***OFFICIAL*** Ryzen 5000 / Zen 3 Launch Thread REVIEWS BEGIN PAGE 39

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.vodka

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2014
1,203
1,537
136
I look forward to a ~350 entry ROB, 6 alu Zen 5

I shudder to think what this AMD can achieve with such a design and process. What the hell is Lisa feeding the teams?

I hadn't thought much of it until @Gideon mentioned it, but Sunny/Willow Cove seems quite wasteful. For example it already includes a ROB that big and performance is lackluster compared to what it should be capable of... seeing what AMD is doing with so little.

AMD Conroe'd Intel. This interview comes to mind:


26:00 onwards, Keller says something along the lines of "common practice is to build a computer and tweak for 10% extra performance here and there, at some point it's gotten so complex you hit a limit and you have to refactor and rewrite. Turns out the refactor and rewrite is usually half as complex and faster. If you want to make progress, you need to rewrite every 3 to 5 years. The tendency to rewrite is around 10 years"

I believe this philosophy has resonated and stuck with AMD during his last period there. Zen was the first rewrite to leave faildozer behind, Zen3 is the second rewrite in just three years. The results are clear.

Intel needs their rewrite. Sandy was the last one IIRC, that base is too long in the tooth.



Maybe?
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,492
3,387
136
I wonder why libquantum is so fast? Always love seeing speedups in A* too since that one has the most real world significance for me.
The working set size of the libquantum test is around 32MiB That is it can fit the entire test in cache. It's probably best to exclude those results.
 

rbk123

Senior member
Aug 22, 2006
745
348
136
Intel needs their rewrite.

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Intel done their rewrite and it's pretty good, it's just their fab that is a cluster, as they aren't getting the clocks like they have been?
 

inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
3,764
4,223
136
Does that mean that Zen 2 must have had serious architectural bottlenecks?

How about this analogy from a layman's perspective. For Zen 3, AMD didn't add more lanes to the roadway, or increase the speed limit so that cars could travel faster. Instead, they improved the surface quality of the road, and got rid of all the debris and other hazards that was slowing down traffic!

That is about right metaphor/analogy
Zen3 basically uncorks Zen2's limitations. They did make some die size investments, but at KEY areas so the impact is not large. Where it should have been large they compensated with better topology and process optimizations.

Anyone here with a 5800x test the memory write bandwidth out in AIDA64? Does the 5800x get full memory write bandwidth or is the memory write bandwidth half the speed of the memory read bandwidth?
The write BW is not a limitation , that is a myth. AFAIK there are zero workloads that show bottlenecks coming from the write BW from chiplets to the IMC/IOD.

Zen3 is memory BW bottle necked in highly MT workloads, that is evident, but it's because the cores need more memory BW (not just write BW).
 

chrisjames61

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
721
446
136
Everything as expected however I am not a fan that AMD has OC'ed their CPUs to the absolute limit this time around in order to beat Intel at 1080p by a few percent and by doing so worsened their thermals quite a lot. It would be nice to see all these CPUs with TDP being lowered by 5-20% - that could make them a lot more power efficient and colder.

https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-7-5800x/images/cpu-temperature.png (75C under load FFS).

Also, and I know I've repeated it a dozen times already but I don't understand why AMD has the right (and not only that people somehow find a justification for that) to increase their prices so much. Intel used to release new substantially faster CPU architectures without doing this: Sandy Bridge, Haswell, Sky Lake were all a lot faster than previous generation CPUs without price hikes and in certain cases even cost substantially less than their predecessors, e.g. the Intel Core i5-2500K was released for $216 while the Intel Core i7-920 cost $305.

People keep saying that $50 is practically nothing, only AMD has decided to start the lineup with the 5600X which costs $300, vs the 3600 which costs $200. It's not a $50 price hike, it's a $100/50%(!) price hike. Intel would have been decimated by the internet mob if they had ever attempted to be sneaky like this. I don't give a damn about the X suffix because it doesn't change anything and it's just a marketing differentiation. There's no 5600 CPU for $250.

Lastly, AMD is playing a monopoly card and it's just ugly. They force people to buy the 5900X/5950X CPUs because both the 3600/3700X were the most popular models for the Ryzen 3000 series, while for this generation, the 5800X is the worst (!) investment in terms of the bang for the buck. Margins decide everything not only for Intel and NVIDIA, as AMD has happily joined the "we'll rip you off because we are the fastest" club. I'm quite appalled by all of this.
Ever hear of the word "capitalism'? It isn't called "charity".
 
