Official Presidential Debate #2 thread

[chess9]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Sullivan's analysis:

This was, I think, a mauling: a devastating and possibly electorally fatal debate for McCain. Even on Russia, he sounded a little out of it. I've watched a lot of debates and participated in many. I love debate and was trained as a boy in the British system to be a debater. I debated dozens of times at Oxford. All I can say is that, simply on terms of substance, clarity, empathy, style and authority, this has not just been an Obama victory. It has been a wipe-out.It has been about as big a wipe-out as I can remember in a presidential debate. It reminds me of the 1992 Clinton-Perot-Bush debate. I don't really see how the McCain campaign survives this.

While I generally agree, I think McCain made a few good points. This debate isn't a step forward for McCain, however. He barely held his own on substance, and as for style? What style? Totally lacking in Presidential character. He couldn't play a President in a film...and Obama could.

-Robert

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Sullivan's analysis:

This was, I think, a mauling: a devastating and possibly electorally fatal debate for McCain. Even on Russia, he sounded a little out of it. I've watched a lot of debates and participated in many. I love debate and was trained as a boy in the British system to be a debater. I debated dozens of times at Oxford. All I can say is that, simply on terms of substance, clarity, empathy, style and authority, this has not just been an Obama victory. It has been a wipe-out.It has been about as big a wipe-out as I can remember in a presidential debate. It reminds me of the 1992 Clinton-Perot-Bush debate. I don't really see how the McCain campaign survives this.

While I generally agree, I think McCain made a few good points. This debate isn't a step forward for McCain, however. He barely held his own on substance, and as for style? What style? Totally lacking in Presidential character. He couldn't play a President in a film...and Obama could.

-Robert

Yeah, it would be hard to disagree with this. Obama excelled on the economic related ?'s, and McCain did best on the FP ?'s, but I do think Obama did well enough, at least better than McCain did on economic.
But overall, Obama just looked more presidential, and McCain often looked petty and small with all the rude little clips. "That one" was one, but also another huge one was after Obama was finishing a healthcare question (was HC a right?) and his mother's cancer, and McCain flung out "did he say what the fine would be?! hehe"
Just looked douchy and unpresidential.

 

[Mursilis]

I like this analysis. Both candidates avoided offending voters with the truth. Both were busy selling the political version of the "eat all you want and still lose weight" diet, and all the suckers were buying it. A quote:

Rather than talking about sacrifices, the candidates got into their most spirited exchanges while trying to outdo each other in proving that he would be the most aggressive and committed in cutting taxes for most households.

It's just bread and circuses at this point.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Perknose
I think many here are misunderstanding that handshake thing. IIRC, Obama and McCain shook hands at the actual end of the debate just before Brokaw asked them to stop blocking his teleprompter. I think I saw a still of that.

What happened in the "no handshake" clip, I think, is that McCain tapped Obama on the shoulder to get him to shake hands with Cindy, so that when Obama turned around to shake, McCain then simply redirected him to Cindy, which was the reason he tapped Obama on the shoulder from behind in the first place.

That's was my take as well. McCain is a dick, but this was not quite an example of his dickitude.

 

[Lemon law]

I almost feel sorry for McCain, who has been running for President since 2000. As we all know, GWB slimed McCain out of the race in 2000, and has been playing McCain like a cheap fiddle ever since.

Meanwhile, McCain has kept himself in the public eye by trying to play the part of the conscience of the GOP, while a consenting press has granted him a better national soap box than it gave Hillary.

