**OFFICIAL** Killzone 2 Thread

[blurredvision]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: blurredvision

Originally posted by: Industrial
Yeah, it's not prevalent, when you do short movements to aim, and make constant little adjustments, or when you do quick pop in and outs from cover. It is noticeable when you expect to whip your aim to the far sides, which gives that slow then accelerated pointing. I think that's to give you that heavy weighted down feeling they keep mentioning about. It was annoying at first, but I think people need to learn to not be so heavy handed when aiming.

When I tried to rush them and then melee them with the knife, at the times I missed, and when I tried to correct myself I would overspin missing them totally. Again, I got annoyed initially, but the more I played, the more it makes sense. If you are running around with 50+ lbs of gear, your initial movements is a little slow and once you get going, your momentum carries you, so you can't stop on a dime and expect to quickly correct yourself.

The input delay and sensitivity of the movements are two completely different things. Almost everyone is getting this confused. Some will complain about input delay, and someone else will respond that it's "realistic" and "weighty".

If you want to talk about movement being slow, then ya, your guy has a lot of shit he's wearing. But if you want to talk about input delay, you could use the argument that the guy you control is mentally retarded. Hmmm, maybe if the Killzone devs put into the story lore that Sev is autistic or something, the fanboys would start using that as an excuse...

... have you READ my recent posts?

Woah there cowboy. I was responding to Industrial's post. I'm on your side here.

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: blurredvision

Originally posted by: Industrial
Yeah, it's not prevalent, when you do short movements to aim, and make constant little adjustments, or when you do quick pop in and outs from cover. It is noticeable when you expect to whip your aim to the far sides, which gives that slow then accelerated pointing. I think that's to give you that heavy weighted down feeling they keep mentioning about. It was annoying at first, but I think people need to learn to not be so heavy handed when aiming.

When I tried to rush them and then melee them with the knife, at the times I missed, and when I tried to correct myself I would overspin missing them totally. Again, I got annoyed initially, but the more I played, the more it makes sense. If you are running around with 50+ lbs of gear, your initial movements is a little slow and once you get going, your momentum carries you, so you can't stop on a dime and expect to quickly correct yourself.

The input delay and sensitivity of the movements are two completely different things. Almost everyone is getting this confused. Some will complain about input delay, and someone else will respond that it's "realistic" and "weighty".

If you want to talk about movement being slow, then ya, your guy has a lot of shit he's wearing. But if you want to talk about input delay, you could use the argument that the guy you control is mentally retarded. Hmmm, maybe if the Killzone devs put into the story lore that Sev is autistic or something, the fanboys would start using that as an excuse...

... have you READ my recent posts?

I'm trying to figure out the reason. As I said.. I have NO delay. I push button - something happens. Immediately.

We need to poll this pretty intensely, and try and get it to the devs. Maybe I'll set up something on the official PS forums, because this is kind of annoying. I don't know why some experience the delay and some do not.

Because like I said, I went into my second demo session today with an open mind, and actually spent a few moments trying to test for a delay. I came up with nothing, not during testing, and not during actual play.

That's my point EXACTLY, you may not notice it but others do, there's no way this is a variable thing, this is not a PC game, it's a fixed-hardware console game.

A quarter of a second constitutes a moment, the example you give (push a button - something happens) is really what DOES happen but there's a small lag that some people don't notice, maybe it has something to do with TV refresh rates or something that hinders perception on some but you are making it sound as if you DON'T have the lag when in fact you DO, you just don't perceive it.

 

[purbeast0]

Whether the input delay bothers you or you notice it, it is there and it's real, regardless of you noticing it or claiming there is 0 delay.

I mean hell, the devs have flat out said there is over on the playstation forums...

It bugs some, others it doesn't.

 

[blurredvision]

Sucks that Killzone 2 has to have all this drama, doesn't it? It's fitting, though, after the 2005 E3 trailer.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: blurredvision
Woah there cowboy. I was responding to Industrial's post. I'm on your side here.

oops, forgot the '' following the first line.

Originally posted by: purbeast0
Whether the input delay bothers you or you notice it, it is there and it's real, regardless of you noticing it or claiming there is 0 delay.

I mean hell, the devs have flat out said there is over on the playstation forums...

It bugs some, others it doesn't.

Originally posted by: Piuc2020
That's my point EXACTLY, you may not notice it but others do, there's no way this is a variable thing, this is not a PC game, it's a fixed-hardware console game.

