** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[Kev]

I finally got promoted to silver, very weird because it started me off ranked 7th, then it gets weirder because I lost my 1st game in silver and was promoted to rank 4.

 

[Glitchny]

I finally got promoted to silver, very weird because it started me off ranked 7th, then it gets weirder because I lost my 1st game in silver and was promoted to rank 4.

it's not weird, it's based on points, you have enough points to be ranked 7th. You also didn't go up from losing, what happened is that 3 people above you either got promoted or lost enough points to fall below you in total points so you "moved up" by not losing as badly.

 

[Glitchny]

I'll be on if anyone wants to do practice 1v1's or grp or something. SkillGlitch.872

 

[eLiu]

I'll be on if anyone wants to do practice 1v1's or grp or something. SkillGlitch.872

I'm often on in the evenings: suntzu.445 Usually doing some league games w/my friend or screwing around in custom.

I don't play on my own computer (too shitty) so I'm unlikely to remember to add ATOTers to my friend thingy, but feel free to poke me.

 

[dust]

How do you guys deal with mutas, playing as terran? The terrans have next to nothing to counter them as far as I can see. Sure, a frontal assault might be balanced enough by the terran counter but as harassment, I find it impossible to counter them.

Sorry if it has been discussed before, didn't find anything yet about it.

 

[Glitchny]

How do you guys deal with mutas, playing as terran? The terrans have next to nothing to counter them as far as I can see. Sure, a frontal assault might be balanced enough by the terran counter but as harassment, I find it impossible to counter them.

Sorry if it has been discussed before, didn't find anything yet about it.

They are very annoying to counter as terran. The best thing is a group of marines and/or thors. Thors absolutely destroy mutas if they are bunched up, but they are slow to use all over the base. For a mobile deterrent use a group of marines with shields + stim they do very well against mutas. also missile turrets are much better in this game compared to SC1 so placing those to cover your base can help.

A lot of people make the mistake of not using marines in the late game. But marines are one of the best units in the game. they are cheap and when upgraded a ball of them will mow through units.

@eLiu - ok cool I'll add you

 

[eLiu]

How do you guys deal with mutas, playing as terran? The terrans have next to nothing to counter them as far as I can see. Sure, a frontal assault might be balanced enough by the terran counter but as harassment, I find it impossible to counter them.

Sorry if it has been discussed before, didn't find anything yet about it.

I fucking hate mutas. Argghhhh lol. I play mostly terran right now... would like to be random, but I suck too much at zerg. I've struggled with/still struggle with muta harass, but here are my thoughts:

1) Don't get surprised by mutas. It's totally reasonable to use your 2nd or 3rd batch of 50 energy to scan (instead of mule). If they're going muta, they can only get them so early. (And small numbers of mutas aren't that big of a deal.) So between scans, scouting by attacking, scouting by reaper harass, scouting by helion harass, etc you should know when that spire went down.
(Also doesn't hurt to familiarize yourself with when your zerg opponents are getting their mutas out--use that nifty in-game clock.)

2) Missile turrets are quite strong & will hold off small numbers of mutas. That said, if they have like 20 mutas, 2 or 3 turrets won't do shit. But for small numbers, usually the zerg starts with at least 4 mutas. So if you throw down say 2 turrets at the main & at the natural, you've only expended half as many resources to shield yourself. (on the flip side, your turrets are waaaaay less versatile)

3) Mutas are expensive. They require lair + spire, then 100/100 to build. A zerg trying to get these early is going to have to make sacrifices elsewhere. A zerg pumping mutas won't have enough gas left to make a meaningful number of say hydras; large numbers of banelings are also out of the question. Again, scout scout scout. Just b/c you see mutas doesn't mean the zerg is massing them; be wary of tech switches.

4) Vikings outrange mutas by a lot. You can use vikings to keep mutas at bay, cause damage while they attack other things, draw them toward your marines, etc. Vikings are also generally useful for harassment.