And finally, 2008 was supposed to be McCain's year. And he announced a Presidential run early and has been running since 2006. And what an emotional roller coaster ride in has been for McCain. Because McCain had been so critical of GWB, the GOP establishment support of McCain was next to nothing and his fund raising efforts showed it. But John McCain got a big break when no solid GOP moderate ran and the rest of the GOP field, other than the inconsequential Ron Paul, all competed with each other for the far to the right vote. Which allowed McCain to poll high enough numbers to be in the pack while his rivals cannibalized themselves. And then McCain got another break when Giulliana's wait until Florida strategy imploded and he was then forced to drop. Leaving it a three man race between Romney, Huckabee, and McCain. And McCain got another big break as he formed an advantageous alliance with Huckabee. As the better self funded Romney tried to buy the votes of the religious right, only to discover that the heart and the votes of the religious right belonged to Huckabee, because Romney was a reinvented phony and the starved for funding Huckabee was the religious right genuine article. Finally tired of throwing good money after bad, Romney dropped, and after half trying to play the spoiler role, Huckabee dropped when McCain mathematically clinched the nomination. Nor should we fail to note, that while the GOP leadership basically lost their collective minds, the GOP electorate realized that they needed a solid candidate like McCain.

And while the dems were killing each other in a bitterly contested primary fight between Obama and Hillary, McCain could and did revel in getting a prize long denied him, namely the GOP nomination.

Having reached that mountain top, IMHO, the McCain bad karma and inexperience did him in. And the one deficiency in the McCain record became apparent. Because McCain had never commanded or led anything bigger than the plane he flew. In April/08 he had to hit the ground running and start asserting his leadership of the GOP, grabbing top GOP talent, and the reins of GOP fund raising. Then go back to the Senate and establish himself as the Senator who could break Washington gridlock, kicking GWB to the curb if need be. And when McCain instead rested, he was stuck with his own team of all lobbyists, and he never was able to get the GOP leadership behind him. Leaving him in the worst of all worlds, seen as in bed with GWB McSame, while the GOP leadership looks at him as not one of their own. The Palin pick looked initially brilliant, but her red raw meat appeal is counterbalanced by her appalling hockey mom ignorance and sleaze politics. And then McCain has the bad Karma to have GWB lay a giant egg in the form of almost collapsing the world economy. Nor could McCain in any way capitalize on the event as he and Obama were non factors in the bail out.

Now all Obama has to do is play rope a dope for the last four weeks, and he will win easily. But I do feel sorry for McCain, after patiently waiting at a red light for eight years, and then getting nothing but green lights
all the way to election, is staring at the final hurdle he cannot jump.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: conehead433

Originally posted by: daveymark
what was mccain talking about with obama's projector?

$3 mil for a Planetarium in Chicago. Probably not just for a projector. Planetariums are cool. There are far worst ways to spend the people's money.

It's not a normal projector...it's one of those huge "Star Projectors" that can recreate all of the visible stars in the sky at any given moment across a hemisphere screen.
They have one at Griffith Observatory as well, and it's considered one of the best Astronomy learning tools there is!

I caught that too, and the way mccain played it off, he portrayed it as if it was an LCD projector to show powerpoint presentations.
It's a tool to help educate and illuminate people interested in astronomy, I guess learning is bad.
Here's that 'projector'
Adler projector

 

[Xavier434]

By the end of the debate, I would say that both candidates had their strong and weak points but the bottom line here is that McCain needed a major tidal wave of a win and that didn't happen. There is no doubt that he was the winner when it came to a few specific points but the amount that he won by in each and every instance was not substantial and he did not win overall by any means. Obama managed to hold his ground very well throughout the debate and even during his weakest moments he was not that terrible.

I believe that any support which McCain gets out of this debate will not sustain itself for long. I believe that the continuous bombardment of media stories regarding the crumbling economy over the next week alone will be enough to make voters that are straddling the fence forget any positive and motivating thoughts they may have acquired towards McCain as a result of this debate. However, I believe that a larger amount of additional support that Obama earned himself will remain because it goes hand in hand with the majority of people's problems and priorities right now.

The reactions of people both today and tomorrow will be interesting, but what will be even more interesting is their reactions 7-10 days from now.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I almost feel sorry for McCain, who has been running for President since 2000. As we all know, GWB slimed McCain out of the race in 2000, and has been playing McCain like a cheap fiddle ever since.

