** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[Glitchny]

VRs are fine - easily scouted and easily countered.

Four gate is actually a far more potent threat against both Terran and Zerg. You can scout 4 gate all day long and it will still likely end up decimating you. Producing units as powerful as Stalkers at such a high rate is extremely powerful. I'm sure many Protoss players will bristle at this suggestion, but it will likely be nerfed to a certain extent. And good lord when they mix in sentry force fields. Brutal. Collosi are fine, there's no need to nerf them.

The only solution I've found as Terran is to spam tanks and park outside of their base, hoping they herp derp and send their stalkers out through the choke. Mix in some EMPs and MMM. Otherwise, GG.

As Zerg, of course, you need to rush and overwhelm Protoss before mid or end game, whereupon you are done.

VR's are easily countered by marines

And unless the Terran is doing something horribly wrong, MM > 4gate. It's laughable how fast marauders eat through stalkers and kite zealots with the slow. If they stay 4gate by the time I get Medivacs or Ghosts the game is already over. There is a reason why the majority of toss whiners on the SC2 forums cry over marauders, in general Rax units > gateway units. The only thing you have to watch for is Colossi and then you just get vikings and LOL to victory.

Could be that 90% of toss players 4gate because it is mind-numbingly easy to play and they really don't know what to do when countered, but I've had very little problems with it.

 

[Dumac]

They don't have late game strength imo. A zerg player has to finish within 15 min max and there are plenty of strats to accomplish that.

I completely disagree. Early game is where zerg is weakest. Zerg has the strongest late games with ultimate units suck as ultralisk and broodlords, which are, IMO, the best late game units.

It is just hard to zerg to survive until the late game.

 

[Dumac]

I got destroyed by 4 gate just last night. They pumped stalkers that I couldn't even fire on (unless I lowered my SD's) while they took out my wall. if I tried to chase them they would pull back or set up a force field or barrier. It took 7:30. I can't see a way of defending from that cheese. Glad to know the guy who beat me is just a drone who learned how to do this on youtube.

4gate isn't cheese at all. It's far from it.

Also, as terran, you can hold against a 4gate easily. Properly done biobuild will destroy 4gate, as the marauder > all gateway units (besides HT). Not to mention as terran you have ever-so-useful defensive structures.

 

[Dumac]

any toss folks in the house? i'm a gold player, I do ok, but totally suck at countering the terran mmm ball. the only time I've beaten or held off a mmm ball is if I have a good mix of an army, z's+stalks+sentry+colli+storm ... but usually I get demolish by the ball before I get the army.

They seem to usually attack before my first colli or just right about when he pops out ... tips/suggestions?

If your map has a small map, you can FF the ramp if your colossi aren't out yet.

If your opponent is being aggressive, you may have to get an immortal out to deal with the marauders, although that may slow your colossi timing.

 

[Dumac]

does anyone else think charged void rays are imba?
they need a nerf IMO.

Void rays are far from imbalanced. They were nerfed a lot during the beta

Uncharged void rays are almost worthless. Void rays are ONLY viable with charge, and its easy enough to stop them from charging.

 

[bhanson]

I completely disagree. Early game is where zerg is weakest. Zerg has the strongest late games with ultimate units suck as ultralisk and broodlords, which are, IMO, the best late game units.

It is just hard to zerg to survive until the late game.

Actually it's somewhat funny because Zerg is weak late game too.

At 200/200 food a Protoss or Terran army will beat a Zerg army with the only consolation being you can rebuild faster (assuming you have more bases than they do).

Once a P/T has that critical mass of units there's really not much Zerg can do other than throw two armies at it.

 

[Dumac]

Actually it's somewhat funny because Zerg is weak late game too.

At 200/200 food a Protoss or Terran army will beat a Zerg army with the only consolation being you can rebuild faster (assuming you have more bases than they do).

Once a P/T has that critical mass of units there's really not much Zerg can do other than throw two armies at it.

It depends on what unit compositions are out. Roaches inflate zerg population, so having a large population of roaches out of 200 will make a max pop army relatively weak.

However units like ultras and broodlords can easily change the tide. There have been a lot of pro zerg games where the zergs went from seemingly about to GG any moment to winning due to finally reaching ultras or brood lords.

But yes, generally with max pop armies zerg will lose. This is supposed to be a zerg mechanic, where they have "cheap but easily replaced units". It doesn't work out that well though...

