Official Phenom 2 Review Thread

[Raqia]

Bulldozer isn't scheduled to appear until '11 so I'm wondering what AMD is going to do in the mean time... maybe ride on the PII's coattails for the rest of the year? They have some room for improvement w/ the AM3 platform and a high-k transition in manufacturing might yield some higher clocks later this year.

Istanbul should give them more cores, quad channel memory, and some IPC enhancements but there's no word of a desktop derivative.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Raqia
Bulldozer isn't scheduled to appear until '11 so I'm wondering what AMD is going to do in the mean time... maybe ride on the PII's coattails for the rest of the year? They have some room for improvement w/ the AM3 platform and a high-k transition in manufacturing might yield some higher clocks later this year.

Istanbul should give them more cores, quad channel memory, and some IPC enhancements but there's no word of a desktop derivative.

Is the HK/MG option still being pursued by AMD for 45nm? Its been almost a year now since they made a big deal out of the prospects of a second release for 45nm involving HK/MG...but ever since then (was June timeframe last year) they have dropped all references to it at 45nm.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: SickBeast
There's nothing wrong with people saying that the Phenom 2 can compete with the i7 chips at a higher clockspeed. If the P2 can run at a higher clock, then great. It's not AMD's fault if the i7 can't hit 3.8ghz, and loses to a highly clocked P2 as a result.

Are you saying that you would complain if your $200 Phenom 2 could beat a $450 i7 after a simple overclock? I wouldn't.

no but a i7 after a simple overclock would wipe the floor on the PHII

this is what were trying to get at.

Can we just accept it? I7 is the TOP, there is no guy looking to tip the ladder on intel.

How come you guys just cant understand that?


There is no i7 comparision. Its like the cayotee vs road runner. No matter how far the cayotee thinks he is, the road runner is BEEP BEEP ahead.

PHII was after yorkfield. NOT BLOOMFIELD.
And GAINESTOWN.... oh boy... what do you think AMD has in prep of a 16 thread 8 core monster that out produces Intels current 16core Harpertown packages?

^ sorry.... AMD lost this one and not by a small margin either.

If you have a current AM2+ setup, then yes this chip will rock your world. Its a nice chip, and it will take you to where the yorkfield people have been dancing on.

If your looking to get this chip because you thought it was the fastest, umm... maybe next decade you'll get lucky with amd.

my friends who reviewed the chip even said in a non bais tone, its nice for the AM2+ people.
For us XS people, get an i7.

See, I think everytime some of you see the PhII mentioned in the same paragraph as I7 you're taking it as it is a comparrison of the two. Really, I think when a reviewer makes mention of PhII to I7 it's more of a compliment of the PhII, saying in some respects it can even match Intels top of the line. When you look at where AMD was with the original Phenom and it's pretty rough growing pains to the PhII that is now at least competitive with much of Intel's offerings I think these reviewers are just trying to point out how solid PhII is. PhII is not meant to compete with I7. It is not priced to compete with I7. But it's performance might approach I7 performance in a handful of benches, and I think reviewers are just trying to compliment the PhII, not directly compare it to I7.

I've seen benches where a $125 Radeon 4850 beats a GTX260 216 core. They are not competitors and are not in the same class. But to mention that with some tweaking and the right game your much cheaper card can approach a more expensive card really isn't misleading to me. I guess I don't see why everyone is getting their panties up in a bunch over it.

 

[aigomorla]

spider read sicks comment:

"There's nothing wrong with people saying that the Phenom 2 can compete with the i7 chips at a higher clockspeed. If the P2 can run at a higher clock, then great. "

Thats the thing.. why are you comparing it with i7?

Yorkfield isnt dead yet, and Yorkfield is its competition.

Im just trying to equalize the playing field here.

If you throw i7 in the mix, the cost and budget isnt an equal playing field.
You can almost buy 2 PHII systems for 1 i7 System.

That really isnt fair.

 

[Goty]

I think people are also missing the point that i7 is currently still a halo product and won't be Intel's mainstream product until late this year.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Goty
I think people are also missing the point that i7 is currently still a halo product and won't be Intel's mainstream product until late this year.

That's why I think that it's so impressive that the P2 can beat it overclocked.

I doubt there's much overclocking headroom for the i7 extreme 465 anyway.

Also keep in mind that the Phenom 2 is running DDR2 ram vs. DDR3 on the i7 and many of the C2Qs.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I doubt there's much overclocking headroom for the i7 extreme 465 anyway.