Meanwhile, McCain has kept himself in the public eye by trying to play the part of the conscience of the GOP, while a consenting press has granted him a better national soap box than it gave Hillary.

And finally, 2008 was supposed to be McCain's year. And he announced a Presidential run early and has been running since 2006. And what an emotional roller coaster ride in has been for McCain. Because McCain had been so critical of GWB, the GOP establishment support of McCain was next to nothing and his fund raising efforts showed it. But John McCain got a big break when no solid GOP moderate ran and the rest of the GOP field, other than the inconsequential Ron Paul, all competed with each other for the far to the right vote. Which allowed McCain to poll high enough numbers to be in the pack while his rivals cannibalized themselves. And then McCain got another break when Giulliana's wait until Florida strategy imploded and he was then forced to drop. Leaving it a three man race between Romney, Huckabee, and McCain. And McCain got another big break as he formed an advantageous alliance with Huckabee. As the better self funded Romney tried to buy the votes of the religious right, only to discover that the heart and the votes of the religious right belonged to Huckabee, because Romney was a reinvented phony and the starved for funding Huckabee was the religious right genuine article. Finally tired of throwing good money after bad, Romney dropped, and after half trying to play the spoiler role, Huckabee dropped when McCain mathematically clinched the nomination. Nor should we fail to note, that while the GOP leadership basically lost their collective minds, the GOP electorate realized that they needed a solid candidate like McCain.

And while the dems were killing each other in a bitterly contested primary fight between Obama and Hillary, McCain could and did revel in getting a prize long denied him, namely the GOP nomination.

Having reached that mountain top, IMHO, the McCain bad karma and inexperience did him in. And the one deficiency in the McCain record became apparent. Because McCain had never commanded or led anything bigger than the plane he flew. In April/08 he had to hit the ground running and start asserting his leadership of the GOP, grabbing top GOP talent, and the reins of GOP fund raising. Then go back to the Senate and establish himself as the Senator who could break Washington gridlock, kicking GWB to the curb if need be. And when McCain instead rested, he was stuck with his own team of all lobbyists, and he never was able to get the GOP leadership behind him. Leaving him in the worst of all worlds, seen as in bed with GWB McSame, while the GOP leadership looks at him as not one of their own. The Palin pick looked initially brilliant, but her red raw meat appeal is counterbalanced by her appalling hockey mom ignorance and sleaze politics. And then McCain has the bad Karma to have GWB lay a giant egg in the form of almost collapsing the world economy. Nor could McCain in any way capitalize on the event as he and Obama were non factors in the bail out.

Now all Obama has to do is play rope a dope for the last four weeks, and he will win easily. But I do feel sorry for McCain, after patiently waiting at a red light for eight years, and then getting nothing but green lights
all the way to election, is staring at the final hurdle he cannot jump.

Nice story, but you forgot to mention that Bush basically put the odds out of reach with the worst 8 years of any president. Ever. McCain would have needed a miracle to win, but for all the reasons you listed above he fails. Is it bad luck? Some, yes. But most of it is that bad karma you mentioned. Bad karma that was self created because he has a surly, arrogantly impetuous and condescending personality which is a major turnoff. This is in conjunction with an extremely sordid past: Keating 5, voting against MLK Day, adultery while in the military which risked expulsion, crashing planes (blamed 2 of them on "engine stalling" yeah right), a wife who was addicted to drugs, no respect of his Hanoi prisoner peers but acting like a hero, horrible academic performance, etc. Last but not least, he's flip-flopping on deregulation because it's convenient but he isn't fooling anyone. He will do and say anything to the American people to get them to vote for him, but he doesn't hide it well.

Like you said, I agree that he's been patiently waiting at the red light for years. But what he doesn't realize is that his engine is about to seize up after 500,000 miles of abuse on the engine.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: conehead433

Originally posted by: daveymark
what was mccain talking about with obama's projector?

