** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[eLiu]

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/5_Barracks_Reaper_(vs._Zerg)

That was popularized at the IEM tourney... the morrow v idra game was pretty epic. This seems like it could be a pretty good bet to hold down the early game, but the transition is going to be fucking awkward.

Maybe adapt that build to only get 3 rax then get factories and grab hellions & then thors (hot swap factories & use the rax to scout or something)? Or hellion/ghost/viking (so rax are stlil useful)? I would suggest mass ravens TLO-style (turrets & seekers with a splattering of pdd), but I dunno wtf you're going to do to stay alive until the ravens are out.

Getting a super early banshee seems like another decent possibility. A lot of plat and even diamond players I've seen don't get detection early enough to deal with something like the cauthonluck cheese. You could adapt that build to be a little slower w/the banshees & less econ crippled. So banshee harass early & simult hellion harass? By the time your banshee is out you could probably have like 3 hellions and still be pretty fast on the banshees.

Or actually maybe banshee+hellion *push* to cover an expansion and/or tech to thor? Seems dangerous given how wimpy hellions are...

I think the terran funday monday will be exciting to see. I'm really hoping for some nuclear launch detected action

 

[Aikouka]

I'm really hoping for some nuclear launch detected action

Now you're getting me tempted to try it... nothing more I love than multiple ghosts firing multiple Nukes (from multiple areas). Going to scan me? Okay... only some of your stuff won't die :twisted:.

Although, lately it seems I like talking about Starcraft II a hell of a more than I like playing it. /armchairgeneral

 

[xCxStylex]

Depending on the map, I would say skip the first marine and use the $$ for a 2nd rax sooner. Push with that FIRST marauder once conc shells are done researching and its GG protoss when micro'd well.



I'm not trying to flame you Axon, but I don't see whats strong about 4 gateway vs a marine marauder ball. It definitely depends on the numbers, but marines with marauders with stim >>>>> Zs and stalkers.

I guess most protoss players doesn't want to acknowledge how strong 4 gate is. Grass is greener, etc. Anyway, if timed correctly, 4 gate is extremely dangerous. It's hard to mass enough units as terran to fend off a large four gate attack by the mid game.

Anyway, I'll give your suggested build a shot tonight. I'll do my usual and then nothing but barracks, MMM and upgrades. It'll probably work too. Sad

Try this, from your first rax, build one marine, then add the tech lab for marauders, as soon as you have 2 marauders push out.. The insane pressure this puts on protoss will more than likely throw the player off and you will single handedly(sp?) win, BUT make sure you keep your macro up and keep building production buildings during this initial attack.

I'm not sure how your micro is, do you just a+click then stand in place? or do you stop micro your units to keep distances from units? Concussive shells is also VERY VERY important so upgrade/research this as well.

Good Luck

 

[Dumac]

Day9 must hate Terran alot. The other two race for Funday Monday was only restricted by 1 unit (queen) or rush one-type (carrier, which wasn't even really restriction). Terran gets 3 units banned. The only way that build with no marines-marauders-tanks would work is that other guys not scouting and not pushing early. You have nothing to shoot back until you get a hellion. I guess the only viable build is Thor rush/drop.

Not making a queen as Zerg is HUUUUGE. Not only is your unit count cut by the lack of larvae injections, but you can't make a creep highway as well. Not to mention with queens, you will likely die to any sort of harassment, or a single air unit.

The carrier restriction as protoss is also huge. No expansion till carrier? That almost screams for a loss, since is forces protoss into one base play no matter how much the enemy expands while you dick around teching to an almost useless unit.

No Marine/Marauder/Tank isn't even that bad of a restriction. You just have to think creatively about your unit choices, instead of just making the same units ever single game, like most terrans do. You still have choices of a lot of effective units.

 

[Axon]

I'm not trying to flame you Axon, but I don't see whats strong about 4 gateway vs a marine marauder ball. It definitely depends on the numbers, but marines with marauders with stim >>>>> Zs and stalkers.

No worries. I can discuss these points rationally.

I'm just discussing how staggeringly potent a 4 (or more) gate strategy can be. If 12-16 stalkers hit me and I've only got 6-8 marauders and maybe 1-2 medvacs, it's not a good situation. And this frequently happens just as I'm getting rolling with Maras. And this assumes the toss does not have any sentries, Colossi, or HT, which come eventually. Again, grass is greener. Everyone likes to lament the drawbacks of their chosen "race."