Also keep in mind that the Phenom 2 is running DDR2 ram vs. DDR3 on the i7 and many of the C2Qs.

4.0-4.5ghz on i7 965 on water not much overclocking headroom?

*sigh*

@ 4 ghz do you know how rediculously fast an i7 is? *BEEP BEEP to the MAX*

Do you even have an i7 or a PHII? because you seem to be talking like you do have one.

There is no phsysical way besides BUDGET a PHII will ever chase after an i7.

 

[sandorski]

It's been many years since I've really paid attention to Processors and the going's on between AMD/Intel. 3 years back I bought my current X2 3800, X2 was just the way to go then, albeit I'm a diehard AMD fan and would have bought the original Phenom Issues or not. It's nice to hear that AMD is once again Competitive, though. Perhaps Phenom Quads will become Uber-Cheap and I'll pick one up, but the way things are going PII's will be Uber-Cheap and PIII will be the new AMD Processor. My X2 3800 is still meeting my needs, so an Upgrade doesn't really weigh heavily except for Video Card.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I doubt there's much overclocking headroom for the i7 extreme 465 anyway.

Also keep in mind that the Phenom 2 is running DDR2 ram vs. DDR3 on the i7 and many of the C2Qs.

4.0-4.5ghz on i7 965 on water not much overclocking headroom?

*sigh*

@ 4 ghz do you know how rediculously fast an i7 is? *BEEP BEEP to the MAX*

Do you even have an i7 or a PHII? because you seem to be talking like you do have one.

There is no phsysical way besides BUDGET a PHII will ever chase after an i7.

I do have a budget as I do not earn a great deal of money (yet).

If I had money to burn, sure, I would have fun with an i7 and perhaps even some high-end watercooling just so that I could be the king of the digital castle.

I'm sure a 4ghz i7 is nuts in terms of speed. It's also nuts in terms of money unless you've got a fair bit of disposable income dedicated to computer hardware. I jumped off that boat when I switched careers, had a family, and decided that my priorities lie elsewhere.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
spider read sicks comment:

"There's nothing wrong with people saying that the Phenom 2 can compete with the i7 chips at a higher clockspeed. If the P2 can run at a higher clock, then great. "

Thats the thing.. why are you comparing it with i7?

Yorkfield isnt dead yet, and Yorkfield is its competition.

Im just trying to equalize the playing field here.

If you throw i7 in the mix, the cost and budget isnt an equal playing field.
You can almost buy 2 PHII systems for 1 i7 System.

That really isnt fair.

Fair enough. I still think it was meant as more of a compliment in the way you could say Yorkfield can compete to a degree. Even though AMD has closed the gap somewhat, Intel still obviously holds an IPC advantage. And my guess is that I7 can hit the same clock speeds as PhII (being upper 3GHz/lower 4GHz range) in 'normal' situations. Obviously that gives I7 the performance advantage. Of course you pay for that advantage, but if you want THE fastest then I7 is it. I agree with you, they aren't meant to compete. AMD knows this and so does Intel. PhII's big accomplishment for AMD is that they have 45nm out the door, it looks like they're doing much better with 45nm then they ever could manage with 65nm, and they can charge a reasonable price for it to make money.

It's a good option for someone like me with an AM2+ board ,or someone ready to upgrade from their old s939/s478 system depending on their wants/needs/goals. PhII is at least worth looking at along with the Intel options. Notice I didn't say it's a good option for the overclocking enthusiast that wants the absolute fastest system money can buy. Nor can I see anyone with a s775 system making the move as they already have an equal to better platform.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to upgrading my platform in due time.

 

[Raqia]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Raqia
Bulldozer isn't scheduled to appear until '11 so I'm wondering what AMD is going to do in the mean time... maybe ride on the PII's coattails for the rest of the year? They have some room for improvement w/ the AM3 platform and a high-k transition in manufacturing might yield some higher clocks later this year.

Istanbul should give them more cores, quad channel memory, and some IPC enhancements but there's no word of a desktop derivative.

Is the HK/MG option still being pursued by AMD for 45nm? Its been almost a year now since they made a big deal out of the prospects of a second release for 45nm involving HK/MG...but ever since then (was June timeframe last year) they have dropped all references to it at 45nm.

