**OFFICIAL** FFXIV:ARR Thread

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PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
for tank the +1 relic is only good for threat gen, and other pieces are better for mitigation. I'm not really hitting threat issues right now, and if I join a raiding guild I won't be asked to MT with the kind of gear I have.

Pld is probably the only exception to the +1 relic first rule, a lot of people recommend getting body over the +1 relic even.
 

tedrodai

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2006
1,014
1
0
Yeah, I also wasn't talking about darklight, but rather the myth tome purchases and which armor pieces ppl prioritize. Some choose BIS first to minimize chance of wasting tomes, some choose highest overall benefit at the time.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
for tank the +1 relic is only good for threat gen, and other pieces are better for mitigation. I'm not really hitting threat issues right now, and if I join a raiding guild I won't be asked to MT with the kind of gear I have.

Pld is probably the only exception to the +1 relic first rule, a lot of people recommend getting body over the +1 relic even.

Yeah, PLD is the exception to the rule.

Yeah, I also wasn't talking about darklight, but rather the myth tome purchases and which armor pieces ppl prioritize. Some choose BIS first to minimize chance of wasting tomes, some choose highest overall benefit at the time.

Sorry got things mixed up then. I purchase my Mytho items by the turn they drop. My legs for example drop on turn 5, well I know we aren't going to finish turn 5 for awhile so that is my first purchase, just happens in that case they are BIS leggings for me. Otherwise depending on your raids progression, buying BIS is really the only other worthwhile way of doing it. IMO buying a piece of mytho gear that you will replace from allegan gear that drops in the first 4 turns is a waste unless your raid is really struggling.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
So transferred to hyperion... materias are expensive everywhere you go. At this point I think it's more worthwhile to spiritbond craftsman gear than anything else when you're farming CM or WP or whatever.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
For what it's worth, I HQ 2star all day erry'day but never use Rumination (since getting BB at least, admittedly not everyone has that advantage) and never use Manipulation or Mend on anything but 40 dura synths (where it's basically unavoidable to get your IQ stacked). At this point I don't even TotT on 1star items anymore - though thats more to do with my gear and ease of HQing 1star mats at this point more than anything else.

The value of WN is lost in the obsession with the "cp / durability" measure, which is useful but one-dimensional. WN is valuable because it increases the potential value of each durability two-fold, so even if it results in a net loss in durability compared to Manipulation, that durability has been twice as productive. They're two paths to the same goal, but to me all that matters at the end of the craft is how many times I can/need to hit the damn thing, regardless of how much raw durability it takes. With that said, I think working off of "CP per 'action'" is much more useful. Or even, "CP per 'additional action'" which would be [CP Spent (on WN/MM/MM2/MAN)] / ([total strikes taken] - [max durability / 10]).

This is best illustrated by using an 80 durability craft, as you simply do not have enough room on 40 dura for WN to show it's longterm value beyond the start of a craft; though I always always always start 40 dura crafts (well, high level ones) with IQ/SH2/WN/4x HT.

For example:

80 dura craft process using WN v MM2 (widely cited as the most efficient use of CP to durability)

IQ - 18
SH2 - 25
WN - 56
"Action" x4
SH2 - 25
WN - 56
"Action" x4
SH2 - 25
WN - 56
"Action" x4

This will drop a 80 dura craft to 20/80, give you 12 "actions" and cost you 243 CP to do so. 243 / 12 = 20.25 CP per action.

IQ - 18
SH2 - 25
"Action" x5
SH2 - 25
"Action" x1
MM2 - 160
"Action" x3
SH2 - 25
"Action" x3

Using Masters Mend 2 this process will drop an 80 dura craft to 20/80, give you 12 "actions" and cost you 253 CP to do so. 253 / 12 = 21.08 CP per action.

However it has the benefit of having 2 SH charges 'left over' whereas WN would require you re-up SH. How much this matters is debatable considering two SH charges is likely not enough for you to completely finish both your quality and durability on any craft you would actually use this approach on, thus probably requiring you to re-up SH anyway.

TotT arguably throws a wrench into things and favors the latter technique because you, of course, aren't losing out on the WN charges; but if you just look at the net result there's not a huge difference. The CP differential between the two does not change (it only shifts) and the only tangible difference is actions that will then occur in/out of WN and how many total actions are possible. This is assuming the "Good" occurs during a WN of course - goods between WN should absolutely be Tricked.