A quarter of a second constitutes a moment, the example you give (push a button - something happens) is really what DOES happen but there's a small lag that some people don't notice, maybe it has something to do with TV refresh rates or something that hinders perception on some but you are making it sound as if you DON'T have the lag when in fact you DO, you just don't perceive it.

Well first, while this is a console, there are different situations. Different A/V configurations create different lag, or display what is perceived as no lag.

Video with Input Lag

That was a video that was posted earlier in the thread. It shows very noticeable input lag.
I don't see that when I play though. I see no lag.

I understand your argument that not everyone perceives A/V lag the same, but I guarantee you, I am witnessing NO lag when I play, but I can see very clear lag in that video. In the PC universe I've become accustomed to noticing hardware or other lag, so I think I know what to look for here. I don't have slow visual field recognition/reflexes.

I'm going to be pretty firm that this issue isn't a matter of whether or not the individual sees visual lag the same, it's a matter of whether or not that person is even experiencing visual lag.

There is a difference between perceiving video latency, and input lag. It either happens or doesn't. Unless you are not paying attention to the screen, you should know when you depressed a button on a controller, and as we have all become accustomed to through various other FPS games, and all games for that matter... when you press a button, something happens immediately. Other games don't really present that issue, and nobody has ever really complained about input lag in other FPS games. The fact that it is happening in this game, and is not something 100% of players experiences, is even more strange.
When I press a button, immediately on screen whatever is supposed to happen, happens.


edit:
Here is some pertinent information:
Official Developer Post About Controls
Post That Developer Referred To Regarding Input Lag

Those two threads on the Official US PlayStation Forums should help clear that up.
This is NOT a game issue. It might be in some strange way, but it's more dependent upon the system itself it seems.
And back to what I had queried before and no one tried to follow along:
Using most up-to-date firmware?
DualShock 3, and fully charged?

And some other ideas:
Any Bluetooth devices other than controllers connected?
Anything happening in the background of the system?

Seems that possibly whatever the problem might be, it might be within the K2 demo itself, but whatever it is, it might be causing sensitivity and slow-down in the system. Killzone 2 is extremely taxing on the PS3 so it might be the first game to even have this kind of sensitivity to the strangest things.

My second play session, where I was looking for it, the whole game felt a little snappier (might just have been myself adjusting to the gameplay this time through, since it was a drastic reduction in speed compared to, well, every other FPS). I'm on latest firmware, had internet connectivity, and only other thing plugged in was an external HDD. No other controllers, no headsets, and while I had been using the BD Remote prior, it was turned off. System had been on for an hour prior as I was watching an episode of a show off of that drive.

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: blurredvision
The problem is that you cannot peak out and shoot until you reach the end of a wall. On many, many occassions, reaching the end of the wall meant half of my body was sticking out even when I wasn't peaking around. So even if I was standing there and not peaking out, enemies in a roughly 180 degree line of sight can still hit me with relative ease. If I stay behind the wall, then I can't peak out, which makes cover pointless.

IMO, the cover system is completely broken, and I've even encountered a few bugs when I'm trying to peak and zoom at the same time. Occassionally it'll start twitching back and forth, not allowing me to do anything until I let go of everything on the controller and revert back to a normal stance.

No offense, but I think you honestly just can't use it right. I can peek perfectly fine from behind cover, assuming it's not too tall (the concrete blocks, for example, are not too tall).

All you do is get into cover. Then, you push the left analog stick UP, and you peek out. You have to hold the stick up, though. From there, you can zoom as well.

At the side, you obviously have to hold the stick left or right, but the same applies.

Unless the alternate control schemes mess with cover, that is how you do it. I have had none of the problems you've encountered at all. It works great for me.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: destrekor
...
Video with Input Lag

That was a video that was posted earlier in the thread. It shows very noticeable input lag.
I don't see that when I play though. I see no lag.

I understand your argument that not everyone perceives A/V lag the same, but I guarantee you, I am witnessing NO lag when I play, but I can see very clear lag in that video. In the PC universe I've become accustomed to noticing hardware or other lag, so I think I know what to look for here. I don't have slow visual field recognition/reflexes.

I'm going to be pretty firm that this issue isn't a matter of whether or not the individual sees visual lag the same, it's a matter of whether or not that person is even experiencing visual lag.

There is a difference between perceiving video latency, and input lag....

The video itself defeats your argument. NOTICE the portion when the guy on that same TV setup in the middle of the demo presses the PS button and goes into the XMB menu? Notice how the lag was like not there at all in the XMB? If it was AV lag then why hasn't this showed up in the guy's XMB? I doubt the signal frequency is all the sudden changing when he enters XMB while in game.