From the analyst day slides, it seems like you're right, they're postponing that until the 32nm node. Maybe they'll just bin a few AM3 parts for a Deneb FX release later on this year. I speculate maybe they'll start at 3.4 ghz and 3.6 ghz.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: SickBeast
There's nothing wrong with people saying that the Phenom 2 can compete with the i7 chips at a higher clockspeed. If the P2 can run at a higher clock, then great. It's not AMD's fault if the i7 can't hit 3.8ghz, and loses to a highly clocked P2 as a result.

Are you saying that you would complain if your $200 Phenom 2 could beat a $450 i7 after a simple overclock? I wouldn't.

no but a i7 after a simple overclock would wipe the floor on the PHII

this is what were trying to get at.

Can we just accept it? I7 is the TOP, there is no guy looking to tip the ladder on intel.

How come you guys just cant understand that?


There is no i7 comparision. Its like the cayotee vs road runner. No matter how far the cayotee thinks he is, the road runner is BEEP BEEP ahead.

PHII was after yorkfield. NOT BLOOMFIELD.
And GAINESTOWN.... oh boy... what do you think AMD has in prep of a 16 thread 8 core monster that out produces Intels current 16core Harpertown packages?

^ sorry.... AMD lost this one and not by a small margin either.

If you have a current AM2+ setup, then yes this chip will rock your world. Its a nice chip, and it will take you to where the yorkfield people have been dancing on.

If your looking to get this chip because you thought it was the fastest, umm... maybe next decade you'll get lucky with amd.

my friends who reviewed the chip even said in a non bais tone, its nice for the AM2+ people.
For us XS people, get an i7.

BINGO! Also, pretty much every review shows a 3Ghz C2Q is faster than a PII at 3Ghz, so if you overclock the P2 to 3.8Ghz does that mean your C2Q can't as well? Of course it can, many have done so with great ease depending on their cooling setup. So faster is still faster after overclocking because they reach the same general levels from everything I've seen.

 

[ajaidevsingh]

Wow a lot of hate going around for both the processor camp's...ouch

As far as i7 goes its great at 3.6Ghz with a Ultra 120 "Not ultra expensive" and although i have reallly really not seen much difference in gaming as compared to a q6600@3Ghz but as do feel it lags less and its overall smoother gaming.

Now as per reviews most of them have come across 3750-3800 as the best stable OC so that means 150Mhz-200Mhz more than the i7 but i dont think that 200Mhz can make a dent on the encoding / decoding of video or music but in other things i think it can come close or equal it in several benchs.

I am particularly happy about the min FPS games and the performance in winrar which is higher than a C2Q and below an i7.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Wow a lot of hate going around for both the processor camp's...ouch

I agree.

When i want the absolute best the core i7 965 is the way to go.

When i go for good but not ultimate i prefer the Ph II.
Why, when i look at the combination of motherboard memory and processor, the Phenom II is a good choice. The MB's are not that expensive. Quality low latency DDR2 memory modules are cheap. You dont need an uber expensive powersupply. When comparing , the phenom II does rather well. When the price drops a little more i am truly interested, but compared the early adopter price is not too bad. When i also take a 4000 range gfx card from ati i can use it in crossfire with the onboard gfx . Or maybe ( i still have to see if this is possible) use the onboard gfx for physics simulation and use the seperate 4000 gfx card only for visual. When looking at everything combined it looks AMD finally starts to learn what Intel has been doing for years : Providing customers with a complete solution.
Good solid support chips to complement a good processor.
Gfx is still better with AMD but AMD really needs to integrate a MAC phy module in the southbridge. I think 14 usb ports is overkill. Especially as it seems the performance of the usb ports is still not that good. I rather have 8 ports and fast then 14 and slow.
But overall i think amd delivers a good complete solution. Good enough for me to start saving pennies.

 

[dennilfloss]

When i want the absolute best the core i7 965 is the way to go.

When I check what I can afford, I go for the Ph II.

 

[William Gaatjes]

You are right. :shocked:


No it is partially what i want to spend and partially what i use it for.
If i want the best of the best i also have to go for 3-sli gtx295 and the most expensive ddr3 modules. I find it overkill for my use. Although others around me would not mind having me purchase the best there is simply for playing games.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: William Gaatjes

Gfx is still better with AMD but AMD really needs to integrate a MAC phy module in the southbridge. I think 14 usb ports is overkill. Especially as it seems the performance of the usb ports is still not that good. I rather have 8 ports and fast then 14 and slow.
But overall i think amd delivers a good complete solution. Good enough for me to start saving pennies.

