*** Official MLB Postseason thread ***

[lupi]

if afraud never shows this year, it could be bad for the phills.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: raystorm
yes, Lee vs CC.

Charlie Manuel has to figure out whether to use Pedro or Hamels in game 2. I assume its AJ for the Yanks

I was thinking Lee in game 1, Pedro in 2, Hammels in 3.

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
As a casual baseball fan.. NY vs Phil = Yawn. This is why the NFL will always be the #1 American sport.

NYY, a team that's always expected to win it all vs the defending world champs? That's a yawn? In addition, the explosive Philly offense is pretty exciting to watch.

I have no doubt that both teams are great. Its just too bad that there's little chance small market teams will ever get the same opportunities. Thats what makes the NFL great. Green Bay is just as likely to win as the New York Football Giants.

Oh, small market teams like the Rays, almost winning it all last year....

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: raystorm
yes, Lee vs CC.

Charlie Manuel has to figure out whether to use Pedro or Hamels in game 2. I assume its AJ for the Yanks

I was thinking Lee in game 1, Pedro in 2, Hammels in 3.

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
As a casual baseball fan.. NY vs Phil = Yawn. This is why the NFL will always be the #1 American sport.

NYY, a team that's always expected to win it all vs the defending world champs? That's a yawn? In addition, the explosive Philly offense is pretty exciting to watch.

I have no doubt that both teams are great. Its just too bad that there's little chance small market teams will ever get the same opportunities. Thats what makes the NFL great. Green Bay is just as likely to win as the New York Football Giants.

Oh, small market teams like the Rays, almost winning it all last year....

Bingo. His point is somewhat valid though, without the cap like in football, it's much easier for big market teams to dominate baseball (look at the NYY).

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
The World Series.. brought to you by Pfizer. :roll: What can enough money and enough steroids buy you?

Again, NO interest in watching this as a casual baseball fan.

well you're a bit wrong there; without a team like the yankess the ratings will be cellar floor worthy. football dominates all regardless, but the others need a very select listing of teams involved or the ratings really tank. just look up the stories from when lebron was getting his team into the playoffs and they weren't scoring higher than the weekly wrestling show. and there's a reason fox is now only doing the ACLS & WS and johns spa and bathworks is broadcasting the rest.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: raystorm
yes, Lee vs CC.

Charlie Manuel has to figure out whether to use Pedro or Hamels in game 2. I assume its AJ for the Yanks

I was thinking Lee in game 1, Pedro in 2, Hammels in 3.

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
As a casual baseball fan.. NY vs Phil = Yawn. This is why the NFL will always be the #1 American sport.

NYY, a team that's always expected to win it all vs the defending world champs? That's a yawn? In addition, the explosive Philly offense is pretty exciting to watch.

I have no doubt that both teams are great. Its just too bad that there's little chance small market teams will ever get the same opportunities. Thats what makes the NFL great. Green Bay is just as likely to win as the New York Football Giants.

Oh, small market teams like the Rays, almost winning it all last year....

And what did the Yankees do in response to that? Spend more money and get people like CC. Teams like the Rays were quickly beaten down into 3rd place. And I am not sure the Rays 'Almost won it all'.. Didn't they lose 4-2 in the series? Or was it 4-1?

 

[lupi]

1988 Los Angeles Dodgers
1989 Oakland Athletics
1990 Cincinnati Reds
1991 Minnesota Twins
1992 Toronto Blue
1993 Toronto Blue
1995 Atlanta Braves
1996 New York Yankees
1997 Florida Marlins
1998 New York Yankees
1999 New York Yankees
2000 New York Yankees
2001 Arizona Diamondbacks
2002 Anaheim Angels
2003 Florida Marlins
2004 Boston Red Sox
2005 Chicago White Sox
2006 St. Louis Cardinals
2007 Boston Red
2008 Philadelphia Phillies




While baseball fanbois may talk about the impact of current rules on helping the "small markets" compete, and will even toss around some bogus stats on how many of them get into the playoffs, lets look at what really matters, the winners. over the last 20 years how many of these small market teams do you see in there, outside of the marlins that spend big one year to make it when they hit the lotto number on prospect selection and then sell off the team to cover those expenditures, you have to go back almost the entire 20 years till you get to any.

 

[jalaram]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
And what did the Yankees do in response to that? Spend more money and get people like CC. Teams like the Rays were quickly beaten down into 3rd place. And I am not sure the Rays 'Almost won it all'.. Didn't they lose 4-2 in the series? Or was it 4-1?

4-1, but your point is not new. The winners in recent years as lupi pointed out will be the big spenders. The Rays and Marlins are the rare exceptions. Well run small market teams like the Twins and A's will always be knocking but don't necessarily win it all. Then, there are teams like the Mets that spend a ton and don't win. The Phillies weren't always winners even when they spent a lot.