Now, I've played some 4 gate myself and found it both strong and a touch easier than MMM - for me at least. To stand here and suggest that build, which allows you to warp in numerous units anywhere a pylon is down on the map is not extremely strong is a little silly. I'm not saying its imbal. I'm saying its extremely potent. I would anticipate a slight nerf of stalker warp in time of stalkers, as I would expect a nerf to Marauder HP.

 

[razor2025]

Not making a queen as Zerg is HUUUUGE. Not only is your unit count cut by the lack of larvae injections, but you can't make a creep highway as well. Not to mention with queens, you will likely die to any sort of harassment, or a single air unit.

The replays shows that it wasn't so bad. Just play the old zerg style of putting down hatcheries early. There's a reason why hatch costs only 300. In fact, not spending that mineral on queen showed that you can expand AND defend against early ground push. You can also build creep highway by putting down cheap buildings, you know.. like how the zerg did then. As for anti-air, use the 150 minerals to build more ground units. If Terran does early banshee, you know he has a thin wall and only 1-2 marines behind it, if any.

The carrier restriction as protoss is also huge. No expansion till carrier? That almost screams for a loss, since is forces protoss into one base play no matter how much the enemy expands while you dick around teching to an almost useless unit.

Again, carrier rush isn't so bad either. You can 2Gate into the carrier build, and use decent micro to hold off any early push. Once that first carrier comes out, you can abuse the cliffs to GG your opponent. Which was exactly what Huk did. It wasn't very big deviation from regular Protoss build. It's pretty close to early void push anyway.

No Marine/Marauder/Tank isn't even that bad of a restriction. You just have to think creatively about your unit choices, instead of just making the same units ever single game, like most terrans do. You still have choices of a lot of effective units.

Haha, typical QQ whine. The other two restriction didn't prevent Zerg or Protoss from building their first viable combat unit. This new one forces Terran to wall and pray till factory is up, or perform their most hated cheese/harrass, reapers (which was just nerfed hard). I'd be really surprised, if there are no replays with reaper harrass as opening move for Terran. How's that going to make things "more creative"?

 

[razor2025]

4 Gate is stronger because Marauder's conc shell loses effectiveness once you reach certain unit numbers. When you're going against 10+ stalkers, it's increasingly difficult to kite them well. I can understand Zerg QQing against Terran, but Protoss QQing against Terran is just sad.

 

[Dumac]

The replays shows that it wasn't so bad. Just play the old zerg style of putting down hatcheries early. There's a reason why hatch costs only 300. In fact, not spending that mineral on queen showed that you can expand AND defend against early ground push. You can also build creep highway by putting down cheap buildings, you know.. like how the zerg did then. As for anti-air, use the 150 minerals to build more ground units. If Terran does early banshee, you know he has a thin wall and only 1-2 marines behind it, if any.

Extra hatches are a LOT less effective, it isn't even funny. The only way to make a 2hatch in main viable is by having queens on each hatch to inject larva, which you can't do.

Spread creep with buildings? The only buildings that make creep are Hatches and Nydus worms, both of which are astoundingly not cost effective at spreading creep.

Also, no, a few more roaches aren't going to save you from a banshee. One banshee will completely destroy zerg, while terran can hide in a bunker with a marauder in it and kill 5 roaches. You NEED queens to stop banshee/voidray play, as teching straight to hydras isn't a viable option.

Again, carrier rush isn't so bad either. You can 2Gate into the carrier build, and use decent micro to hold off any early push. Once that first carrier comes out, you can abuse the cliffs to GG your opponent. Which was exactly what Huk did. It wasn't very big deviation from regular Protoss build. It's pretty close to early void push anyway.

No it isn't. A simple 3rax could crush any carrier build. There a reason carriers are almost never seen in competitive play.

Haha, typical QQ whine. The other two restriction didn't prevent Zerg or Protoss from building their first viable combat unit. This new one forces Terran to wall and pray till factory is up, or perform their most hated cheese/harrass, reapers (which was just nerfed hard). I'd be really surprised, if there are no replays with reaper harrass as opening move for Terran. How's that going to make things "more creative"?