5) Try not to let the zerg get like 20 mutas at once. At 2000/2000 in cost, you would've had to been sitting on your ass for a quite a while to allow this to happen. Be aggressive and harass early. Don't let your opponent rest. If they have to expend resources building a ground army to trade w/you, they won't have as much left for mutas.

6) Don't leave your army without anti-air. Also there's no need to pull your whole army to fight off harassment. Tanks, marauders, etc can't help--could be a good time to attack.

7) I haven't really worked w/thors much (so slow), but I hear they're good against mutas, esp b/c of the splash. Unfortunately the splash range is tiny. One danger to be aware of is: the zerg can move the mutas over the thor & hit "stop". If you tell them to stop, the mutas spread out automatically, severely reducing the thor's splash potential. And when moving around, if you don't click too near the group of mutas, they won't clump.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

8) stim'd marines are really mobile. Consider stimming to get them where the mutas are faster. (Don't build an army of just marines b/c you fear mutas. Banelings will annihilate you.)

Basically, scout so you know when/if mutas are coming. It doesn't hurt to prepare some static defenses. Keep the aggression and/or harassment up so that the zerg doesn't have a chance to comfortably mass mutas. Your unit choices are marine, viking, and thor. Which one(s) you pick are pretty much up to you (though w/pure vikings, you will need to outnumber the mutas or you lose).

 

[NYHoustonman]

7) I haven't really worked w/thors much (so slow), but I hear they're good against mutas, esp b/c of the splash. Unfortunately the splash range is tiny. One danger to be aware of is: the zerg can move the mutas over the thor & hit "stop". If you tell them to stop, the mutas spread out automatically, severely reducing the thor's splash potential. And when moving around, if you don't click too near the group of mutas, they won't clump.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

Great video. When I end up as Zerg, I tend to avoid mutas against Terran as (in the past) I've had to make multiple control groups to keep them spread out. This makes it so much easier .

 

[Atheus]

This thread is a totally different world 0_o

Bought the game recently and played the campaign, but maybe I'll just stick to FPS multilplayer lol

 

[dust]

I fucking hate mutas. Argghhhh lol. I play mostly terran right now... would like to be random, but I suck too much at zerg. I've struggled with/still struggle with muta harass, but here are my thoughts:

1) Don't get surprised by mutas. It's totally reasonable to use your 2nd or 3rd batch of 50 energy to scan (instead of mule). If they're going muta, they can only get them so early. (And small numbers of mutas aren't that big of a deal.) So between scans, scouting by attacking, scouting by reaper harass, scouting by helion harass, etc you should know when that spire went down.
(Also doesn't hurt to familiarize yourself with when your zerg opponents are getting their mutas out--use that nifty in-game clock.)

2) Missile turrets are quite strong & will hold off small numbers of mutas. That said, if they have like 20 mutas, 2 or 3 turrets won't do shit. But for small numbers, usually the zerg starts with at least 4 mutas. So if you throw down say 2 turrets at the main & at the natural, you've only expended half as many resources to shield yourself. (on the flip side, your turrets are waaaaay less versatile)

3) Mutas are expensive. They require lair + spire, then 100/100 to build. A zerg trying to get these early is going to have to make sacrifices elsewhere. A zerg pumping mutas won't have enough gas left to make a meaningful number of say hydras; large numbers of banelings are also out of the question. Again, scout scout scout. Just b/c you see mutas doesn't mean the zerg is massing them; be wary of tech switches.

4) Vikings outrange mutas by a lot. You can use vikings to keep mutas at bay, cause damage while they attack other things, draw them toward your marines, etc. Vikings are also generally useful for harassment.

5) Try not to let the zerg get like 20 mutas at once. At 2000/2000 in cost, you would've had to been sitting on your ass for a quite a while to allow this to happen. Be aggressive and harass early. Don't let your opponent rest. If they have to expend resources building a ground army to trade w/you, they won't have as much left for mutas.