 

[beginner99]

any toss folks in the house? i'm a gold player, I do ok, but totally suck at countering the terran mmm ball. the only time I've beaten or held off a mmm ball is if I have a good mix of an army, z's+stalks+sentry+colli+storm ... but usually I get demolish by the ball before I get the army.

They seem to usually attack before my first colli or just right about when he pops out ... tips/suggestions?

Same problem here and as indicated MM > zealot/stalker.
One thing I observed is that making a wall on top of your ramp is counterproductive. You need that space for your units vs. terran. Build warpgates around your nexus.

Go for a fast robo for observer and immortals. This also tells you you need a ton of gas. Use that chronoboost for probe production.
You are right first push normally comes before the first colossus and even if it is out it doesn't have extented range yet and is easily sniped out by marauders. First 2-3 sentries can't hurt. if he attacks just block your ramp and build more units. Often they will retreat in fear of their army getting split up.
Also immortals are pretty good vs marauders.

Don't expand too early (but not to late) but when you do macro up. maybe take a 2 expansions pretty quickly. Don't forget to build more warpgates. once you are running of 2 or 3 bases 8 or more waprgates are cool. Also it's often good to have 2 robo bays for colossi/immortal.

The issue is vikings because they destroy colossi.

Sometimes darktemplars can be helpful too but the dark shrine just takes so long to warp in...they need alot of micro. never group them. once their scans are used up you can destroy them. Sometimes they are also helpful with the main army. because then a lot of players don't get there are dt's within the mix and loose a lot of battles.

 

[Ika]

Same problem here and as indicated MM > zealot/stalker.
One thing I observed is that making a wall on top of your ramp is counterproductive. You need that space for your units vs. terran. Build warpgates around your nexus.

Go for a fast robo for observer and immortals. This also tells you you need a ton of gas. Use that chronoboost for probe production.
You are right first push normally comes before the first colossus and even if it is out it doesn't have extented range yet and is easily sniped out by marauders. First 2-3 sentries can't hurt. if he attacks just block your ramp and build more units. Often they will retreat in fear of their army getting split up.
Also immortals are pretty good vs marauders.

Don't expand too early (but not to late) but when you do macro up. maybe take a 2 expansions pretty quickly. Don't forget to build more warpgates. once you are running of 2 or 3 bases 8 or more waprgates are cool. Also it's often good to have 2 robo bays for colossi/immortal.

The issue is vikings because they destroy colossi.

Sometimes darktemplars can be helpful too but the dark shrine just takes so long to warp in...they need alot of micro. never group them. once their scans are used up you can destroy them. Sometimes they are also helpful with the main army. because then a lot of players don't get there are dt's within the mix and loose a lot of battles.

toss needs to be careful with DTs, because getting them basically forces T to get ravens and turrets. turrets are bad for a void ray's health, and ravens can be dangerous if a terran is forced to get one and can use its abilities well. DTs should be used as a distractionary and/or surprise tactic, not a whole lot else.

 

[eLiu]

Personally, I think protoss gateway units have a lot of staying power. It is certainly not the case that any time a protoss pushes w/gateway units on a terran, the toss loses. I think part of the issue here is that 4gating had a very rapid rise in popularity due to its ease & effectiveness. So a lot of players are like "oh durr this is ez lemme do it alwayz."

And that worked for a while, but as others find effective ways to fight it off, it won't be as strong. But a well executed 4gate still looks pretty damn strong to me. And in the mid-late game, charglots do quite well against terran (w/the proper support...)

Don't forget about high templar. They can really rock against an all rax army.
A few immortals can help against a lot of marauders. Maybe colossi for lots of marines. Phoenixes seem pretty under-used... they seem quite nice for harassment (since they're faster than every terran unit), they can lift tanks, and they nullify banshees.


as for zerg, I don't think broodlords & ultras are the best units in the game. They're super good at breaking defenses. Ultras seem a bit more versatile since they're decently fast & they have epic armor after upgrades. Broodlords are incredibly slow... if they're in the right place, they rape. Otherwise they might not even show up in time.

 

[dust]

That's exactly what I think about them also. Ultras?! I'll probably never tech towards them since they're land units and they take forever to reach to the other side and the road is never safe.It is likely they might meet some banshees on the way and that's that for them. Brood lords? Way too slow and their anti-air support, mutas/corruptors never impress a counter of vikings or phoenix/voids.Their only chance is the infestor and his abilities, only that very few use them properly.