The problem is that the MLB union is the strongest one in sports. They're fine with the disparity since it allows players to sign to mega paydays.

 

[chalmers]

And that's why I'm not interested in this series at all. Wow congrats Yankees, you couldn't make the playoffs last year so you spend millions and add a few more sellouts. That's not interesting at all. That type of practice totally ruins sports for me. It's not about competition and fun, it's about buying all the players. So if they lose this World Series are they going to bring in Pujols and Joe Mauer next year?

Pathetic.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: chalmers
And that's why I'm not interested in this series at all. Wow congrats Yankees, you couldn't make the playoffs last year so you spend millions and add a few more sellouts. That's not interesting at all. That type of practice totally ruins sports for me. It's not about competition and fun, it's about buying all the players. So if they lose this World Series are they going to bring in Pujols and Joe Mauer next year?

Pathetic.

somebody call the waaaaaaambulance :roll:

With your logic the NYY should be world series champs every year.

 

[chalmers]

I find it funny how nobody on the internet can complain about anything without it being construed as 'crying'.

Alright then. Go Yankees! You're a perfectly respectable franchise and I applaud your efforts at working hard to develop players through your farm system and grinding up to finally making a World Series! Props to you and your team's management!

 

[Inspector Jihad]

maybe all you small market folks should live in a real city

 

[SP33Demon]

Hey Yankee fans... are you ready for it? Pettite and A-Fraud? Wait for it...

YOU TOOK STEROIDS

It doesn't matter if NY wins, they still have admitted cheaters on their team. It's still tainted.

 

[amdhunter]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Hey Yankee fans... are you ready for it? Pettite and A-Fraud? Wait for it...

YOU TOOK STEROIDS

It doesn't matter if NY wins, they still have admitted cheaters on their team. It's still tainted.

Meh, you can't tell me more than half of the players on every professional sports team hasn't juiced at one time or another.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Originally posted by: chalmers
And that's why I'm not interested in this series at all. Wow congrats Yankees, you couldn't make the playoffs last year so you spend millions and add a few more sellouts. That's not interesting at all. That type of practice totally ruins sports for me. It's not about competition and fun, it's about buying all the players. So if they lose this World Series are they going to bring in Pujols and Joe Mauer next year?

Pathetic.

feel free to ignore the majors and watch some shitbum teams as they hitchhike to another abandoned field.

and, you're a communist

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: amdhunter

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Hey Yankee fans... are you ready for it? Pettite and A-Fraud? Wait for it...

YOU TOOK STEROIDS

It doesn't matter if NY wins, they still have admitted cheaters on their team. It's still tainted.

Meh, you can't tell me more than half of the players on every professional sports team hasn't juiced at one time or another.

Another stupid New York fan, I take it? Funny how they all come out of the woodwork when it's a lock that they wouldn't choke like in 2004, aka BCOAT (Best Choke of All Time).

I can't wait for the chant in Philly.

 

[akshatp]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: amdhunter

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Hey Yankee fans... are you ready for it? Pettite and A-Fraud? Wait for it...

YOU TOOK STEROIDS

It doesn't matter if NY wins, they still have admitted cheaters on their team. It's still tainted.

Meh, you can't tell me more than half of the players on every professional sports team hasn't juiced at one time or another.

Another stupid New York fan, I take it? Funny how they all come out of the woodwork when it's a lock that they wouldn't choke like in 2004, aka BCOAT (Best Choke of All Time).

I can't wait for the chant in Philly.

Hi Hater

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: amdhunter

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Hey Yankee fans... are you ready for it? Pettite and A-Fraud? Wait for it...

YOU TOOK STEROIDS

It doesn't matter if NY wins, they still have admitted cheaters on their team. It's still tainted.

Meh, you can't tell me more than half of the players on every professional sports team hasn't juiced at one time or another.

Another stupid New York fan, I take it? Funny how they all come out of the woodwork when it's a lock that they wouldn't choke like in 2004, aka BCOAT (Best Choke of All Time).

I can't wait for the chant in Philly.

Every championship since the early 90s (probably earlier) is tainted and to think otherwise is fucking stupid. These guys were juicing long before Palmeiro, Bonds, and Pettitte made it media-worthy. To single out the Yankees as the only team with question marks is blatant anti-fanboism.