Your wish is AMD's command - the South Bridge 800

Initially they were shooting for Q1-09 but it looks more like late summer for a 790FX/SB800.

[rant]
It pieces me off sometime when tech is 'dribbled' out when more viable (and valuable) solutions are available. We'll have to go though a round of 790FX/SB750 mobos while we wait for SB800. [Sarcasm in Rant] I guess AMD has to make some money on SB750 before we get to The Next Big Thing ... [/Sarcasm in Rant]
[/Rant]

I guess it's not so bad ... SB800 will advance HT, PCIe and further improve phase timing giving a nice boost to the Phenom and overall platform - and AMD and OEMs certainly have to recoup their investments.

If the gov't took all of this over they wouldn't have to make money - LOL

 

[SlowSpyder]

Just be glad you're not stuck with a SB600 like me. I have a feeling this thing is going to hurt my overclocks. It seems like everyone and their brother can hit 3.0GHz on a Phenom 9850/9950. I see a few running around this site at 3.2-3.4GHz. My chip is solid at 2.8Ghz, makes it to Windows but won't complete benches at 2.9GHz, and hard locks as the Windows desktop loads at 3.0GHz regardless of voltage bumps (temps are in check). The SB600 is the first AMD product I have been truely disappointed with.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: Idontcare
As much as it insults our senses to read such a review I bet it insults the senses of AMD engineers even more. PhII is a good chip by the looks of the AT and THG reviews, but there is no need to hype it as a threat to i7 or full-cached yorkfields for the shill factor alone.

It still amazes me that a company can design/build a product as remarkable as PhII while operating in the business environment they have been under for the past decade. If anything it should shame a few Intel project managers for not having delivered even more than they have given the position of fiscal strength they have been operating from for the past decade. (although admittedly Intel did it with >50% GM's whereas AMD has been a non-profit entity for its operating lifetime)

PhII should not have even come close to yorkfield given the R&D $'s involved with the creation of these products...and yet there they are. To me that is simply amazing. Imagine if China or India had put a man on the moon 3-4 yrs after the USA did...sure the USA would have got there first but the real miracle was that much less fiscally endowed countries managed the same feat on nearly the same timeline.

The triumphs of the under-dog usually generates the human-interest story (see Anand's ATi human-interest story...everyone likes a good read on the biography of David, we care less about the trial and tribulations of Goliath)

Kind of like how the detroit 3 got overtaken despite all the odds ($, experience, business know-how, marketshare, etc) that Toyota should not have ever been able to challenge them globally.

I think Intel continues to be a fiscally prudent company as they only seem to be making a product that keeps the competition far enough behind that they don't have to make any updates for the time in between, but then not so good that they will be so ridiculously far ahead that it isn't a competition at all.

It's important to keep some reserve if need be and concentrate on profitability. Good enough and making tons of moola is the way to go...

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: coldpower27
I think Intel continues to be a fiscally prudent company as they only seem to be making a product that keeps the competition far enough behind that they don't have to make any updates for the time in between, but then not so good that they will be so ridiculously far ahead that it isn't a competition at all.

It's important to keep some reserve if need be and concentrate on profitability. Good enough and making tons of moola is the way to go...

Couldn't agree more. Intel has the art of doing business down to a science. Second only to Walmart in my book.

Yeah long gone are the days where we'd get a new higher-clocked SKU released every 3 months which would invariably bump down the prices on all prior existing SKU's. We get funky staggered price drops throughout the year now and new SKU's tend to be of the lower-clocked less-cache variety.

I loved the 90's when it came to the micro-iterative steps in the flagship SKU for both Intel and AMD. Right now you could buy an i7 965 and know that Intel isn't going to release a faster CPU for a good 10-11 months. Great for early adopters but the rest of consumers are very much a captive audience now. (hoping PhII changes that for at least the next 6 months)

Originally posted by: William Gaatjes

Wow a lot of hate going around for both the processor camp's...ouch

I agree.

It actually pleases me to see this. To me this is a compliment of how clean/self-moderated we actually are here in these AT CPU forums that all it takes is just a rather very minor amount of jaw-jocking over the AMDzone review plus some comments about i7 != PhII and folks in these forums are feeling like unfairness is coming into the thread.

Show me another forum on these intarwebz that has as clean and above-board discussions on the PhII reviews. Every other forum I visit those threads are full of vitriolic statements, true venom spewing from keyboards.

