need to be accounted for as well. There are also trade offs between taking defensive skills or going for skills with some passive ability to improve damage. Critical hits are also present, and some classes have mechanics based around those.

Some of that can easily be fed into a spreadsheet, but a lot of it works better and gives more accurate results if simulated with a software program.

Did you even play Diablo 2 on an advanced level? Because as far as I can tell, you didn't. Because you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. In Diablo 2 you could adjust everything. In Diablo 3 you just click on a box, and every so many levels you unlock a "rune" which just gives an added ability. Zero customization.

Yes I did, but most of that customization was utterly meaningless. Most builds used one or two primary abilities. The others were chosen for synergy value, which was plainly spelled out. Similarly, attributes were generally allocated in a very narrow and set way. Diablo 2 may as well have been a series of boxes that you clicked.

I agree that the system in Diablo 3 is entirely too linear, though. I would greatly prefer being able to have some control over the order in which I unlock skills. I can understand if Blizzard won't allow me to instantly unlock the best, end-game abilities, but a pool of five or so skills that I could choose from would be better. Similarly, I would like to pick the runes that I want to unlock. It may make balancing the game more challenging, but considering that most people will spent most of their time playing the game at the higher levels, it probably doesn't matter which order they chose to unlock skills when in the end they all end up in the same place.

Still, though, I fail to see how you come away with zero customization. There's certainly less of it in some aspects than Diablo 2, but as I've said, Diablo 2's customization is really so shallow that it could just be reduced to a series of check boxes. If you want to argue that you should be free to make some utterly ridiculous character the evenly distributes points across all skills and dumps every attribute point into energy, go ahead, but most would agree it's somewhat pointless and probably not terribly friendly to more casual players.

I think that Diablo 3 is going to result in a lot more variety. There are still probably going to be a small handful of cookie-cutter builds that are popular, but I believe that the game design will be much more conducive towards strange and unique builds being more viable. I also think that it's going to be a lot more fun to play. Diablo 2 was about endlessly spamming one or two skills and occasionally using a skill with a long duration that you could forget about for the next few minutes. Diablo 3 felt about the same until I played the monk and leveled up enough to have 4 skills. At that point combat became ridiculously fun as I would dash between groups, blind the enemies so that I wouldn't take damage, build up spirit with my primary ability, and then unleash a roundhouse kick to knock the enemies back just after blind had worn off. The Barbarian could similarly use all 4 skills on a regular basis. I don't think the other classes had gotten to this point quite yet, but after looking at the different skills for each class I think that most of them will have builds that mix in at least 3 or 4 skills on a regular basis. A few builds could probably use 5 or even all 6. If giving up some generally meaningless customization allows for a game that's more fun to play and is more tightly balanced, I'm not going to miss clicking on attribute points.
 

slayer202

Lifer
Nov 27, 2005
13,682
119
106
The more I read about people defending the new system the more the less I buy into it. Saying that there were only certain builds that worked is a lie, and the added respecs were added like 10 years after the game came out.

Every character had at least two major build types that could work. Not to mention having to decide whether you wanted more synergies or more passive defensive skills for example. I don't understand the argument against this.

Then you have +skill items of many types. I assume this will be the same in D3 but it's not the same when you aren't having to choose between skills. And people arguing that having to learn the game and make the correct stat decisions and planning in advance is a bad thing, I don't understand it.
 

TheUnk

Golden Member
Jun 24, 2005
1,810
0
71
Sorry but if I have to read a huge article to explain why the new system is so much better, it probably isn't.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Sorry but if I have to read a huge article to explain why the new system is so much better, it probably isn't.

In P&N they call that intellectual laziness. You'd have to read a long article to understand why calculus is necessary for the advancement of human civilization.
Is that bullshit too?
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
In P&N they call that intellectual laziness. You'd have to read a long article to understand why calculus is necessary for the advancement of human civilization.
Is that bullshit too?



That's not even remotely the same. Video games are an entertainment experience and should feel right. They shouldn't be intellectual ventures to try and fool your senses with convoluted articles and explanations for why what you're feeling isn't valid.
 

Kalmah

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2003
3,692
1
76
Quick solution:

If distributing stat points is meaningless then make them meaningful instead.

Don't remove it, fix it.

Problem is solved, game is back to where it should be.
 
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