TotT taken during WN // Delta durability after WN // Delta actions after WN // Delta actions in WN // Net action change
0 // 0 // 0 // 0 // 0
1 // +5 // +1 // -1 // 0
2 // +10 // +1 // -2 // -1
3 // +15 // +2 // -3 // -1
4 // +20 // +2 // -4 // -2
5 // +25 // +3 // -5 // -2
etc.

So you might lose up to two actions in normal circumstances, as such your "cp per action" will increase and be inferior to that of MM2. However I think there's one more unsung benefit to WN, and that is granularity and how it helps mitigate randomness.

With MM there is no middle ground, you can't take "2/3" of a MM2 even if that's all you would want/need (though you could use Manip/MM I suppose) - but you can do only 2/3 WNs (which is actually what I would advocate - three is overkill unless you have absolutely atrocious luck with HT). And what this does is open up even more CP ( 160 MM2 - 112 2x WN = 48) which is important because of how it enhances your options for your 'finisher'.

I always want to make sure I have enough for my finishing combo and spending ~112 CP on two WNs instead of 160 on MM2 makes that easier, especially if you aren't using CP food or don't have great gear/materia. You can accomplish the same thing (100% quality) by simply stacking your IQ higher with the additional touches and using a 'lesser finisher', true (again, two paths to the same goal) but I want to need as few successful touches as I possibly can to mitigate the effect bad luck can have. So to me, knowing that I 'only' need X IQ stacks + my 'full' finisher is superior to X + Y IQ stacks with a 'cheaper' finisher because it increases the amount of quality that is not left up to chance.

Ultimately I think on 80 dura, you're splitting hairs between MM2 and WN. You've got enough room either way to be OK with the proper skills imo. But I absolutely prefer 2x WNs to 1x MM2 because of the CP savings that I can then allocate towards my SH/Ing/GS/Inno/BB finale. Admittedly if you've got the CP materia and food, you wouldn't really have a problem reaching that point either way. But for most people who are much closer to 300 CP than they are to 400, I think 48 can make a big difference to how you finish your craft, especially since the MM2 process as is would take 253 out of most peoples (probably) roughly 300-330 CP.

==================

On 40 dura, WN is still very useful but less so because it needs to be alternated with a Durability restore of some sort to prevent a break.

40 dura with WN and Manip

IQ - 18
SH2 - 25
WN - 56
"Action" x4
Manip - 88
SH2 - 25
"Action x3"

20 dura with 212 cp spent on 7 actions: 212/7 = 30.29

I use the above method for all my 1star mats and HQ almost every single one (and for my 2star mats, but with them I actually use TotT and CP food and go for 2x WN and a Manip with Comfort Zones used as well (the target for me is to always have 147 CP at the end of the craft)). The advantage here being (again) a stronger finisher compared to one more swing (and a trivial difference in cp/action). I finish every one with SH + Ingenuity 2 + Great Strides -> If Good (Byregots Blessing) else (Innovation) -> Byregot's Blessing -> Careful Synthesis 2 (and end up with 0 cp or 2 cp with no food? I forget exactly).

Most crafters could accomplish something similar with SH -> Ingenuity -> Great Strides -> Advanced Touch -> Standard Synthesis at a cost of 135 CP, meaning a starting CP of 337 - whereas doing the same with Manipulation only (below) would require 372. But, I'll get into this below, unless you're using Byregot's Blessing you should almost always end with your Rumination returned CP - probably making this less of an issue.

40 dura with Manip only

IQ - 18
SH2 - 25
"Action" x2
Manip - 88
"Action" x2
SH2 - 25
"Action" x1
Manip - 88
"Action" x3

20 dura w/ 244 cp spent on 8 actions: 244/8 = 30.5

So essentially same CP cost per action but you spend more CP at once leaving you with less available at the end. Again my preference is to spend less CP on the process and more on the finisher but you really need to experiment based on the skills and gear available to you - and be able to adjust on the fly if you have particularly bad (or good even) luck.