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chrisjames61

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
721
446
136
I have zero faith in RocketLake: 14nm, huge dies, insane power consumption. The earliest Intel can redeem themselves seems to be their new 7nm node CPUs at the end of 2022 (they seem to be unable to fix their 10nm node power consumption) but yeah, I'd love to have healthy competition in the x86 market which is now run by a single company while the other one keeps ripping the rewards of their ~14 years near monopoly (2004-2018).

I don't understand the excitement about the x86 market monopolization once again. It's already bad for customers. It's really great to see this topic without inane comments from AMD fans who have exactly zero to say and are cheering like children who have been given a new never tasted before candy.
So, you expect AMD to just give away the best cpu's you can get anywhere and just give them away for peanuts I suppose? If you own a house maybe you should sell it for under its market value and see how that works out for you....
 

chrisjames61

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
721
446
136
Remind me what competive CPUs did AMD have between AMD 64 and Ryzen. Remind me what made AMD almost sink itself by purchasing ATI which I still find to be a very questionable move because they have never truly realized the goals behind the merger (they wanted to create a Fusion APU which just never happened - we have something close to it in Xbox/SPS but that could have been done without this merger). You cannot blame everything on one company when the other company through mismanagement or dubious cash spendings is comming suicide (Intel was in the same boat with Brian Krzanich). I'm not defending Intel. I'm trying to defend healthy competition.
All you are doing is making yourself look foolish.
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
4,994
7,765
136
Anyone here with a 5800x test the memory write bandwidth out in AIDA64? Does the 5800x get full memory write bandwidth or is the memory write bandwidth half the speed of the memory read bandwidth?
Still half:


And it's overall also half of Zen 2 since it's now one CCX instead two per CCD, and the link is per CCX.

Technically that would make a 32 core Ryzen or a 128 core Epyc possible still without changing the IOD, since on the latter half the CCX links are now unused otherwise. 🤯 But lack of space on the package likely will prevent that, or will it?

26:00 onwards, Keller says something along the lines of "common practice is to build a computer and tweak for 10% extra performance here and there, at some point it's gotten so complex you hit a limit and you have to refactor and rewrite. Turns out the refactor and rewrite is usually half as complex and faster. If you want to make progress, you need to rewrite every 3 to 5 years. The tendency to rewrite is around 10 years"

I believe this philosophy has resonated and stuck with AMD during his last period there. Zen was the first rewrite to leave faildozer behind, Zen3 is the second rewrite in just three years. The results are clear.
Yeah, AMD is obviously sticking to that. Actually there may have been even more activity in the background. Do you recall how Keller was supposedly involved in the planning for Zen 1-3? Now Zen 3 was the rewrite already, and with Zen 2 AMD said they backported some Zen 3 improvements. Also there is now talk about two major design teams leapfrogging each other, with the first team having done Zen 1 and 2, and now the second team being responsible for Zen 3 and 4. This makes me belief AMD skipped the Zen 3 originally planned and rolled that into Zen 2 instead (which was late due to that so AMD created the filler Zen+ for the consumer market instead).
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,726
1,342
136
And it's overall also half of Zen 2 since it's now one CCX instead two per CCD, and the link is per CCX.

In other words, while the IOD is already a larger bottleneck than before just given the improvements to the CCD, it could be even worse than for MT workloads when there isn't much shared data. Which might partway explain the (relative to huge ST gains) somewhat disappointing MT performance improvement. Also, the halving of IF links likely counts for some non-insignificant portion of the power efficiency uplift.
 

CakeMonster

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2012
1,428
535
136
Does the lower base clock speeds of the 5950X show up in any scenarios vs the 5900X? Would there be a drawback in any use case that doesn't fully utilize all cores at 100% for the 5950X if money is no concern?

Also I'm trying to glean from the reviews so far if the more cache per core for the 5900X and the 5600X show any benefit vs the more enabled cores per CCX on the 5950X and the 5800X but I can't seem to confirm that even though it should make sense.
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
4,994
7,765
136
In other words, while the IOD is already a larger bottleneck than before just given the improvements to the CCD, it could be even worse than for MT workloads when there isn't much shared data. Which might partway explain the (relative to huge ST gains) somewhat disappointing MT performance improvement. Also, the halving of IF links likely counts for some non-insignificant portion of the power efficiency uplift.
I updated my post above with a couple other possibilities this brings, mentioned them in the Design changes in Zen 3 (CPU/core/chiplet only) thread as well. It's obvious AMD is planning something there.