Originally posted by: lupi
1988 Los Angeles Dodgers
1989 Oakland Athletics
1990 Cincinnati Reds
1991 Minnesota Twins
1992 Toronto Blue
1993 Toronto Blue
1995 Atlanta Braves
1996 New York Yankees
1997 Florida Marlins
1998 New York Yankees
1999 New York Yankees
2000 New York Yankees
2001 Arizona Diamondbacks
2002 Anaheim Angels
2003 Florida Marlins
2004 Boston Red Sox
2005 Chicago White Sox
2006 St. Louis Cardinals
2007 Boston Red
2008 Philadelphia Phillies




While baseball fanbois may talk about the impact of current rules on helping the "small markets" compete, and will even toss around some bogus stats on how many of them get into the playoffs, lets look at what really matters, the winners. over the last 20 years how many of these small market teams do you see in there, outside of the marlins that spend big one year to make it when they hit the lotto number on prospect selection and then sell off the team to cover those expenditures, you have to go back almost the entire 20 years till you get to any.

In another baseball thread here, I posted both the WS winners and losers and ranked them via payroll. The 90s were dominated by high payroll teams -- I believe only two teams won the WS who were not in the top 5 in payroll. Even the losing teams were relatively high up on the list. The 00s have been a little different, with only 1 #1 team winning the WS and many many more lower budget teams making the series.

The truth is that there needs to be better revenue sharing. I wouldn't be opposed to a salary cap, though I think better revenue sharing would benefit the league more. If revenue sharing was pegged to the average payroll in MLB and escalated as you exceeded that number, it would work fairly well. That being said, there need to be clauses to prevent teams (cough Florida Marlins cough cough) from simply pocketing the revenue sharing money most years -- the money you receive must be spent on baseball operations.

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

And what did the Yankees do in response to that? Spend more money and get people like CC. Teams like the Rays were quickly beaten down into 3rd place. And I am not sure the Rays 'Almost won it all'.. Didn't they lose 4-2 in the series? Or was it 4-1?

The Rays were a weird team this year. They were basically the unluckiest team in baseball this year and deviated so far from their pythag win projection that it's scary. Pretty much every metric that you can use to evaluate players and teams points to the Rays being a 90+ win team, except for actual wins.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them surge back into the AL East race next season.

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I have no doubt that both teams are great. Its just too bad that there's little chance small market teams will ever get the same opportunities. Thats what makes the NFL great. Green Bay is just as likely to win as the New York Football Giants.

While I agree that the NFL does a better job of sharing revenue (via the salary cap), I'm not so sure. While it's true that any given team can win, I get the impression from glancing over the past 20 years worth of data that the Super Bowl is a lot like the World Series. Plenty of teams have a shot of making it, but there are a consistent group of teams that make repeated appearances or make deep runs into the playoffs every year. I'm sure we could dig up some analysis on it, unfortunately I don't have the time to do any of that right now.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Every championship since the early 90s (probably earlier) is tainted and to think otherwise is fucking stupid. These guys were juicing long before Palmeiro, Bonds, and Pettitte made it media-worthy. To single out the Yankees as the only team with question marks is blatant anti-fanboism.

Testing is a much more stringent now, to say that the past couple of Champs were as tainted as the Juiceball era is blatant fantasyland. Nobody on the Phils had to have a press conference apologizing to Peter Gammons. To try and downplay Pettite and ARod's "apologies" = stupidity. They are two high profile players who admitted it so they deserve to be chastised. Get back to me when Howard, Utley, Victorino, or Ibanez issue boohoo apologies to Peter Gammons.

 

[SP33Demon]

If you look up some of my older posts from around 2003/2004 I showed that payroll pretty much ensures you'll make the playoffs*. From there, it's a flip of the coin.








*Disclaimer: Doesn't apply to the NY Mets. You will never beat the Phillies again, even if you surpass the Yankees in payroll. You may as well just start wearing Phillies gear.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Every championship since the early 90s (probably earlier) is tainted and to think otherwise is fucking stupid. These guys were juicing long before Palmeiro, Bonds, and Pettitte made it media-worthy. To single out the Yankees as the only team with question marks is blatant anti-fanboism.

Testing is a much more stringent now, to say that the past couple of Champs were as tainted as the Juiceball era is blatant fantasyland. Nobody on the Phils had to have a press conference apologizing to Peter Gammons. To try and downplay Pettite and ARod's "apologies" = stupidity. They are two high profile players who admitted it so they deserve to be chastised. Get back to me when Howard, Utley, Victorino, or Ibanez issue boohoo apologies to Peter Gammons.

I'm not saying we should treat every player like a criminal. There are guys who are no-brainers for never taking steroids and the majority of players, I believe, are clean. That being said, I hate when people throw up one team as a bunch of cheaters and ignore the fact that steroids were rampant throughout the 90s and 00s.

I have no interest in knocking down the Phillies or their players, but I also am not going to extend them any special treatment. They might be clean, they might not. I'm fine with that.

edit: While testing has most definitely become more stringent, I still do not believe we've fully left the steroid era, as evinced by Manny Ramirez this season. Sure, it's far less likely that the Phillies (or the Yankees) are currently using steroids than teams in the late 90s or early 00s, I don't think that they're completely free from the cloud either.