Ultimately I think the difference maker is Byregot's Blessing. Without it, you pretty much always have Rumination available to you at the end of a craft for a pretty significant CP return, so saving throughout the craft is not as vital - mitigating some of what makes Waste Not valuable. But when you have BB, I think you can use it with WN to make your HQs more reliable and faster by spending less CP on more Hasty Touches and allocating it towards more 'guaranteed' quality through your other skills (or even Basic Touches).
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
Except for the materia needed for pre-relic melds, I think they're more volatile than expensive typically. They tend to drift downward on our server until some guy overmelding stuff comes through and buys a ton of them at once, causing them to spike up (and 'reset' the price history) and then drift down again.

Personally I prefer using the Militia gear and rolling the dice for grade 4 battle materia rather than using crafting gear, but they're not overly valuable on our server either. Grade 2 craft is about 10k, grade 3 craft about 10-15k, grade 2 CP 2-4k, grade 3 cp 8-10k, grade 2 control 10-15k, grade 3 control 15-20k iirc.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Starting melding a bit of materia for weaver, trying to get craftsmanship high enough to do vanya pieces. I'm missing about 10 Craftsmanship... and most of my slots are already filled. Is it time to try to overmeld? Should I try 1 +5 craftsman on my offhand or should I try several +3s just in case it fails? Same with body piece I suppose.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
It'd be cool if my stupid friends could get together more than once per stupid week so we could go beyond stupid turn 2 in stupid coil lol. We can do the first two just fine but then we put off going to 4 and never get the people together in time.

Also the latest Live Letter had a bunch of interesting info about housing. I'm curious to find out more about final pricing and how the furniture will be created/used. I hope it can be used to expand FC storage.

And while I want a house... I won't be surprised if my FC doesn't even have a full group of 8 playing regularly by then - going to be hard to justify the purchase. I don't think they know how to not burn themselves out on a game. Ever.
 

robvp

Senior member
Aug 7, 2013
544
0
41
It'd be cool if my stupid friends could get together more than once per stupid week so we could go beyond stupid turn 2 in stupid coil lol. We can do the first two just fine but then we put off going to 4 and never get the people together in time.

Also the latest Live Letter had a bunch of interesting info about housing. I'm curious to find out more about final pricing and how the furniture will be created/used. I hope it can be used to expand FC storage.

And while I want a house... I won't be surprised if my FC doesn't even have a full group of 8 playing regularly by then - going to be hard to justify the purchase. I don't think they know how to not burn themselves out on a game. Ever.
im hoping furnishing will be used as storage like in ffxi
i suppose most of the item recipes will be added to the woodworker, just like in ffxi
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
iirc head/gloves can be melded with 4 craftmanship and chest/offhand can hold a bunch. I don't think overmelding is bad for the very first one at least (~40% chance), but past that it can get ugly. For 10 the easiest way to do it would probably be 2x +3s and a +4 or 2x +5s depending on if you have a need to overmeld the slots for something else. I just wouldn't go past one overmeld until absolutely necessary because of the success % dropoff.
 

nanobreath

Senior member
May 14, 2008
978
0
0
Starting melding a bit of materia for weaver, trying to get craftsmanship high enough to do vanya pieces. I'm missing about 10 Craftsmanship... and most of my slots are already filled. Is it time to try to overmeld? Should I try 1 +5 craftsman on my offhand or should I try several +3s just in case it fails? Same with body piece I suppose.

You're going to have to do some overmelding, but with proper planning you can minimize the cost. Always do the most expensive pieces of materia in the guaranteed slots. The overmelds then can typically go towards the level I and II materia. In the case you mentioned, it is usually cheaper to do several +3's than to risk failure with the +5. You're going to have a very low chance on that 2nd overmeld, but it is still cheaper wasting 2k gil materia instead of 20k gil materia.

I would double check the costs of the materia on your server first. These things can fluctuate wildly.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
at this point I have enough ctrl (melded a bunch of +3s) but need the craftsmanship. I'll probably try the +3 (maybe +4) materias since the +5 is a 35% chance of success, and I've never really rolled the dice and won. Will try a 2 +4s and then stick a +3 somewhere at the cost of some CP.

I've yet to double/triple overmeld my rings and accessories though I really should.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
I will kill AK if it doesn't drop the stupid Hoplite Earring for me Warrior accuracy is not an easy thing to come by.

Also imo Garuda farm is a pretty fun alternative to dungeon running for some myth tomes and weapons, hadn't done that before. I actually really like all the primal fights, it's just easy to get a bad impression if you have a group that struggles with them when you first do some. Really looking forward to SE adding more of them eventually, but I hope they continue to 'ramp up' from Titan and don't get put in between previous primals - at least in terms of difficulty/mechanics.

