Official Playstation 5 thread

[SolidQ]

There's gonna be a lot of shouting going on at Sony HQ right about now.

I think they just test price before PS6

 

[SteveGrabowski]

There's gonna be a lot of shouting going on at Sony HQ right about now.

Only 76k likes out of 2 million views!

I think they are hiding the dislikes number

79k likes, 81k dislikes right now

 

[RPD]

I mean I have money to burn, but even I'm out on that price tag. Guess my kids will be PC gamers with this nonsense.

 

[jpiniero]

JFC it's $80? I thought that was supposed to be $50. So now $810 for the PS5 Pro, assuming the stand is still "only" $30.

If you remember, the difference was $100 originally.

I was ready to spend $700.

Ah, but it is... if you are willing to embrace the Adorably All Digital Future.

 

[jpiniero]

I think they just test price before PS6

PS6 is going to be more than this, I'd bet. Same with MS's console if they make another one.

Edit: Could very well be that Sony is trying to find out if a $699 console would work. If not, I have to think the PS6 will either be a very long time from now or a very small upgrade.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

PS6 is going to be more than this, I'd bet. Same with MS's console if they make another one.

Edit: Could very well be that Sony is trying to find out if a $699 console would work. If not, I have to think the PS6 will either be a very long time from now or a very small upgrade.

Hopefully it doesn't and this thing fails hard. To make $800 worth it they would have needed to upgrade the cpu pretty significantly and the gpu enough be able to hit that claimed 45% performance boost across the board vs it being a ceiling on this system.

 

[Mopetar]

Console games are largely GPU bound, so adding more transistors to the CPU isn't beneficial in most cases. Compared to the CPUs that previous generation consoles were using, a modern desktop-class x86 CPU is much more than developers are used to having.

Really the only downside is price. $800 if you want a disc drive? I do have to wonder if the recent economic situation in Japan as well as the colossal failure of Concord caused them to increase prices. The only other reason to price it that high is if they know supplies will be tight and scalpers will result in people paying $800 anyway.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Console games are largely GPU bound, so adding more transistors to the CPU isn't beneficial in most cases. Compared to the CPUs that previous generation consoles were using, a modern desktop-class x86 CPU is much more than developers are used to having.

Really the only downside is price. $800 if you want a disc drive? I do have to wonder if the recent economic situation in Japan as well as the colossal failure of Concord caused them to increase prices. The only other reason to price it that high is if they know supplies will be tight and scalpers will result in people paying $800 anyway.

There are some big games on the system that are still massively cpu bound even targeting 60 fps. With a $300 bump in price cpu and gpu weaknesses should have both been addressed IMO.

 

[jpiniero]

Really the only downside is price. $800 if you want a disc drive? I do have to wonder if the recent economic situation in Japan as well as the colossal failure of Concord caused them to increase prices. The only other reason to price it that high is if they know supplies will be tight and scalpers will result than people paying $800 anyway.

I was expecting it to be $599 without the drive. Since you do get a 2 TB drive instead of 1 (figure that's worth $50), it's basically $50 more than it "should be".

 

[jpiniero]

There are some big games on the system that are still massively cpu bound even targeting 60 fps. With a $300 bump in price cpu and gpu weaknesses should have both been addressed IMO.

I still sort of believe the reason they didn't was because of the Jaguar BC mode that the custom Zen 2 cores have.

Zen 4c should be pretty small so I doubt they are saving that much space.

Edit: Oh and it's $250 (being that the Slim Digital's MSRP is $449)

 

[Mahboi]

Thank you MLID, I would never have known without your clickbait.

 

[Mahboi]

I think they are hiding the dislikes number

It's honestly fine.
Not the price. But they knew fully well what they were doing: everyone expected $700 for the full thing and its effectively $800 (and even 920€ here).
They want to test the waters with a pro console that they know will sell less than the base one. Let them test.
Most of the malders were never going to buy anyway, this freaking mentality really irks me. "We gotta put dislikes in solidarity with Pro console buyers to send a message"
Message of what? "Us who were never going to buy are displeased about the price of something we wouldn't have bought anyway?" Reeks of "fight da power" manchild mentality, or something more low IQ political than that. You don't want the product, you don't buy it, you don't buy it, they lower prices or terminate the business. Either way, your wallet votes, not your girly shrieks online.

 

[Mahboi]

People who really really hate 30 fps?

(Course it might be Frame Generation mostly to get to 60 and not native)

I believe FSR FG still requires above 50 FPS to not get serious shimmering or visual problems. It works well to get your 50-60 FPS to 100-120, but would not work (plus horrible latency) from 30 to 60.
So nah, it's very likely full throttle FPS. We very likely will be seeing FG games though, and it'll be interesting to have a 100-120 FPS console game that actually feels smooth. Will def sell some TVs.