$3 mil for a Planetarium in Chicago. Probably not just for a projector. Planetariums are cool. There are far worst ways to spend the people's money.

It's not a normal projector...it's one of those huge "Star Projectors" that can recreate all of the visible stars in the sky at any given moment across a hemisphere screen.
They have one at Griffith Observatory as well, and it's considered one of the best Astronomy learning tools there is!

I caught that too, and the way mccain played it off, he portrayed it as if it was an LCD projector to show powerpoint presentations.
It's a tool to help educate and illuminate people interested in astronomy, I guess learning is bad.
Here's that 'projector'
Adler projector

Many thanks for that, mate...I haven't seen a Zeiss planetarium projector since I was a kid.

 

[JJChicken]

I must say the debate was a wash

 

[MikeyLSU]

I think I have finally come to the conclusion that this race is over. I don't think McCain can come back.

So I think the Dems will take control and we will have to live through 4 years of it and when the economy is not fully fixed they will get blamed. Will be a nice change, because the president has very little to do with the economy, but since everyone likes to blame bush and the repubs for this mess, I hope when things are messed up with Dem control, they get the same treatment.

 

[chess9]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10.../08dowd.html?th&emc=th

"John McCain has long been torn between wanting to succeed and serving a higher cause. Right now, the drive to succeed is trumping any loftier aspirations. He cynically picked a running mate with less care than theater directors give to picking a leading actor?s understudy. And he has been running a seamy campaign originally designed by the bad seed of conservative politics, Lee Atwater.

It was adapted in 2000 in Atwater?s home state of South Carolina by Atwater acolytes in W.?s camp to harpoon McCain with rumors that he had fathered out of wedlock a black baby (as opposed to adopting a Bangladeshi infant girl in wedlock). Sulfurous Atwater-style rumor-mongering by Bush supporters ? that McCain had come home from a Hanoi tiger cage with snakes in his head ? aimed to stop him during that primary after he had zoomed in New Hampshire.

Atwater relished teaching rich, white Republicans to feign a connection to the common man so they could get in office and economically undermine the common man. In the 1988 campaign, the Machiavellian ran to help George Bush Sr. defeat Michael Dukakis with this unholy quintet of charges:

The Democrat was a ?60s-style liberal who would raise taxes and take away guns. He was weak and would not protect the country militarily. He was a member of the elite ?Harvard Yard?s boutique.? He had a foreign-sounding name and was not on ?the American side.? He was on the side of the Scary Black Man.

Sound familiar?"

The racism of the McCain candidacy is palpable.

-Robert

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
The sheer contempt Mccain has showed these past few debates is digraceful. During the first debate, he didn't look at Obama once. I just finished watching the second debate and I COULDN'T BELIEVE what saw at the end.

Obama walks over to Mccain smiling...They are 2 feet apart looking each other directly in the eye...Obama extends his right hand and Mccain STEPS BACK refusing to take it. He walked out of the hall without shaking Obama's hand..

Honestly..WTF?! What does that say about Mccain's character? I consider the demeanor and attitude of a president is very important. If there were a candidate I agreed with 100% that acted the way Mccain did tonight, I would not be able to vote for them.

What it says is that he can't believe this little punk is beating his ass. He's mad about it... really mad.

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. It's quite possible McCain didn't even see the extended arm of Obama, as he looked distracted by an audience member. Also, look at the contempt on Obama's face? Shall we draw a bunch of ridiculous conclusions from that as well as the fact that Obama was first to walk away and Michelle didn't even acknowledge the McCains as Obama shuffles her away?

These are all stupid, juvenile topics of discussion.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Craig234
McCain showing no class pointed him to his wife (the 'C***')

For posterity's sake...

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Perknose
I think many here are misunderstanding that handshake thing. IIRC, Obama and McCain shook hands at the actual end of the debate just before Brokaw asked them to stop blocking his teleprompter. I think I saw a still of that.