Supply on 2star mats seems a bit higher this week and prices on them seem to have dropped slightly. But I can't tell if it's because it's the beginning of the week or if the WP changes are finally 'trickling' into the economy. I think it's the former though.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
I can't bring myself to plunge 350k to make a 2 star for 150k profit. Not sure about your server economy but this is assuming I can get tome mats for 35k a piece, they generally go for 40-45k on the boards.

This is also assuming i actually HQ: I just got enough craft/ctrl to make vanya pieces, and I'm afraid of screwing up the batch due to bad luck with touches. (have 319 CP)

If I NQ the thing there's no way I can move it on the market boards and I'll lose like 200k if I manage to sell the piece. To make myself feel better I made some HQ crafter pieces to sell for 10k profit. >_>
 

tedrodai

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2006
1,014
1
0
I can't bring myself to plunge 350k to make a 2 star for 150k profit. Not sure about your server economy but this is assuming I can get tome mats for 35k a piece, they generally go for 40-45k on the boards.

This is also assuming i actually HQ: I just got enough craft/ctrl to make vanya pieces, and I'm afraid of screwing up the batch due to bad luck with touches. (have 319 CP)

If I NQ the thing there's no way I can move it on the market boards and I'll lose like 200k if I manage to sell the piece. To make myself feel better I made some HQ crafter pieces to sell for 10k profit. >_>

Same for me. And the demand on my server sucks compared to the supply.
 
Last edited:

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
I've been buying tome mats at 25k each / 80k per 3 for a while now on Leviathan but the market board tends to sit around 29-33k and going up to nearly 40k at times if someone goes on a buying spree still. I don't think the prices on them are truly dropping yet because there's still solid demand for them, especially as crafters are 'expanding' to make and sell stuff on the boards requiring 18 and 27 materials. Plus there's always a slight glut of them at the beginning of the week as people burn dungeons to get their myth tomes.

I have noticed this server tends to be pretty deflated relative to others based off of price quotes/screenshots I've seen from others. Haven't really been able to determine why though, maybe the server just didn't buy much gil or there's a large enough player base for it to not make such a difference.

And as long as you don't break the Vanya Silk you should be fine. Even with an NQ silk you have to make it into an armor 'component' which is an 80 dura synth that gives you a good chance to HQ. And even if you NQ that, you have yet another chance while making the armor itself. And both of the latter crafts can have HQ twinthread and other components feed into them giving you even more base quality to work off of. Of course one HQ doesn't guarantee another, but it's pretty easy to start crafting the armor itself and have your quality bar 1/3 - 1/2 full right off the bat. Until you get a better handle on it I would avoid the items that don't have the 'middle step' however and are built straight from the Vanya Silk itself, such as the belts.

If you really want to 'test yourself', 2* crafting and 1* crafting is exactly the same in terms of how effective your skills are. The only difference is the price of the mats and the size of the quality and progress bars. So you can anticipate what you'll need to do before actually trying one if you want, that's how I determined what I would need to do to one-shot the 40 dura crafts and you can gauge how much quality you can/need to pump out.

I was apprehensive at first as well but like I said, my 'most pimped out crafting gear' is way overkill and basically wasted materia for 2*. One of the things I've made most is heavy darksteel armor/flanchards and my armorsmith has 347 craft and like... 330 control - really not much more than the minimum stat requirements. I do have maxxed CP however on all my crafts, which is like... 345 I think and I typically eat whatever of the +CP foods I can get on the cheap.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Same for me. And the demand on my server sucks compared to the supply.

Slightly different note here, but related: On top of that, if you're looking to profit off some extra philosophy tomes, it's more profitable (on my server) to buy mats with tomes and sell the mats rather than buy them with tomes and craft them into something to sell.

how do you figure? Lets say you have 9 tomes at 25k, that's 225k. Lets say remaining mats are 25k, and you get a nice even 250k for crafting a vanya/griffonskin/something or other. I find it hard to believe those pieces are selling for less than 250k HQ.