 

[jpiniero]

I believe FSR FG still requires above 50 FPS to not get serious shimmering or visual problems. It works well to get your 50-60 FPS to 100-120, but would not work (plus horrible latency) from 30 to 60.
So nah, it's very likely full throttle FPS. We very likely will be seeing FG games though, and it'll be interesting to have a 100-120 FPS console game that actually feels smooth. Will def sell some TVs.

I was thinking that maybe there's a FG component to PSSR.

 

[Mahboi]

That's best case scenario. Won't necessarily be realized in most games. At best it might be 30% increase on average. It will probably take studios two years minimum to understand how to squeeze the best performance out of PS5 Pro's GPU.

30% average seems unlikely, this isn't CPU. GPUs are all about raw throughput, ultimately if it's 45% top I'd say ~38% improvement is more likely.

And wouldn't you know, on the TPU relative perf DB, a 7700 XT is 42% better than a PS5's GPU.
I guess I did overestimate the performance they'd bring out. I was really expecting something inbetween a 7800 XT and 7700 XT, but the clocks are lot less than expected, 2.18Ghz is just low vs RDNA 3's general 2.5Ghz.
On the same relative list, the 7800 XT gets 172% the 6700's perf.

 

[Mahboi]

I was thinking that maybe there's a FG component to PSSR.

I'm 95% sure that we'll find out that PSSR is just a customised FSR with Sony AI models.
Also even for DLSS FG the same problem appears. They just didn't advertise it.

 

[Mahboi]

You guys know this is a luxury item right? And that they’re not discontinuing the OG PS5 at its original price point?

This 100%.
Stop malding like entitled children. The PS5 is the standard product, every game will run on it. You want your PS5 games to run at double the framerate or have nice RT effects? Pay up.

I did bother to make a PS5 and PS5 Pro equivalent PCs though, and I found this (it's from French Amazon so it's not science, just a decent test case)
Full AM4 PC with an RX 7600 (rx 6700 isn't sold anymore) and 5600X: 710€
Full AM4 PC with an RX 7700 XT and 5700X: 910€

The former is a sort of PS5 equivalent (6 core Zen 3 vs 8 core Zen 2) and the 7600 has roughly the 6700's price and perf.
The latter is a sort of PS5 Pro equivalent, just 8 core Zen 3 for boosted CPU clocks and GPU with more CUs and better arch.

PS5 PC is 710€ / 550€ for PS5: 29% more expensive
PS5 Pro PC is 910€ /800€ for PS5 Pro: 13.75% more expensive
At this price, you're just objectively much better off having a PC that can do so much more. Granted if you buy it fully made and not in parts, it's at least 20% more expensive. But even then it's just not a great price.

 

[Mahboi]

I really wonder how they arrived at that ridiculous 2.18Ghz GPU clock.
RDNA 3 was meant to run at 3Ghz. Obviously a console doesn't push that hard, but that's not even pushing, that's lazing around.
Hell even the PS5 original is at 2.23Ghz, and that's on 7nm RDNA 2. We're looking at N4P here.

I hope this isn't a semi-confirmation of what Kepler insinuated the other day about RDNA 4 being yet another failure that'll be borked in clocks.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

This 100%.
Stop malding like entitled children. The PS5 is the standard product, every game will run on it. You want your PS5 games to run at double the framerate or have nice RT effects? Pay up.

I did bother to make a PS5 and PS5 Pro equivalent PCs though, and I found this (it's from French Amazon so it's not science, just a decent test case)
Full AM4 PC with an RX 7600 (rx 6700 isn't sold anymore) and 5600X: 710€
Full AM4 PC with an RX 7700 XT and 5700X: 910€

The former is a sort of PS5 equivalent (6 core Zen 3 vs 8 core Zen 2) and the 7600 has roughly the 6700's price and perf.
The latter is a sort of PS5 Pro equivalent, just 8 core Zen 3 for boosted CPU clocks and GPU with more CUs and better arch.

PS5 PC is 710€ / 550€ for PS5: 29% more expensive
PS5 Pro PC is 910€ /800€ for PS5 Pro: 13.75% more expensive
At this price, you're just objectively much better off having a PC that can do so much more. Granted if you buy it fully made and not in parts, it's at least 20% more expensive. But even then it's just not a great price.

TIL disapproving of a product is being an entitled child

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I’ll probably buy one. Really not a lot of money for something that will get a thousand plus hours of use, and I don’t want to see 30fps again.

Guess I’m also in the minority with my launch Dualsense with 1000+ hours on it and no stick drift.