Also the timing with RDNA2 going exactly the same path (limiting memory bandwidth and hiding behind some "Infinity" cache) is impeccable.
 

Edgy

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
366
20
81
Yeah - would've liked AMD to keep pricing in line with past launches even if newer products are better - as matter a fact, wished they might even lower the pricing lol...

My personal opinion is that CPU pricing SPIKED up to stupid levels while Intel was dominating the market. Didn't Intel decide at one point that charging $1000 for quad core CPU was a thing? Not only that, things were so stagnated that Intel kept on feeding us generations after generations of HIGH priced quad core CPUs with moderate improvements in performance usually anywhere from 5% to bit above 10% if lucky.

I do not and will NOT lay the responsibility solely on AMD to bring CPU pricing DOWN to reasonable levels - the same pricing levels that Intel artificially jacked up in greed in the first place.

I will root for Intel to get their act together and start competing - in the hopes that fierce competition will bring better pricing from both companies.

Would I be happy if AMD kept prices same or lowered it - hell yea. Do I think AMD is "gauging" the customer? Maybe a little but CERTAINLY NOT with lackluster improvements.

That's just my opinion - and to be honest, the situation seems to be mirroring what's happening on graphics side (though NV certainly has been more innovative while on top unlike Intel).

What I notice on graphics is that NV profits seems to be INCREASING (from around 40% to now recent years 50-60%) ever since they started doing these Ti, Super, and TITAN types of cards to charge more $$ and steadily increasing prices. Just look at NV profit history - I'm not an expert and it may be that I'm just on completely wrong footing but to me, NV profit increase seem to fit right in to the era when they started doing the Ti/Titan cards and kept increasing with current Ti/Super/Titan pricing increases.

I see some people are so busy trying to find excuses like graphics cards are more expensive to manufacture nowadays, which may be true to a certain extent... But the question I want answers for is then why are the profits increasing as they are increasing pricing to consumers?

IF AMD launches competitive graphics products at pricing levels that's pretty much set by NV - it is NOT AMD's responsibility to bring market prices down.

Good thing is at least on graphics side NV is far more agile and competitive than Intel is so hopefully competition will bring pricing down faster but nothing will feel fast enough lol.
 

Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
3,385
7,151
136
AMD Conroe'd Intel. This interview comes to mind:


26:00 onwards, Keller says something along the lines of "common practice is to build a computer and tweak for 10% extra performance here and there, at some point it's gotten so complex you hit a limit and you have to refactor and rewrite. Turns out the refactor and rewrite is usually half as complex and faster. If you want to make progress, you need to rewrite every 3 to 5 years. The tendency to rewrite is around 10 years"

I believe this philosophy has resonated and stuck with AMD during his last period there. Zen was the first rewrite to leave faildozer behind, Zen3 is the second rewrite in just three years. The results are clear.

Intel needs their rewrite. Sandy was the last one IIRC, that base is too long in the tooth.
This is in-line with ARM's approach to their architectures: have leapfrogging teams so that each year you have a new processor that is a tweak off of the base architecture, and then every 3 generations you introduce a clean-slate design. A76 is the current base architecture with A77 and A78 being tweaks of that architecture, and whatever comes after will be a clean slate design.
 
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Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
2,221
1,155
136
Yeah - would've liked AMD to keep pricing in line with past launches even if newer products are better - as matter a fact, wished they might even lower the pricing lol...

My personal opinion is that CPU pricing SPIKED up to stupid levels while Intel was dominating the market. Didn't Intel decide at one point that charging $1000 for quad core CPU was a thing? Not only that, things were so stagnated that Intel kept on feeding us generations after generations of HIGH priced quad core CPUs with moderate improvements in performance usually anywhere from 5% to bit above 10% if lucky.

I do not and will NOT lay the responsibility solely on AMD to bring CPU pricing DOWN to reasonable levels - the same pricing levels that Intel artificially jacked up in greed in the first place.

I will root for Intel to get their act together and start competing - in the hopes that fierce competition will bring better pricing from both companies.