6) Don't leave your army without anti-air. Also there's no need to pull your whole army to fight off harassment. Tanks, marauders, etc can't help--could be a good time to attack.

7) I haven't really worked w/thors much (so slow), but I hear they're good against mutas, esp b/c of the splash. Unfortunately the splash range is tiny. One danger to be aware of is: the zerg can move the mutas over the thor & hit "stop". If you tell them to stop, the mutas spread out automatically, severely reducing the thor's splash potential. And when moving around, if you don't click too near the group of mutas, they won't clump.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

8) stim'd marines are really mobile. Consider stimming to get them where the mutas are faster. (Don't build an army of just marines b/c you fear mutas. Banelings will annihilate you.)

Basically, scout so you know when/if mutas are coming. It doesn't hurt to prepare some static defenses. Keep the aggression and/or harassment up so that the zerg doesn't have a chance to comfortably mass mutas. Your unit choices are marine, viking, and thor. Which one(s) you pick are pretty much up to you (though w/pure vikings, you will need to outnumber the mutas or you lose).

I'll give it a try with stim marines , thors are way to big/slow to effectively counter harassment. Turrets are plain waste of minerals as far as I can tell, if I only make one or two, ten mutas will blow them from a fart or two. Marines with stim and medivacs should be ok though.

I have been trying marines already without much success, but with the increased movement speed/rate of fire they should do better. I also like to use them in late game as well

 

[eLiu]

Great video. When I end up as Zerg, I tend to avoid mutas against Terran as (in the past) I've had to make multiple control groups to keep them spread out. This makes it so much easier .

Oh no. I don't want to be helping zerg players use fucking mutas But really mutas are quite strong in the terran match up. You're pretty likely to run into people with unguarded expansions or widely spread out expansions. Maybe you don't want to slam into their main army w/mutas, but definitely abuse your mobility by bouncing between bases, pew pew pew a few times, and move on.

Drivenbyvoltage, I definitely believe in the usefulness of turrets. If nothing else they buy time till the marines arrive. And some zergs will be straight up deterred by them. 100 minerals isn't really thaaat much (repair them!), and if they can save 2 scv's or kill a muta, then it was probably worth it? But sure, if the zerg has a lot of mutas, your turrets are boned. Best bet then is probably to counter-attack their base b/c you'll never chase down any group of mutas & zerg should be avoiding stand up fights.

 

[dust]

Oh no. I don't want to be helping zerg players use fucking mutas But really mutas are quite strong in the terran match up. You're pretty likely to run into people with unguarded expansions or widely spread out expansions. Maybe you don't want to slam into their main army w/mutas, but definitely abuse your mobility by bouncing between bases, pew pew pew a few times, and move on.

Drivenbyvoltage, I definitely believe in the usefulness of turrets. If nothing else they buy time till the marines arrive. And some zergs will be straight up deterred by them. 100 minerals isn't really thaaat much (repair them!), and if they can save 2 scv's or kill a muta, then it was probably worth it? But sure, if the zerg has a lot of mutas, your turrets are boned. Best bet then is probably to counter-attack their base b/c you'll never chase down any group of mutas & zerg should be avoiding stand up fights.

The turrets might be a response early in the game. In later games, no zerg player relies solely on mutas. It's likely they will have a pool of ten flyers to distract you while moving to your closest expansion. But I suppose it's better than nothing. I feel somehow that the mutas are more effective against turrets than the banshees, but I could be wrong.

 

[dust]

edit: just had another game with a zerg. One or two turrets by the mineral line with 2-3 vikings kept in the middle of the base should take care of it

 

[Ika]

instead of turrets, why not a bunker full of marines? it costs more initially but it can be mobile, and can be salvaged later on. it'll be more robust as well.

 

[dust]

I haven't found many maps that would allow enough space behind the mineral line to build bunkers. You'd have to build them at the sides and still not have full coverage of the mineral line. Turrets outrange the bunkers once you apply the upgrade. I went also for the +2 armor upgrade.