You are the one QQing. You act is if many builds don't already pray their opponent doesn't rush them. You also act as if bunker/reaper rush still isn't extremly effective against zerg.

The point is, no competitive player would normally not make a queen or tech to carrier before expanding, however tons of terran pro players have gone light or almost nonexistance on marines/marauders.

Cry some more, and go hug your firebears while they tell you everything is alright.

 

[Dumac]

4 Gate is stronger because Marauder's conc shell loses effectiveness once you reach certain unit numbers. When you're going against 10+ stalkers, it's increasingly difficult to kite them well. I can understand Zerg QQing against Terran, but Protoss QQing against Terran is just sad.

No one is QQing here but you. Go whine somewhere else.

"Whaaa Day9 doesn't like terran. Whaaaaa somebody doesn't like my firebears. Whaaaaaa 4gate."

 

[xCxStylex]

Razor2025 said below ----> "4 Gate is stronger because Marauder's conc shell loses effectiveness once you reach certain unit numbers. When you're going against 10+ stalkers, it's increasingly difficult to kite them well."

Yes, when both sides have a large mass of units, then you could argue that yes, marauders lose some of their major advantages.

However, I say terran pump out marauders to rush out toss before he gets to that point to have that many stalkers. Early on, pumping straight marauders and rushing ASAP is very hard to defend unless the ramp is blocked.

I'm just discussing how staggeringly potent a 4 (or more) gate strategy can be. If 12-16 stalkers hit me and I've only got 6-8 marauders and maybe 1-2 medvacs, it's not a good situation. And this frequently happens just as I'm getting rolling with Maras. And this assumes the toss does not have any sentries, Colossi, or HT, which come eventually. Again, grass is greener. Everyone likes to lament the drawbacks of their chosen "race."

Now, I've played some 4 gate myself and found it both strong and a touch easier than MMM - for me at least. To stand here and suggest that build, which allows you to warp in numerous units anywhere a pylon is down on the map is not extremely strong is a little silly. I'm not saying its imbal. I'm saying its extremely potent. I would anticipate a slight nerf of stalker warp in time of stalkers, as I would expect a nerf to Marauder HP.

This example is very poor because you're going for medivacs way too early without any sort army. That early in the game when you have 6-8 marauders, you need more marauder as opposed to getting a medivac or two, which is not only taking time, but 3 gets you a few more marauders. If you're expecting some sort of a rush, you need way more units than just 8 marauders.

12-16 stalkers cost way more than 12-16 marauders, and if they are trying for a pure "stalker rush," which I think is pretty dumb, means you're losing badly on your macro or economy. 6-8 marauders is *less than half* the resources that the protoss player has spent on stalkers.

 

[eLiu]

This example is very poor because you're going for medivacs way too early without any sort army. That early in the game when you have 6-8 marauders, you need more marauder as opposed to getting a medivac or two, which is not only taking time, but 3 gets you a few more marauders. If you're expecting some sort of a rush, you need way more units than just 8 marauders.

12-16 stalkers cost way more than 12-16 marauders, and if they are trying for a pure "stalker rush," which I think is pretty dumb, means you're losing badly on your macro or economy. 6-8 marauders is *less than half* the resources that the protoss player has spent on stalkers.

I disagree. An early medivac + marauders can be strong as a harassment technique. Plop'em down, the marauders go "omnomnom tasty buildings/workers" and you pull out when the cavalry arrives. But before you go there, you need to have scouted the enemy & know that they aren't playing a strat that will kill you (e.g., 2gate).

I mean, 12-16 stalkers don't just "show up." If you were surprised to see that many stalkers, you did something very wrong. That's 1000+ minerals and 600 gas at least. And I don't mean you send out a worker when your first rax goes down... roll in and see a gateway and maybe a cybercore going down & leave. That scout told you there isn't any super early rush coming, great. You have to keep scouting/poking the front to see what he has.

Actually let's just do the comparison. 4 gating & having 12 stalkers costs at least:
4*150 (gates)
12*125 + 12*50 (stalk)
1*175 (cybercore) + 50 + 50 (warp)
=2325m, 650g

You have 2 medivacs & 8 marauders, that costs:
8*100 + 8*25 (marauders)
2*150 (rax) + 2*50 + 2*25 (labs)
2*150 + 2*100 (fact+port)
2*100 + 2*100 (meds)
=1700m + 850g
(All these units cost the same supply, so I'm disregarding depots/pylons. Also you should both have similar economies... which as terran means you spend LESS money on workers b/c you get mules)

Stalkers take 42s, marauders take 30s, medivacs take 42s. So at worst, your two armies probably take the same amt of time to build; but I bet terran's is faster. You've spent 200 more gas but 600(!!) fewer minerals. How did that happen? There could be a bunker or two more on your defense; many more marines; maybe even a tank (trade a medivac). On top of that, you can afford an expansion that your enemy cannot.