<edit2> My point is simply that it's dumb to say something like "The Yankees don't deserve to be in the World Series because of A-Rod or Pettitte." </edit2>

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
If you look up some of my older posts from around 2003/2004 I showed that payroll pretty much ensures you'll make the playoffs*. From there, it's a flip of the coin.

:thumbsup: I still question if MLB is truly that much less competitive than the NFL or the NBA. It's hard analysis to do because both of the latter leagues allow a much higher percentage of teams into the playoffs. Regardless, MLB needs some better form of revenue sharing or salary cap.

I'd disagree about it being a complete coin flip in the World Series. I was glancing over the winners and losers and ranking them by payroll for every WS since 1990. Once you make the series, I believe it's far more likely that the high payroll team wins.

 

[Fear No Evil]

I'd like to see more teams in the MLB playoffs. Of course you'd probably have to shorten the season to do that. But who the hell needs to play 160 regular season games. Opening up the playoffs will give good teams a chance to win it at least. Its stupid when teams with close to 90 wins can't make the playoffs because people like NYY just buy a team.

This about it this way, if Phily was in the AL East they would have finished in third place and not even been a wildcard. Thats not right.

 

[SP33Demon]

No, I agree with you, the Yanks shouldn't have it held against them now but it's fun to jeer them because of it. And when I say "tainted", I don't mean I think they're on it now, but that NY has employed known cheaters which takes a little sparkle off of their accomplishments. Pettitte has been known to lose his focus and it could definitely be used to Philly's advantage, who knows. ARod also has been known to lose focus too.

RE: Payroll, I think MLB is less competitive because of lack of a salary cap. It's always NY or Boston, when's the last time they didn't make the playoffs? A good barometer is the lower teams: When was the last time KC or the Nats/Expos made the playoffs? It's been awhile for even the midlevel teams like Baltimore/Toronto/Texas/Seattle.

 

[lupi]

Marlins do spend their money on baseball operations, it's just not spent on the major league level until they've won enough time in the prospect lottery to buy a couple free agents to push themselves over the top.

But revenue sha®ing in the end doesn't mean crap until they also have a hard salary cap.

 

[jalaram]

Originally posted by: lupi
Marlins do spend their money on baseball operations, it's just not spent on the major league level until they've won enough time in the prospect lottery to buy a couple free agents to push themselves over the top.

But revenue sha®ing in the end doesn't mean crap until they also have a hard salary cap.

It is still amazing how often they've done well and the talent they've drafted/developed.

Oh, yeah. New (and last) poll added.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
No, I agree with you, the Yanks shouldn't have it held against them now but it's fun to jeer them because of it. And when I say "tainted", I don't mean I think they're on it now, but that NY has employed known cheaters which takes a little sparkle off of their accomplishments. Pettitte has been known to lose his focus and it could definitely be used to Philly's advantage, who knows. ARod also has been known to lose focus too.

RE: Payroll, I think MLB is less competitive because of lack of a salary cap. It's always NY or Boston, when's the last time they didn't make the playoffs? A good barometer is the lower teams: When was the last time KC or the Nats/Expos made the playoffs? It's been awhile for even the midlevel teams like Baltimore/Toronto/Texas/Seattle.

I'd just like to preface this post by saying that I'm not defending the current MLB system. I've already stated my preference for better revenue sharing. MLB also needs to fix or replace the draft. I think, however, that MLB gets railed on a little unfairly for competitiveness (this is just a feeling, like I said, I haven't really done the numbers).

The top teams are always there, that's a given. I think that's relatively true in other sports too. The NFL has a small number of teams that are consistent in their playoff appearances -- Patriots, Colts, Ravens, Eagles, Steelers come to mind very fast.

There are a host of MLB teams that haven't sniffed the playoffs in years -- Nats / Expos, Reds, KC, Baltimore and many of those teams will continue to struggle because they play in good divisions, but we can say the same of the NFL. There are teams with substantial droughts like Texans, Saints, Browns, Bills. Granted those are shorter than their MLB counterparts, so maybe there is a point to be made there.

Looking at the list of longest championship droughts for both leagues is interesting:
NFL droughts
MLB droughts

Here's what strikes me about that list. First, there are a lot of teams in the NFL that haven't won in a very long time. Second, a lot of those teams have actually been fairly competitive over the last fifteen years. Teams like Arizona, Buffalo, the Eagles, Titans, Chargers have actually been close or made it and lost. That definitely isn't true for the cellar dwellers in MLB.

There's no doubt that MLB needs reforms, however I also wonder how much the smaller playoffs make a difference to chances for smaller money teams.

Sorry for this post becoming so disjointed, I suddenly got very busy. I'm just throwing data out there, curious to here what you have to say.