What happened in the "no handshake" clip, I think, is that McCain tapped Obama on the shoulder to get him to shake hands with Cindy, so that when Obama turned around to shake, McCain then simply redirected him to Cindy, which was the reason he tapped Obama on the shoulder from behind in the first place.

Finally - a non-opportunistic Dem offering a voice of reason.

I love how all these people see a quick blip of editing - sans sound - and declare the dismantling of the Republican Party as a result.

Just wow.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
McCain is DONE. Say good bye Republicans. Your rule is OVER. Your party will be DISMANTLED. You will not come close to the White House for the next 8 years.

I certainly hope so, these neo-cons suck, and have subverted their party. I'd like to see the Republican party stop devolving. I'd also like to see at least 2 other major political parties emerge as well. If Obama pooches it too, perhaps enough people will become disenchanted with both parties, to migrate to another, or form a new one. Yeah, I know, magic 8 ball says, "outlook not good".

Originally posted by: bozack
Woah, Michelle Obama is scary looking

Compared to Babs Bush, she is a hottie.

Originally posted by: techs
If he had a heart attack, would Palin become the GOP's candidate?
Nah. There's another Bush tan, rested and ready.
Jeb in '08.

After the debacle that has been his brother's administration, his last name alone dooms him. No, I get this feeling Romney will be back, hopefully that's just gas.

Originally posted by: winnar111
Doubt it. Obama has picked up a lot of votes over the past couple weeks. Some of them could change their minds back.

I don't think it is so much "changing minds back" as getting undecideds off the fence, and I don't see many of those jumping over the fence without a major late breaking Obama scandal.

I kept switching between MSNBC and Fox, and it was odd to see K.O. acting like his Fox nemesis B.O., while Greta kept pushing Mac's spokesman to announce some campaign tactic more effective than the relatively subdued stuff he was iterating. She seemed to see the writting on the wall, and wanted to hear some hardcore Rovian warfare talk, about how they would take the kid gloves off, and really get nasty now.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: Perknose
I think many here are misunderstanding that handshake thing. IIRC, Obama and McCain shook hands at the actual end of the debate just before Brokaw asked them to stop blocking his teleprompter. I think I saw a still of that.

What happened in the "no handshake" clip, I think, is that McCain tapped Obama on the shoulder to get him to shake hands with Cindy, so that when Obama turned around to shake, McCain then simply redirected him to Cindy, which was the reason he tapped Obama on the shoulder from behind in the first place.

Finally - a non-opportunistic Dem offering a voice of reason.

I love how all these people see a quick blip of editing - sans sound - and declare the dismantling of the Republican Party as a result.

Just wow.

The hand shake is easy at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to the importance of last night anyways. Seriously folks...we have much bigger fish to fry here.

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Perknose
I think many here are misunderstanding that handshake thing. IIRC, Obama and McCain shook hands at the actual end of the debate just before Brokaw asked them to stop blocking his teleprompter. I think I saw a still of that.

What happened in the "no handshake" clip, I think, is that McCain tapped Obama on the shoulder to get him to shake hands with Cindy, so that when Obama turned around to shake, McCain then simply redirected him to Cindy, which was the reason he tapped Obama on the shoulder from behind in the first place.

That's was my take as well. McCain is a dick, but this was not quite an example of his dickitude.

Perhaps. I was watching it on CSPAN (highly reccommended, no commentators, no commericials and they keep the cameras running before and after) and my first impression was McCain snubbed Obama and Obama covered the gaffe nicely by shaking Mrs. McCain's hand, but it seemed like a really bizarre incident. Maybe too much is being made of it. One thing I don't think anyone brought up is that McCain and his wife cleared out seconds after that handshake (maybe a minute after the debate ended) leaving Obama and his wife alone in front of the cameras to mingle with the audience for many minutes thereafter. Why in the world would he make that blunder? My wife was speculating maybe McCain was sick or something.