Back to scouting. If you see him 2-gating (perhaps indicated by a larger # of zealots/stalkers at the front), it's probably time to get more units. If you see like 1 zealot & nothing else, stargate is a good possibility so be ready to defend. If you see the 4gate (by scan, or by seeing a cronoboosted core, or by running inside and seeing the warping gates or whatev), then decide whether your harass will make it in time & if not, get more units! You do have defender's advantage, so it's OK if your production structures are a little later than his. Your reinforcements don't have to run across the map.

 

[Barfo]

Hmmm, I think I'm improving a little bit. I've been rushing with marines, and marauders if protoss, with good results (I know, shame on me ). So I was trying to do that to a Zerg player and he was pwning me with banelings. Changed my strat, made medivacs and landed in his base and destroyed most of it. Then I saw his profile and he is Platinum woot! (I'm gold). It may not sound like much but I've been the kind of player that if my strategy is countered = automatic game over for me so adapting my gameplay is kind of a big deal. My micro wasn't too bad either.

 

[ayabe]

Extra hatches are a LOT less effective, it isn't even funny. The only way to make a 2hatch in main viable is by having queens on each hatch to inject larva, which you can't do.

You can do pretty well with one queen if they are close together and it can be effective if done properly.

 

[Ika]

You can do pretty well with one queen if they are close together and it can be effective if done properly.

they were talking about no-queen play.

 

[Majes]

None of the good terran players out there will lose to a protoss 4 gate. I ran my 4 gate through placement and through gold and through platinum and only lost to one terran. Once I moved up to diamond after about 25 games I immediately lost to the next 4 terran I played...

In three of the games I actually controlled the game, took down their wall, and killed SCV's with drops. But when the MMM ball left their base it just walked across the map stim packed 3-4 times and killed everything I had. (4th game the guys marauder push raped me and he finished me with a banshee... ugh) The matchup of MMM vs 4-gate basically comes down to the effectiveness of stim pack/heal vs blink/charge.

While I would take blink and charge in a larger map with nice openings that allow my micro and multi tasking to shine, sadly most of the solo maps are incredibly tiny and force your units into terribly small spaces. This is where stim pack owns protoss.

So the terran players I play now either push into my base immediately with marine marauder when they scout and see my going gate/core or they sit in their base until they have a ball built with stim pack researched or they do some funky banshee tech. If I 4-gate I lose to each of these builds.

Last night I decided to try a 2 gate-robotics build against the terran I played. I scouted him pretty well and saw him leave his base to hit me early. I micro'd and stalled but he still entered my base with like 3 marines and 3 marauders against my 4 stalkers and 1 zealot. He also put down a bunker in my base. I pushed him out after I lost a gateway/core/pylon with 2 immortals and my probes. Then I massed immortal/sentry/stalker and beat his MMM/tank.

I will probably drop my 4-gate vs terran completely and focus on a 2-gate/robotics build for now.

 

[razor2025]

No one is QQing here but you. Go whine somewhere else.

"Whaaa Day9 doesn't like terran. Whaaaaa somebody doesn't like my firebears. Whaaaaaa 4gate."

LOL, the massive QQer can't stop the QQ.

 

[razor2025]

None of the good terran players out there will lose to a protoss 4 gate. I ran my 4 gate through placement and through gold and through platinum and only lost to one terran. Once I moved up to diamond after about 25 games I immediately lost to the next 4 terran I played...

In three of the games I actually controlled the game, took down their wall, and killed SCV's with drops. But when the MMM ball left their base it just walked across the map stim packed 3-4 times and killed everything I had. (4th game the guys marauder push raped me and he finished me with a banshee... ugh) The matchup of MMM vs 4-gate basically comes down to the effectiveness of stim pack/heal vs blink/charge.