Would I be happy if AMD kept prices same or lowered it - hell yea. Do I think AMD is "gauging" the customer? Maybe a little but CERTAINLY NOT with lackluster improvements.

That's just my opinion - and to be honest, the situation seems to be mirroring what's happening on graphics side (though NV certainly has been more innovative while on top unlike Intel).

What I notice on graphics is that NV profits seems to be INCREASING (from around 40% to now recent years 50-60%) ever since they started doing these Ti, Super, and TITAN types of cards to charge more $$ and steadily increasing prices. Just look at NV profit history - I'm not an expert and it may be that I'm just on completely wrong footing but to me, NV profit increase seem to fit right in to the era when they started doing the Ti/Titan cards and kept increasing with current Ti/Super/Titan pricing increases.

I see some people are so busy trying to find excuses like graphics cards are more expensive to manufacture nowadays, which may be true to a certain extent... But the question I want answers for is then why are the profits increasing as they are increasing pricing to consumers?

IF AMD launches competitive graphics products at pricing levels that's pretty much set by NV - it is NOT AMD's responsibility to bring market prices down.

Good thing is at least on graphics side NV is far more agile and competitive than Intel is so hopefully competition will bring pricing down faster but nothing will feel fast enough lol.
It is AMD's responsibility to change their market perception in the CPU and graphics card market. The best way to do that is lead with low pricing.
 
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DisEnchantment

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2017
1,687
6,243
136
IMO # transistors per chiplet could have increased, bu I doubt "real" density has changed much. What I mean by real density is transistor density in the L3$ or used core areas. I suspect it's the same for various reasons, including that they'd be constrained because of faster clocks and heat density. If they increased density while also increasing clocks, without a process shrink, that would require serious thermal considerations and I'm not sure they've changed a whole lot on that front.
I think that decent transistor budget would have been spent on improving security. Zen3 supports shadow stack, SEV-SNP, and a big bunch of hardening measures which you can find in the latest manuals which were updated since mid of Oct.

disappointed that Zen3 isnt really actually any wider in the front end or execution stages, or even load/store pipeline,
Amazed they pulled off ~20% IPC , higher clocks probably around the same transistor count on the same process at the same TDP.
I am more impressed by their more pragmatic approach in finding a balance between manufacturability and performance.
Papermaster specifically mentioned about this, that they could have gotten performance by throwing more power and transistors at the problem, but that was not how they want to tackle the problem in this generation.

If N5P improves within the next quarters, even a conservative ~1.5x gain in density would give them a lot of transistor budget to play with.
I wont be surprised if they did not make Zen3 any wider or add more execution units simply because they knew the bottleneck is there somewhere, like DDR4 memory subsystem or something.
DDR5 or even X3D might be some of the things to tackle that problem.
Zen4, imo, would be an even more radical uplift compare to Zen3.

This statement "The whole thing is supposed the brainiac vs speed demon approach" reveals his bias. There is no brainiac vs speed demon approach. ARM and Apple don't reach 4+ GHz and therefore they must design their pipelines to maximize throughput at slower speeds. Intel and AMD CAN reach those speeds and have found that the combination of higher speed, relatively lower SPEC per GHz, and the scalability to many cores works for them.
Having designed some buggy logic blocks professionally, increasing clock speeds is far from being the dumb speed demon approach. In many cases, you need more silicon to design high speed blocks, and so much of effort you have to spend on so many things like handling delay propagation, race conditions, locks, etc that is is just easier to duplicate logic blocks to gain performance and continue to work in a different clock domain with lower frequencies
I am either just not great at it or something, but thankfully I got promoted to work with "complete system design" now and dont deal with such low level stuff since a long time.