 

[Glitchny]

instead of turrets, why not a bunker full of marines? it costs more initially but it can be mobile, and can be salvaged later on. it'll be more robust as well.

I haven't found many maps that would allow enough space behind the mineral line to build bunkers. You'd have to build them at the sides and still not have full coverage of the mineral line. Turrets outrange the bunkers once you apply the upgrade. I went also for the +2 armor upgrade.

this and turrets also do a substantial amount of damage to both light and armored air units, they are also detectors so no worries about banshee's/dt drops/burrowed infestors.

 

[Howard]

7) I haven't really worked w/thors much (so slow), but I hear they're good against mutas, esp b/c of the splash. Unfortunately the splash range is tiny. One danger to be aware of is: the zerg can move the mutas over the thor & hit "stop". If you tell them to stop, the mutas spread out automatically, severely reducing the thor's splash potential. And when moving around, if you don't click too near the group of mutas, they won't clump.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

Even if they do this, it takes 16 mutas to kill one thor lol

 

[timosyy]

Turrets are amazing vs. Mutas...

It's not worth it to the zerg to take out a turret with mutas if they wind up losing even one muta. Also, when zerg have enough mutas to actually kill a turret (assuming you haven't just a-moved into his base and killed him by then), it gives you enough time to stim your marines in to ward them off. Marines massacre mutas.

Most zerg do just keep ~8-10 mutas in the air to harass and ward off drops though, because massing mutas at 100/100 a pop means you have barely any ground force, and mutas are terrible in a head to head engagement. So in that scenario 2-3 turrets at each expo etc. are incredibly effective at warding them off.

 

[Praxis1452]

Turrets are amazing vs. Mutas...

It's not worth it to the zerg to take out a turret with mutas if they wind up losing even one muta. Also, when zerg have enough mutas to actually kill a turret (assuming you haven't just a-moved into his base and killed him by then), it gives you enough time to stim your marines in to ward them off. Marines massacre mutas.

Most zerg do just keep ~8-10 mutas in the air to harass and ward off drops though, because massing mutas at 100/100 a pop means you have barely any ground force, and mutas are terrible in a head to head engagement. So in that scenario 2-3 turrets at each expo etc. are incredibly effective at warding them off.

Nobody puts down more than 3 turrets most of the time. If you focus down two you can stop production.

Having to keep your marines in your base means you can't really keep them with your army on a push. Not to mention, if they are pushing you, banelings will wipe them easily, leaving the mutas to deal with thors. If you're smart, you should easily win this provided they don't have too many thors. If they do, zerglings work well.

Even if they do this, it takes 16 mutas to kill one thor lol

It takes substantially less. It's about a 3-4:1 ratio once you get a few thors due to the glaive.

 

[evident]

bah, just dropped 3 in a row very stupidly.

 

[eLiu]

Damn, I suck balls at breaking fortified positions. Possibly/probably the answer is to just exert map control & never attempt a frontal assault? :/ (Fortified = siege tanks, cannons, crawlers, etc concentrated at a choke/entrance.)

How do you guys handle these sorts of things? Frontal assault is what I usually do, and it worked in the beginning when I was playing relatively bad opponents. But as they've been getting better, frontal assault costs me my whole army for not enough return on investment.

Lost a 2v2 w/glitchny probably due to me losing an army through frontal attack.

And played another 2v2 for lulz w/another friend (dual planetary rush) where we wiped out 1 guy & the other guy ran away and turtled (A LOT of photon cannons). So my friend and I built tanks & went in the front... only to get surprised by his large number of void rays D: Fail. If we had just exerted aerial control & kept an army at the enemy base, we would've had it.

 

[Howard]

nm

 

[Glitchny]

Damn, I suck balls at breaking fortified positions. Possibly/probably the answer is to just exert map control & never attempt a frontal assault? :/ (Fortified = siege tanks, cannons, crawlers, etc concentrated at a choke/entrance.)