But, I just love how all sorts of theories come out in defense of this BIG mistake. All games (as far as I know) are playing smooth as butter in all sorts of setups, even games made by the cheapest of studios....then *queue in the music*... KillZone 2, this "Master Piece" exclusive has all the problems in the world! And all the sudden people are told to check their TV's / Monitors, unplug their dryers, change their tooth brushes... defrost the freezer! :laugh:

BTW, I have my PS3 hooked up to my 22" Samsung LCD through a 3 Ft HDMI-DVI cable. That is as optimum as a setup can freaking get from a quality and lag perspective.

Now I am not saying it's impossible that there could be some sort of unknown new hardware problem (some resource conflict of sorts)....but chances are very VERY slim that such problems remained hidden since PS3 release all up until KZ2 came along and exposed them, they must be coding some voodoo for that to happen IMO.

The Bluetooth Headset issue posted on that forum was shown to have effect on other games toonot just KZ2 (the guy was having issue in COD4 & KZ2)

Additionally, I had already tried this with my PS3 with nothing connected to it spare the controller and the latest firmware updated (naturally)

I could be mistaken, but if this problem is in the Final release, these guys are up for some Pitch Forks and Torches outside their offices, should they throw the "feature" argument.
I am just glad I didn't buy the game and ran into this issue, thank God we can opt out of pre-orders.

 

[blurredvision]

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: blurredvision
The problem is that you cannot peak out and shoot until you reach the end of a wall. On many, many occassions, reaching the end of the wall meant half of my body was sticking out even when I wasn't peaking around. So even if I was standing there and not peaking out, enemies in a roughly 180 degree line of sight can still hit me with relative ease. If I stay behind the wall, then I can't peak out, which makes cover pointless.

IMO, the cover system is completely broken, and I've even encountered a few bugs when I'm trying to peak and zoom at the same time. Occassionally it'll start twitching back and forth, not allowing me to do anything until I let go of everything on the controller and revert back to a normal stance.

No offense, but I think you honestly just can't use it right. I can peek perfectly fine from behind cover, assuming it's not too tall (the concrete blocks, for example, are not too tall).

All you do is get into cover. Then, you push the left analog stick UP, and you peek out. You have to hold the stick up, though. From there, you can zoom as well.

At the side, you obviously have to hold the stick left or right, but the same applies.

Unless the alternate control schemes mess with cover, that is how you do it. I have had none of the problems you've encountered at all. It works great for me.

Maybe I'll take a video of what I'm talking about, then. I've had minimal problems with vertical cover, it's horizontal cover that's my problem. It certainly isn't an issue of me just not using it right, it's a pretty simple cover mechanic. Surely people won't have to read the manual to figure it out.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: destrekor
...
Video with Input Lag

That was a video that was posted earlier in the thread. It shows very noticeable input lag.
I don't see that when I play though. I see no lag.

I understand your argument that not everyone perceives A/V lag the same, but I guarantee you, I am witnessing NO lag when I play, but I can see very clear lag in that video. In the PC universe I've become accustomed to noticing hardware or other lag, so I think I know what to look for here. I don't have slow visual field recognition/reflexes.

I'm going to be pretty firm that this issue isn't a matter of whether or not the individual sees visual lag the same, it's a matter of whether or not that person is even experiencing visual lag.

There is a difference between perceiving video latency, and input lag....

The video itself defeats your argument. NOTICE the portion when the guy on that same TV setup in the middle of the demo presses the PS button and goes into the XMB menu? Notice how the lag was like not there at all in the XMB? If it was AV lag then why hasn't this showed up in the guy's XMB? I doubt the signal frequency is all the sudden changing when he enters XMB while in game.

But, I just love how all sorts of theories come out in defense of this BIG mistake. All games (as far as I know) are playing smooth as butter in all sorts of setups, even games made by the cheapest of studios....then *queue in the music*... KillZone 2, this "Master Piece" exclusive has all the problems in the world! And all the sudden people are told to check their TV's / Monitors, unplug their dryers, change their tooth brushes... defrost the freezer! :laugh:

BTW, I have my PS3 hooked up to my 22" Samsung LCD through a 3 Ft HDMI-DVI cable. That is as optimum as a setup can freaking get from a quality and lag perspective.

Now I am not saying it's impossible that there could be some sort of unknown new hardware problem (some resource conflict of sorts)....but chances are very VERY slim that such problems remained hidden since PS3 release all up until KZ2 came along and exposed them, they must be coding some voodoo for that to happen IMO.