But to see that folks around here have come to expect so much more/better from the posters in these forums, so much so that what little "disagreement" exists in this thread is enough to compel folks to proclaim "there be haten here"...well that makes me a little bit proud of just how clean this forum is.

Go checkout the PhII review thread in XS News if you wants to see some real "haten by both sides". Take some pepto-bismol before you head over there.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: SickBeast
There's nothing wrong with people saying that the Phenom 2 can compete with the i7 chips at a higher clockspeed. If the P2 can run at a higher clock, then great. It's not AMD's fault if the i7 can't hit 3.8ghz, and loses to a highly clocked P2 as a result.

Are you saying that you would complain if your $200 Phenom 2 could beat a $450 i7 after a simple overclock? I wouldn't.

no but a i7 after a simple overclock would wipe the floor on the PHII

this is what were trying to get at.

Can we just accept it? I7 is the TOP, there is no guy looking to tip the ladder on intel.

How come you guys just cant understand that?


There is no i7 comparision. Its like the cayotee vs road runner. No matter how far the cayotee thinks he is, the road runner is BEEP BEEP ahead.

PHII was after yorkfield. NOT BLOOMFIELD.
And GAINESTOWN.... oh boy... what do you think AMD has in prep of a 16 thread 8 core monster that out produces Intels current 16core Harpertown packages?

^ sorry.... AMD lost this one and not by a small margin either.

If you have a current AM2+ setup, then yes this chip will rock your world. Its a nice chip, and it will take you to where the yorkfield people have been dancing on.

If your looking to get this chip because you thought it was the fastest, umm... maybe next decade you'll get lucky with amd.

my friends who reviewed the chip even said in a non bais tone, its nice for the AM2+ people.
For us XS people, get an i7.

If PhII is not meant to compare with i7 - as you have stated numerous times - then why are you saying that "AMD lost this one..."? PhII is successful competing with C2Q, as AMD intended.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

If PhII is not meant to compare with i7 - as you have stated numerous times - then why are you saying that "AMD lost this one..."? PhII is successful competing with C2Q, as AMD intended.

it lost if you want to compare it with a i7.

Its a GREAT competitor if you want to class it with yorkfield.

Read my previous post. I was telling people to STOP grouping it with i7, and put it with yorkfield for a more even playing ground.

If you want to talk about raw performance against an i7, how can you say AMD didnt lose?

 

[William Gaatjes]

It actually pleases me to see this. To me this is a compliment of how clean/self-moderated we actually are here in these AT CPU forums

I agree with you too that the level of communication here is up to par.
And there always will be people who feel the need to preach onto others with respect to architectures and chip builders
But sharing how much one enjoys his/her new system is always a fun read.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
it lost if you want to compare it with a i7.

Not saying this to fan any flames, but I am curious if a serious price/performance comparison has been done yet on PhII based system versus i7 based system? (stock and typical overclock levels)

I know some somewhat non-robust comparisons have been made in practically all reviews, but I was hoping there was a review out there that was less non-robust in this regard relative to all the others?

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: William Gaatjes

Wow a lot of hate going around for both the processor camp's...ouch

I agree.

When i want the absolute best the core i7 965 is the way to go.

When i go for good but not ultimate i prefer the Ph II.
Why, when i look at the combination of motherboard memory and processor, the Phenom II is a good choice. The MB's are not that expensive. Quality low latency DDR2 memory modules are cheap. You dont need an uber expensive powersupply. When comparing , the phenom II does rather well. When the price drops a little more i am truly interested, but compared the early adopter price is not too bad. When i also take a 4000 range gfx card from ati i can use it in crossfire with the onboard gfx . Or maybe ( i still have to see if this is possible) use the onboard gfx for physics simulation and use the seperate 4000 gfx card only for visual. When looking at everything combined it looks AMD finally starts to learn what Intel has been doing for years : Providing customers with a complete solution.
Good solid support chips to complement a good processor.
Gfx is still better with AMD but AMD really needs to integrate a MAC phy module in the southbridge. I think 14 usb ports is overkill. Especially as it seems the performance of the usb ports is still not that good. I rather have 8 ports and fast then 14 and slow.
But overall i think amd delivers a good complete solution. Good enough for me to start saving pennies.

Motherboard/memory is not badly priced for a C2Q either. It's only fair you compare that as well as a similarly clocked C2Q still beats the PII.