I have had two DualSense drift on me, which is insane since I mostly play RPGs so it's not like I'm making quick twitch movements. I have never had trouble with any other official controller other than the horrific Atari 5200 stick. The only other time I have gotten stick drift was on an XBox 360 controller, but that was because I was being a dumbass and tied a rubber band very taut to force the stick forward while I left my 360 on to train the sneak skill in Oblivion while I went to work on a 12 hour shift.

DualSense seems like it's designed to fail so they can get a recurrent revenue stream out of people buying controllers at $75 a pop. I liked their scam of creating a $200 DualSense Edge with replaceable sticks and then never having the stick replacements in stock too. DualSense is second only to Atari 5200 for worst official controller I have ever used.

 

[blckgrffn]

I really wonder how they arrived at that ridiculous 2.18Ghz GPU clock.
RDNA 3 was meant to run at 3Ghz. Obviously a console doesn't push that hard, but that's not even pushing, that's lazing around.
Hell even the PS5 original is at 2.23Ghz, and that's on 7nm RDNA 2. We're looking at N4P here.

I hope this isn't a semi-confirmation of what Kepler insinuated the other day about RDNA 4 being yet another failure that'll be borked in clocks.

They didn’t mention this, but does this Pro increase the power envelope? If it doesn’t, I think there is quite a bit of compromise to keep the power - and case size - the same or really similar. They need that for that bolt on drive, right?

Do we have the power brick information? I would think that’d be certified/public info by now and I’m just ignorant of it atm.

In any case, if that’s true they went wider but kept the clocks very similar to keep power consumption in check. Thats what I am going with, there isn’t that much RDNA4 in the chip.

 

[Mahboi]

They didn’t mention this, but does this Pro increase the power envelope? If it doesn’t, I think there is quite a bit of compromise to keep the power - and case size - the same or really similar. They need that for that bolt on drive, right?

Do we have the power brick information? I would think that’d be certified/public info by now and I’m just ignorant of it atm.

It's likely the exact same yep.
However it's also gone from N7 to N4P. Even if you boost CUs by 50% from 36 to 60, the node improvement should be almost 50% less power draw.
2.18Ghz is definitely not impressive. Also RDNA 3 CUs are smaller than RDNA 2 ones and are less power consuming. So either there's a strange thing going on, either the things that were added in RDNA 4 are not doing too good.

We need to light the great Leaker projector in the sky. More info is needed here.

 

[blckgrffn]

It's likely the exact same yep.
However it's also gone from N7 to N4P. Even if you boost CUs by 50% from 36 to 60, the node improvement should be almost 50% less power draw.
2.18Ghz is definitely not impressive. Also RDNA 3 CUs are smaller than RDNA 2 ones and are less power consuming. So either there's a strange thing going on, either the things that were added in RDNA 4 are not doing too good.
View attachment 107268
We need to light the great Leaker projector in the sky. More info is needed here.

I mean… the advertised improvement is 45% and they did clock the Zen 2 cores up modestly too. If you take just the power improvement of the node, you basically forfeit the performance uplift in my limited understanding. That and the performance on RT is up 100% to 200% in the same power envelope. That seems promising? In some aspects they got a linear improvement, others better than linear. No magic bullet here I guess.

I guess it doesn’t alarm me that much, especially on the RDNA4 front. They went wider instead of faster on the silicon, and bafflingly (IMO) didn’t implement a large LLC which has been used elsewhere in AMD products to extract phenomenal performance per watt, which seems like a prime goal when you are fixing the power footprint of the system.


So 350W at the wall, assuming it can deliver about 300W internally hot and under sustained load, I guess it becomes a question of cooling. It will be interesting g to see what peak loads will be, but let’s just say it can cool 200W and fit inside Sony’s expectations for NVH and life expectancy, it’s really hard to see (IMO) how as a package it could be a higher performing SOC based on what we know it to built out of. Faster RAM and the NPU both nibble on the power budget too…

 

[sze5003]

Haha GameStop also dropped their PS5 trade in values from what they used to be.

https://www.gamestop.com/trade/details/?pid=229025

 

[jpiniero]

It's likely the exact same yep.
However it's also gone from N7 to N4P. Even if you boost CUs by 50% from 36 to 60, the node improvement should be almost 50% less power draw.
2.18Ghz is definitely not impressive. Also RDNA 3 CUs are smaller than RDNA 2 ones and are less power consuming. So either there's a strange thing going on, either the things that were added in RDNA 4 are not doing too good

The 7800M which was just formally announced has an official game clock of 2145 Mhz. Says the TBP is 180 W. Same 60 CUs.

I am guessing the Pro is intended to be about 200 or so W at the wall like the Slim is.