I saw Brokaw interviewed this morning. He said Mrs. Obama came up to him a couple of minutes after the McCains left and asked Brokaw if they were supposed to leave. His response was no rules or agreement on that that I know.

I think McCain has a deep personal hatred of Obama that he does a very poor job of concealing. Think how he'd do in negotiations with someone like Putin-they would play him like a fiddle.

 

[Capitalizt]

Originally posted by: Thump553

I think McCain has a deep personal hatred of Obama that he does a very poor job of concealing. Think how he'd do in negotiations with someone like Putin-they would play him like a fiddle.

This is my thought too. I think it provides a startling insight into the way Mccain will treat those he disagrees with once he is in power...He sees those with different beliefs as enemies.. They deserve no diplomacy..no respect...no common ground...just the cold shoulder and battle tactics.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Thump553
[on Handshakegate and McCain leaving early]

Why in the world would he make that blunder? My wife was speculating maybe McCain was sick or something.

I think this is probably accurate. There was a point in the debate when I turned to my wife and asked her if it looked like McCain was having a TIA.

He did not look well during one of his responses. While walking around, he became short of breath and appeared to need to lean on something. He struggled to finish and then went back to his seat.

Once seated, he appeared fine.

He was either sick, having heartburn, or having a stroke.

Originally posted by: Thump553
I think McCain has a deep personal hatred of Obama that he does a very poor job of concealing. Think how he'd do in negotiations with someone like Putin-they would play him like a fiddle.

I don't know that I'd classify it as deep personal hatred, but certainly contempt. Consider how people here treat each other simply because there's a difference of ideas? The name calling, questioning of each other's intelligence, aptitude, intentions, etc.

McCain, from time to time, displays the same juvenile behavior. Honestly, John Kerry pulled the same condescending crap (which was excused by the same people calling out McCain - Bush was an idiot, so it was justified), and it hurt him.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Originally posted by: Thump553

I think McCain has a deep personal hatred of Obama that he does a very poor job of concealing. Think how he'd do in negotiations with someone like Putin-they would play him like a fiddle.

This is my thought too. I think it provides a startling insight into the way Mccain will treat those he disagrees with once he is in power...He sees those with different beliefs as enemies.. They deserve no diplomacy..no respect...no common ground...just the cold shoulder and battle tactics.

cold shoulder?

McCain and Obama shook hands at the end of the debate. it was pretty clear and obvious.

later, Obama and Cindy McCain shook hands.

what's the big deal here?

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Originally posted by: Thump553

I think McCain has a deep personal hatred of Obama that he does a very poor job of concealing. Think how he'd do in negotiations with someone like Putin-they would play him like a fiddle.

This is my thought too. I think it provides a startling insight into the way Mccain will treat those he disagrees with once he is in power...He sees those with different beliefs as enemies.. They deserve no diplomacy..no respect...no common ground...just the cold shoulder and battle tactics.

cold shoulder?

McCain and Obama shook hands at the end of the debate. it was pretty clear and obvious.

later, Obama and Cindy McCain shook hands.

what's the big deal here?

It's an opportunity to bash McCain. So what if it requires a little creativity and imagination to make it stick?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Who cares about Israel? I don't.

Jews.

Some, but there's millions more fundamentalist Christians than Jews, and they are way more zealous about Jews having Israel, otherwise things won't go according to His Plan.

 

[dmcowen674]

I have no choice but to vote for McCain now.

His mortgage plan will save me from the fact that my house appraisal dropped 20% so he will buy back my mortgage, reset it and save me.

He bought my vote.

 

[Capitalizt]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I have no choice but to vote for McCain now.

His mortgage plan will save me from the fact that my house appraisal dropped 20% so he will buy back my mortgage, reset it and save me.

He bought my vote.

That is exactly what he is hoping to do with this scheme. I saw a report today on the number of home forclosures state by state.. And nearly every single battleground state had a high or "above average" forclosure rate. Bailing out the battleground states = vote buying.