Of course you lose money if you NQ, which is the scenario I'm afraid of. But that's how most crafting was in FF11: NQ = loss, HQ = profit.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
And as long as you don't break the Vanya Silk you should be fine. Even with an NQ silk you have to make it into an armor 'component' which is an 80 dura synth that gives you a good chance to HQ. And even if you NQ that, you have yet another chance while making the armor itself. And both of the latter crafts can have HQ twinthread and other components feed into them giving you even more base quality to work off of. Of course one HQ doesn't guarantee another, but it's pretty easy to start crafting the armor itself and have your quality bar 1/3 - 1/2 full right off the bat. Until you get a better handle on it I would avoid the items that don't have the 'middle step' however and are built straight from the Vanya Silk itself, such as the belts.

If you really want to 'test yourself', 2* crafting and 1* crafting is exactly the same in terms of how effective your skills are. The only difference is the price of the mats and the size of the quality and progress bars. So you can anticipate what you'll need to do before actually trying one if you want, that's how I determined what I would need to do to one-shot the 40 dura crafts and you can gauge how much quality you can/need to pump out.

I was apprehensive at first as well but like I said, my 'most pimped out crafting gear' is way overkill and basically wasted materia for 2*. One of the things I've made most is heavy darksteel armor/flanchards and my armorsmith has 347 craft and like... 330 control - really not much more than the minimum stat requirements. I do have maxxed CP however on all my crafts, which is like... 345 I think and I typically eat whatever of the +CP foods I can get on the cheap.

So it might be better to just NQ the vanya and try to HQ the other components? NQing it should be easy with innov.

I have 347 craft and 328 Control, and about 310 CP that I need to beef out a bit or cover with good food. I can reliably HQ any 1 star synths (easiness depends on luck with touches) but just a bit concerned about HQ process bar for 2 stars, and I'm not really willing to burn 350k to investigate. I guess I can try to buy the mats for cheap.

Just don't want to try this and have a bad streak with touches (3-4 fails in a row).
 

tedrodai

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2006
1,014
1
0
how do you figure? Lets say you have 9 tomes at 25k, that's 225k. Lets say remaining mats are 25k, and you get a nice even 250k for crafting a vanya/griffonskin/something or other. I find it hard to believe those pieces are selling for less than 250k HQ.

Of course you lose money if you NQ, which is the scenario I'm afraid of. But that's how most crafting was in FF11: NQ = loss, HQ = profit.

You're right, you're right. This was not a good morning for me to try to come up with a solution involving math and logic. I was mentally comparing the profit of buying with tomes & selling mats vs buying with gil and selling the final product. Not a useful comparison =p
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
I'd try to HQ the silk certainly because a chance is a chance, but I'd just be careful because it's easy to burn more CP than intended keeping a 40 dura synth going and get 'trapped' - when ultimately NQing it is not the end of the world. Having to try to finish a craft with a non SHed Standard Synthesis at 5/40 dura or something like that is not a chance you want to be taking

I know you can one-shot it with Ingenuity 2 and Standard Synthesis at that craftmanship level (again, that's something you can test on 1*), I do not know offhand if the same can be said of normal Ingenuity - I always use 2 because I can't be bothered swapping the skills lol and I can deal with the CP cost (plus Ing2 lets me oneshot 1* mats with Careful Synthesis II - which is quite handy).
 

tedrodai

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2006
1,014
1
0
Dear god I can't handle Garuda duty finder. Won with the first random group after 1 wipe last week. Since then nothing but tears...even though some groups would get so close.
 

tedrodai

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2006
1,014
1
0
why not just join a group in mor dhona? There's garuda farming groups going all the time.

Well I can't handle that fight in duty finder any more, like I said, so Mor Dhona or FC/LS groups are the only way I'm gonna bother. It's not that I avoid that sort of group, but rather duty finder has been a great boon to me so far on my decidedly more casual schedule these days. Until Ifrit HM, I've only had 1 duty finder group downright fail, and only 1 other that wiped more than once on any given fight...most go very well. Even Ifrit is easy enough that duty finder seems to work well for me. But the Garuda fight is just that 1 step up that seems to doom most duty finder groups to failure for whatever combination of inconsistencies you end up with.

Mor Dhona groups aren't so common that I can get into 1 any given time I log in, so I'll just have to do what I can when I can.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
They're not there all the time but I would say I definitely see them regularly. Been in them myself recently, lost the roll on 3 axes so far ><
 
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