The Bluetooth Headset issue posted on that forum was shown to have effect on other games toonot just KZ2 (the guy was having issue in COD4 & KZ2)

Additionally, I had already tried this with my PS3 with nothing connected to it spare the controller and the latest firmware updated (naturally)

I could be mistaken, but if this problem is in the Final release, these guys are up for some Pitch Forks and Torches outside their offices, should they throw the "feature" argument.
I am just glad I didn't buy the game and ran into this issue, thank God we can opt out of pre-orders.

It doesn't really defeat my argument because why? Oh, that's right... I get no input lag. How that video showed the XMB and no input lag, but in the game... well when I play, it plays just like the video shows in the XMB. Thus, it's more than simply just the game.
If it was entirely the game and just the game, it wouldn't appear on other games when similar conditions were met, and it would also apply to everyone, not just seemingly random individuals.

I'm not trying to defend it, just prove the point that it is not something EVERYONE is experiencing. Case in point: me. The zero lag found in the XMB portion of that video is how the demo behaved the entire time.

 

[ObscureCaucasian]

Originally posted by: destrekor
I'm not trying to defend it, just prove the point that it is not something EVERYONE is experiencing. Case in point: me. The zero lag found in the XMB portion of that video is how the demo behaved the entire time.

Since the issue doesn't apply to all the devs aren't responsible?

EDIT: So I just tested mine and there is definitely lag... although not quite as bad as the youtube video, I could definitely get my finger off the button before the game responded, which is something I can't do in the XMB and you shouldn't be able to do.

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: blurredvision

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: blurredvision
The problem is that you cannot peak out and shoot until you reach the end of a wall. On many, many occassions, reaching the end of the wall meant half of my body was sticking out even when I wasn't peaking around. So even if I was standing there and not peaking out, enemies in a roughly 180 degree line of sight can still hit me with relative ease. If I stay behind the wall, then I can't peak out, which makes cover pointless.

IMO, the cover system is completely broken, and I've even encountered a few bugs when I'm trying to peak and zoom at the same time. Occassionally it'll start twitching back and forth, not allowing me to do anything until I let go of everything on the controller and revert back to a normal stance.

No offense, but I think you honestly just can't use it right. I can peek perfectly fine from behind cover, assuming it's not too tall (the concrete blocks, for example, are not too tall).

All you do is get into cover. Then, you push the left analog stick UP, and you peek out. You have to hold the stick up, though. From there, you can zoom as well.

At the side, you obviously have to hold the stick left or right, but the same applies.

Unless the alternate control schemes mess with cover, that is how you do it. I have had none of the problems you've encountered at all. It works great for me.

Maybe I'll take a video of what I'm talking about, then. I've had minimal problems with vertical cover, it's horizontal cover that's my problem. It certainly isn't an issue of me just not using it right, it's a pretty simple cover mechanic. Surely people won't have to read the manual to figure it out.

Yeah, a video would help. I'm totally confused as to what's not working for you.

 

[Draco]

My pre-order stands after playing the demo. The controls are definitely not like COD4, (which I'm use to) but I'll do my best to adapt. I think their 30hz refresh has something to do with it, at least partially. COD4 was 60hz

man, I haven't posted on anandtech in a while...

 

[Industrial]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Well, my discussion of 'delay'/'lag' has nothing to do with the aiming speed.
I am finding I am adjusting to it quite well, and have no qualms with it. And honestly it doesn't seem too many people have any issue with it either. Needing time to adjust is one thing, but hating the game due to slower aiming speed is wholly different.

What I was discussing, and what seems to not be something you experienced either, was some people experiencing an input lag. In this situation, what that means is some people go to aim, but they don't see any onscreen adjustment, absolutely none, until maybe a quarter to half of a second later.
Doesn't seem everyone is experiencing this, but seems strangely a prevalent issue.

Okay, so I tested and tried to look for it today when I got home. Yeah, I confused the discussions of input lag vs the heavy aiming and movement speed. Since I didn't experience the input lag, I thought it was the latter.

Watching that youtube video really put things into perspective. Yeah, I know it was slowed down to show the effects, but I am NOT experiencing that.

The closest I could experience the difference in input speed was pushing the PS button and pushing the buttons during the game menu. I don't think it's accurate to compare the two since there may be an intentional delay for the "Pip Boy" looking animation effects before the next menu pops up, hence the delayed feeling.

I held up the controller to the screen so I can see if there is any input lag. I pushed the fire button, it fired immediately. The input was faster than say comparing it to pushing the button during the menu selections. I tried the melee with the rifle and knife, it was instant. I tapped the stick up or down when he's holding the knife to make him stutter so I can see the response with his hands, it was pretty instant. Someone early said everyone perceives lag differently, some may be more sensitive than others. Well, I wish I could get a camera and record it for you guys to see.