Andrei keeps using this "oh but Apple A13 is +64% vs +67%? that's what we're fighting over"? No, A13 loses to the 5600X by 20% in SPECint2006. Once Apple can design a chip that beats the 5600X then we can talk. Apple probably CAN design a nice fast chip. But they haven't. Defending the A13 is a loser's battle when we're talking about desktop CPUs.
I think the article is not intended to cater to professional audience. Even the Graviton article was quite cringy, if you are a professional.
Ths article is simply a repeat of AMD's slides with little new information that you can't surmise already.
Regarding SPEC, I dont know how relevant SPECint2006 is, honestly. From compute cluster/server perspective, I know the guys in my department don't use it. Some of the SW that Phoronix is running on his PTS suite is also what we run in our evaluation labs. Any of you guys use it professionally?
What about fp performance?
For the Graviton test it should be meaningful at least, not only just for the usual rendering and compute/scientific tasks
Some of the updates made to our distro by our software vendor, added AVX2 to BPF and netfilter, the performance gain for packet traversing in netfilter chains is mindblowing. If you have have proxy in front of your worker nodes, the difference in performance it makes is night and day, like 10x-15x lesser time spent in kernel space before packets get delivered/routed to end process.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,492
3,387
136
Defending the A13 is a loser's battle when we're talking about desktop CPUs.
A few days from now Apple will announce some new Macs. I expect them to compete with modern desktop CPUs. But we'll see. And I suppose that won't be the A13 exactly in any case.
 

Dave3000

Golden Member
Jan 10, 2011
1,375
91
91
Is there a review out that compares a 10700k with a 5800x using JEDEC spec'd 2933 RAM (or underclocked 3200 to 2933 with JEDEC timings) on the 10700k and JEDEC spec'd 3200 RAM on the 5800x?
 

amosliu137

Member
Jul 12, 2020
37
91
61
another Spec bench in zhihu by Edison Chen
compiler GCC 10.2 -march=znver2 for AMD, -march=native for Intel, -Ofast and other compatible flag,They are verified on the SPEC tools as a meaningful performance to upload.
third lib Jemalloc 5.21
SPEC CPU 2017 1.1 tune: base, 3 loop





author:Edison Chen
link:https://www.zhihu.com/question/428994199/answer/1561075014
Sourse : zhihu
 

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majord

Senior member
Jul 26, 2015
444
533
136
Had anyone averaged up the entire workload suites before commenting on perf/$.??
I get the strong feeling people are still just looking at MT performance averages and tying to peg value to it alone

Reality is these CPUs flip previous status quos on their head. You can't just look at the MT uplift over previous gen and ignore the much more significant per core (affecting what is still a notable number of accepted benchmarks) and gaming uplifts
 

amrnuke

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2019
1,181
1,772
136
A few days from now Apple will announce some new Macs. I expect them to compete with modern desktop CPUs. But we'll see. And I suppose that won't be the A13 exactly in any case.
Exactly. This is a completely fair point. There is no silver bullet. You get high performance from a combination of IPC and clocks and microarchitecture. If Apple can make something that exceeds Zen3 in performance, I for one am going to be the first to cheer. But that has not been proven yet. Honestly, all this competition is just hellaciously great for all of us, the end users. Because Apple is moving into the mobile space, and AMD and Intel are competing heavily, and Nvidia and AMD are competing heavily, we now suddenly have a plethora of freaking awesome options.

We have a 6/12 5600X at $299 that beats not just the 3800X, but the 3800XT (which retailed at $399) and coming within 3-5% of the 10/20 10900K ($475+).

We have a $549 RX6800 graphics card coming out that ties the $1000+ 2080Ti in many gaming situations.

Ostensibly, on Thanksgiving Day 2020, one could build a computer that is as fast in combined app and gaming performance, for ~$600 less than this time a year ago. Or one that's ~15-20% faster for the same price.

That's the pace we want. 15-20% gains per year for iso-price, or 25-40% reductions in price for iso-performance.

And, hey, get this... that's almost TSMC's process cadence! Who'd have thunk?!
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
2,221
1,155
136
Any word on if with Zen 3 coupling the fabric clock (FCLK) and memory clock will be unnecessary? They say the sweet spot is DDR4 4000mhz for Zen 3. Or does the new infinity fabric in Zen 3 allow for higher memory timings without becoming unstable. I know Zen2 and Zen 3 use the same memory controller.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
3,865
3,729
136
another Spec bench in zhihu by Edison Chen
compiler GCC 10.2 -march=znver2 for AMD, -march=native for Intel, -Ofast and other compatible flag,They are verified on the SPEC tools as a meaningful performance to upload.
third lib Jemalloc 5.21
SPEC CPU 2017 1.1 tune: base, 3 loop
View attachment 33136
View attachment 33138
View attachment 33139
View attachment 33141

author:Edison Chen
link:https://www.zhihu.com/question/428994199/answer/1561075014
Sourse : zhihu
This might be the first time I'm seeing SPECSpeed. Thank you for this.
 
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