The zerg has the ability to gather in numbers pretty quick, at least a lot quicker than other races, that's where their strength lies, but at 200 vs 200 supply they'll get trumped easily.

Also they're the only race without a proper air unit for middle late game. The protos has the void and the terrans got the banshees. The zerg has what? The mutas? They're excellent for harassment, but they lack strength to level a middle game base.

edit: the latest patch removes the ram ability for the ultras.

The early game, preferably rush is their win strategy imo.

 

[HomerX]

I'll probably never tech towards them since they're land units and they take forever to reach to the other side and the road is never safe.It is likely they might meet some banshees on the way and that's that for them.

Ultras are not so slow, especially when on creep which should be spread by the time you have them...

and if the terran has ammased a lot of banshees and you have no air control, something went wrong in the beginning...

Brood lords? Way too slow and their anti-air support, mutas/corruptors never impress a counter of vikings or phoenix/voids.Their only chance is the infestor and his abilities, only that very few use them properly.

mutas kill vikings/voids in large numbers... and the zerg player can usually outproduce the other races in terms of air units...

Also they're the only race without a proper air unit for middle late game. The protos has the void and the terrans got the banshees. The zerg has what? The mutas? They're excellent for harassment, but they lack strength to level a middle game base.

but exactly this harassment strength is what it makes them so good! if the enemy makes a failure you can kill a lot of probes/buildings/units... you force them to build AA units/buildings and they are excelent scouts!

if the enemy pushes early use banelings/zerglings/infestors to kill the aa units and clean up with the mutalisks...

they aren't there to win the large fights but they buy the zerg enough time/eco advantage to kill the enemy with a large ground army/broodlords.

concerning the VR, i think they are fine... a prepared zerg with 5-6 queens has no trouble defending against 2-3 early VRs and later on you have a mutalisk army to deal with them.

But i lost to a VR rush on desert oasis a few days ago... i expected fast VRs and i had ~5 queens at the time they attacked but they warped in 4 zealots in my mineral line at the same time -.- i had not enough zerglings because i defended with spines/queens at the choke... totally forgot that the P is able to warp units up the cliff right in your mineral line

 

[beginner99]

toss needs to be careful with DTs, because getting them basically forces T to get ravens and turrets. turrets are bad for a void ray's health, and ravens can be dangerous if a terran is forced to get one and can use its abilities well. DTs should be used as a distractionary and/or surprise tactic, not a whole lot else.

I completely agree. DT's work for 1 maybe 2 attacks and because they are so expensive the attack must pay off. The good part is that it can be a quick win if you can kill most of his miners.

VR's can be a pain but they are not OP. As terran just make rines, as zerg queens can easly stop an early harass. I used to do VR harass a few times but I don't think it's worse it. Against zerg, warpgates are enough to win and terran can counter easly with cheap marines.

But I can imagine that it is different in 22 / 33 games.

 

[onza]

RE: Dark Templars
I use them very rarely, and when I do it's with a warp prisim, have 2-3 zealots loaded on the ship then warp in 2-3 DT's. It literally levels the opponents economy. In my 100 or so games, I've used DT's 4times if that. I find they are a very expensive unit / tech tree to go down. I will note that the DT is great if you build 2-3 and you know they expanded and you just send them off to random expansions because you know he can't be everywhere.

RE: Terrans vs 4gate'ing protoss
If the terrans in here are getting overrun/beaten by 4 gate protoss's, I suggest you scout their base either with scan or suicide marines and you will know your answer, If that's the case, MICRO'ing marauders just EAT gateway units, so I suggest you go 5 rax marauders.. But then don't go QQ'ing when the protoss comes in with a Void ray to your mineral line since you have no air defense.

 

[Axon]

RE: Terrans vs 4gate'ing protoss
If the terrans in here are getting overrun/beaten by 4 gate protoss's, I suggest you scout their base either with scan or suicide marines and you will know your answer, If that's the case, MICRO'ing marauders just EAT gateway units, so I suggest you go 5 rax marauders.. But then don't go QQ'ing when the protoss comes in with a Void ray to your mineral line since you have no air defense.

I guess most protoss players doesn't want to acknowledge how strong 4 gate is. Grass is greener, etc. Anyway, if timed correctly, 4 gate is extremely dangerous. It's hard to mass enough units as terran to fend off a large four gate attack by the mid game.