When I'm moving around and aiming quickly, it felt unresponsive and almost clumsy, either the input is lagging or it's by design to simulate the weighted effects. When I try little short adjustments pointing at various things, it's seems fine, and I have no problem. Either I'm highly adaptive to overcome the delay, or I'm not experiencing delay.

It sucks that some people are having a problem with this delay to ruin it for them. You would think with 4 years of development that someone at GG must've played it and said wtf is this delay? Since they didn't have a hard date to release this game, hard to believe it was a rush job.

Here's what I have:
launch 60 gb PS3 with BC
bluetooth earpiece charging in the usb but not in use
3 ft generic hdmi cable
tried both on wireless the sixaxis and DS3
Samsung lcd tv

if it's hardware related, maybe we can narrow it down?

 

[Dumac]

After playing the demo extensively, I can say that I don't notice any lag either. However, with the amount of people claiming they notice lag, there is no way that it can be completely made up. Either I am not perceptive enough to notice it or it doesn't appear on my setup for some reason.

I did think the aiming felt a little funny at first. Not because of lag, but because of how the targeting reticle moved. Is there reticle acceleration or something? However, I got used to it pretty quickly, getting headshots easily in no time.

In short, the aiming doesn't really bother me. I still don't know if I am going to get the game, as the demo didn't really entice me at all. There doesn't really seem to be anything in the game that I haven't experienced in another FPS before. Maybe once I see multiplayer, I will change my mind?

In response to the post above,

launch 60gb PS3
Generic HDMI cable
Insignia LCD HDTV

 

[ObscureCaucasian]

I do have lag

40GB PS3 from last summer
The Xbox 360 HDMI Cable (Sabotage?)
Westinghouse 37" 1080P LCD

 

[blurredvision]

http://boardsus.playstation.co...uid=41140312#U41140312

The K2 developer's latest update says that in their investigation into the lag issue, they seem to think it's a demo-specific issue. He even notes that some people have found that redownloading the game has solved their input lag, but he cannot explain why the demo is giving these issues.

Whatever it is, it sucks for these developers, especially if it's a demo-specific problem that they can't nail down. They've worked almost 4 years on this game, sucks to have the internet pick it apart on something they might not have had any control over. Needless to say, I'll be waiting until after the game releases and get everyone's input (pun absolutely intended) on it.

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: blurredvision
http://boardsus.playstation.co...uid=41140312#U41140312

The K2 developer's latest update says that in their investigation into the lag issue, they seem to think it's a demo-specific issue. He even notes that some people have found that redownloading the game has solved their input lag, but he cannot explain why the demo is giving these issues.

Whatever it is, it sucks for these developers, especially if it's a demo-specific problem that they can't nail down. They've worked almost 4 years on this game, sucks to have the internet pick it apart on something they might not have had any control over. Needless to say, I'll be waiting until after the game releases and get everyone's input (pun absolutely intended) on it.

I've also heard people mentioning that re-downloading helps...though I don't see how that's possible.

At least they're investigating it. Generally they're the type of devs that do listen to community feedback, and they do want to please people. Even if, in the end, it's not fixed, it's likely they actually did try to do something about it.

Let's hope that it is just a demo issue or does end up getting fixed.

 

[hans030390]

Update: I guess GG decided they needed to make no changes to the game's controls (you can read it on the PS boards).

Hopefully this is just an issue with the demo like they speculated, and apparently they did test for lag.

However, MP is supposed to have slightly different controls (a bit faster than SP), according do the post on PS boards.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. I'll be buying a copy, so at the very least I'll be able to comment about the lag situation in the final game.

 

[CrazyIke11]

I was going to get this on launch, but the lag issue really concerns me. Let's hope it's fixed.

 

[purbeast0]

Originally posted by: CrazyIke11
I was going to get this on launch, but then I played the demo.

fixed for me

 

[blurredvision]

I'm also going to wait until we get some reports back from the final version of the game before committing to it.

 

[R Nilla]

I'm definitely still getting it so I'll try to provide some feedback when I get my copy. Absolute worst case scenario I can flip it on eBay for a small profit since I preordered it for $50. But I don't see that happening.

 

[imported_Hazy]

I don't get what "input lag" people are talking about, I had no problems at all with the controls. They felt great, especially the guns.

Can't wait for this to come out

 

[Queasy]

Making of Killzone 2 Video

 

[UpgradeFailure]

Anyone know if any stores broke the street date yet?