How do you guys handle these sorts of things? Frontal assault is what I usually do, and it worked in the beginning when I was playing relatively bad opponents. But as they've been getting better, frontal assault costs me my whole army for not enough return on investment.

Lost a 2v2 w/glitchny probably due to me losing an army through frontal attack.

And played another 2v2 for lulz w/another friend (dual planetary rush) where we wiped out 1 guy & the other guy ran away and turtled (A LOT of photon cannons). So my friend and I built tanks & went in the front... only to get surprised by his large number of void rays D: Fail. If we had just exerted aerial control & kept an army at the enemy base, we would've had it.

yea we should have just waited and taken more of the map instead of trying to bust in there. It's the "defenders advantage" since they are entrenched it is very hard to remove them. I also should have gone more tank viking instead of messing around with builds.

I did go 5-1 in 1v1's after that though. 4 TvT, 1TvZ (loss, oh god did I mess up my build in a horrible horrible way) and 1TvP whom I spanked. Was getting sick of TvT as so far Vike+Tank has been unbeatable, and a lot of players forget to upgrade their Vikings.

The one close game I had was on Blistering sands and I had my natural, the 6 o'clock and the 3 o'clock expansions with 3 starports+reactors pumping vikings. Got to a point where I had so many he wouldnt stop them and he GG'd as I moved in on his natural (he hadn't expanded past there)

I've noticed most TvT if i can get them turtled I can just expand and out macro them to victory.

 

[eLiu]

yea we should have just waited and taken more of the map instead of trying to bust in there. It's the "defenders advantage" since they are entrenched it is very hard to remove them. I also should have gone more tank viking instead of messing around with builds.

I did go 5-1 in 1v1's after that though. 4 TvT, 1TvZ (loss, oh god did I mess up my build in a horrible horrible way) and 1TvP whom I spanked. Was getting sick of TvT as so far Vike+Tank has been unbeatable, and a lot of players forget to upgrade their Vikings.

The one close game I had was on Blistering sands and I had my natural, the 6 o'clock and the 3 o'clock expansions with 3 starports+reactors pumping vikings. Got to a point where I had so many he wouldnt stop them and he GG'd as I moved in on his natural (he hadn't expanded past there)

I've noticed most TvT if i can get them turtled I can just expand and out macro them to victory.

After that I lost 1 and won 1 2v2 w/another friend. The loss was us (TZ) vs 2 turtled zergs who pumped mutas. We saw them entrenched w/crawlers in my initial push and we were like "probably going mutas..." and we proceeded to not prepare for mutas. And got jacked. I hate Discord IV; everything is painfully spread out.

The win (us vs PZ) was a "standard" out-macro the enemy type of situation.

In TvT I try to do other things besides out-macro them. I usually can win that way as well, but I try to take it as chances to pratice my horrible micro skills through attacking & doing drops. Results in a good number of losses where my army dies & I can't hold the counter-attack. Yep, I'm one of those fools that suicides the army instead of pulling back when it looks grim :/ Don't have a good intuition for that b/c sometimes it works out & sometimes I lose everything.

We might've had better luck if we had coordinated better in that twilight fort match. In the beginning it seemed to be going well w/you containing & me taking out expansions. But then I attacked & died (oooooops) and then they attacked your containment force and it died. I liked the battlecruisers but maybe we didn't have enough aerial control yet? Hard to support them w/o a dominant viking force. Or maybe not enough ground units b/c our armies were often split? Not sure--haven't had a chance to watch the replay yet. But yeah I can't believe they let me mine out that expo w/the planetary fortress. They blew away your expo but just let me be... so shocking haha.

But yeah I'm also pretty reluctant to match tanks+vikings with my own tanks+vikings. Seems like something more can be done.

 

[dust]

Try a seeker missile or two if you got a second raven. Always on the tanks. Should improve your odds.