Anyway, I'll give your suggested build a shot tonight. I'll do my usual and then nothing but barracks, MMM and upgrades. It'll probably work too. Sad

 

[onza]

I guess most protoss players doesn't want to acknowledge how strong 4 gate is. Grass is greener, etc. Anyway, if timed correctly, 4 gate is extremely dangerous. It's hard to mass enough units as terran to fend off a large four gate attack by the mid game.

Anyway, I'll give your suggested build a shot tonight. I'll do my usual and then nothing but barracks, MMM and upgrades. It'll probably work too. Sad

Try this, from your first rax, build one marine, then add the tech lab for marauders, as soon as you have 2 marauders push out.. The insane pressure this puts on protoss will more than likely throw the player off and you will single handedly(sp?) win, BUT make sure you keep your macro up and keep building production buildings during this initial attack.

I'm not sure how your micro is, do you just a+click then stand in place? or do you stop micro your units to keep distances from units? Concussive shells is also VERY VERY important so upgrade/research this as well.

Good Luck

 

[Glitchny]

Ok so I don't know how many of you watch day9 dailies but every monday is now "funday monday" where he just makes up a random restriction and people have to follow it and send him replays to comment.

week1: zerg->no queens

week2: toss->must build carrier before an expansion

week3(this week): terran-> cannot make marines marauders or tanks

I'm going to try practicing it and see if I can get a win on the ladder with it, though I suspect not, it should make for some interesting games. Any unit combinations that might work well that anyone can think of?

My ground army is gonna have to be reapers/ghosts with thors? or just mass reaper + viking?

The problem I'm seeing is that I'm going to be boned on gas when making ground units.

 

[Aikouka]

The next Funday Monday might be easier against Zerg given how well Hellions work well against their light units and Roaches incredibly low range (3). Reapers would work well too. But I can't imagine either tactic working well against Terran or Protoss. Maybe something silly like Reapers as initial defense (bunkers to protect them) and tech to something wildly powerful like mass BC. Or maybe even a super ludicrous (cloaked) Ghost rush!

Also, Ultralisks can burrow now, which gives them an advantage over Banshees that don't have scan or Raven support.

 

[Glitchny]

The next Funday Monday might be easier against Zerg given how well Hellions work well against their light units and Roaches incredibly low range (3). Reapers would work well too. But I can't imagine either tactic working well against Terran or Protoss. Maybe something silly like Reapers as initial defense (bunkers to protect them) and tech to something wildly powerful like mass BC. Or maybe even a super ludicrous (cloaked) Ghost rush!

Also, Ultralisks can burrow now, which gives them an advantage over Banshees that don't have scan or Raven support.

yea early game is gonna be reapers + prayers, but I guess i can tech to fast thors... only problem is that usually i use marines as defense until the thor comes out... hmmmm

 

[Barfo]

Are you guys doing this Funday Monday thing in Platinum or Diamond? I don't think I could survive without marines.

 

[Aikouka]

Are you guys doing this Funday Monday thing in Platinum or Diamond? I don't think I could survive without marines.

I'm only in Silver :$.

Of course, I barely play, so that doesn't help....

 

[Ika]

yea early game is gonna be reapers + prayers, but I guess i can tech to fast thors... only problem is that usually i use marines as defense until the thor comes out... hmmmm

thoritary fortress rush... with a fortress at choke to defend...?

eh oh el.

 

[Glitchny]

Are you guys doing this Funday Monday thing in Platinum or Diamond? I don't think I could survive without marines.

I'm in plat currently trying to get into diamond, probably will soon as i've beaten a few and don't have a ton of games played yet. and boy have i played some bad zerg diamond players. but for the record, FUCK MUTALISK, so annoying. 1 game I just said fuck it stimmed a bunch of marauders and sniped out his tech buildings so i wouldn't have to deal with them,.

I'm debating trying it though as I just had a good streak and don't want to completely fuck it up, but it's just for fun so not a big deal really... still have no idea how it's going to work, maybe ill just play a custom vs my silver level friend.

 

[razor2025]

Day9 must hate Terran alot. The other two race for Funday Monday was only restricted by 1 unit (queen) or rush one-type (carrier, which wasn't even really restriction). Terran gets 3 units banned. The only way that build with no marines-marauders-tanks would work is that other guys not scouting and not pushing early. You have nothing to shoot back until you get a hellion. I guess the only viable build is Thor rush/drop.

 

[razor2025]

thoritary fortress rush... with a fortress at choke to defend...?

eh oh el.

You're basically forced to cheese with reapers. You have to keep up with the harrassment long and well enough, so you can tech up to Thors for finishing blow.