While I would take blink and charge in a larger map with nice openings that allow my micro and multi tasking to shine, sadly most of the solo maps are incredibly tiny and force your units into terribly small spaces. This is where stim pack owns protoss.

So the terran players I play now either push into my base immediately with marine marauder when they scout and see my going gate/core or they sit in their base until they have a ball built with stim pack researched or they do some funky banshee tech. If I 4-gate I lose to each of these builds.

Last night I decided to try a 2 gate-robotics build against the terran I played. I scouted him pretty well and saw him leave his base to hit me early. I micro'd and stalled but he still entered my base with like 3 marines and 3 marauders against my 4 stalkers and 1 zealot. He also put down a bunker in my base. I pushed him out after I lost a gateway/core/pylon with 2 immortals and my probes. Then I massed immortal/sentry/stalker and beat his MMM/tank.

I will probably drop my 4-gate vs terran completely and focus on a 2-gate/robotics build for now.

Have you tried warping in your reinforcement with your 4-gate push? If you don't completely screw the push, you can usually proxy-warp in your reinforcements and turn the tide. Warpgate is huge advantage for Protoss on maps with long travel times.

 

[Glitchny]

Extra hatches are a LOT less effective, it isn't even funny. The only way to make a 2hatch in main viable is by having queens on each hatch to inject larva, which you can't do.

Spread creep with buildings? The only buildings that make creep are Hatches and Nydus worms, both of which are astoundingly not cost effective at spreading creep.

Also, no, a few more roaches aren't going to save you from a banshee. One banshee will completely destroy zerg, while terran can hide in a bunker with a marauder in it and kill 5 roaches. You NEED queens to stop banshee/voidray play, as teching straight to hydras isn't a viable option.



No it isn't. A simple 3rax could crush any carrier build. There a reason carriers are almost never seen in competitive play.



You are the one QQing. You act is if many builds don't already pray their opponent doesn't rush them. You also act as if bunker/reaper rush still isn't extremly effective against zerg.

The point is, no competitive player would normally not make a queen or tech to carrier before expanding, however tons of terran pro players have gone light or almost nonexistance on marines/marauders.

Cry some more, and go hug your firebears while they tell you everything is alright.

Have you watched the other funday mondays? where the no queen zergs win a ton of the games and how little not having the queen actually hurt them? It wasn't as big a deal as you seem to think. Most of them used overlords to create the creep highway and multiple in-base hatcheries to keep up production.

Also the carrier rush strat dominated. It worked in a top 10 ladder game Huk vs Bratok, Huk goes carrier before expansion and wins the game vs bratok going heavy barracks units. At no time does bratok have a chance. If one of the best Terran plays in NA can't beat it with a simple "3 rax" it's not that big of a deficit.

I've never seen a toss not make zealots or stalkers or a zerg with no zerglings or roaches but no marines marauders or tanks is obviously easy, just need to be creative

almost every player has either marines or marauders during a game.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Finally got back to laddering. Went 1-2, then decided to just try some barracks cheese. First one was 6 rax marine spam, second one was 2 proxy raxes at 11 supply and marine spam. Won both easily. Guess I'll just keep doing it until I either lose or die from shame.

 

[Aikouka]

almost every player has either marines or marauders during a game.

Well, what I think about it is... Day9 proposed the two restrictions on Zerg and Protoss thinking they'd be a big deal. I mean, who doesn't make Queens? Who really uses Carriers in 1v1 like that? But these Funday Mondays have shown that his attempts to "rock the boat" pretty much failed as people seemed to do just fine with the restrictions. I think the Carrier one was probably too lax to be honest... they should've been restricted from expanding until they attacked with at least 1 carrier .

But I mean... how easy is it to mix up Terran gameplay? Everyone thinks that MMM is overpowered, so just say that you can't use MM (and T). Although, to be honest, I would've liked to see the restriction on Tanks lifted a bit, because hey... tanks are kind of bad without support anyway. You'd most likely have to use tanks with something silly like Thors .

 

[timosyy]

...

I don't really get the point of this rant? I'm sure if you tune in on Monday you'll also see Terran winning all their games because... that's what gets shown on Funday Monday. Also the skill level wasn't incredibly high in the Zerg funday mondays. Huk's 1-base carrier is a different story.

I've never seen a toss not make zealots or stalkers or a zerg with no zerglings or roaches but no marines marauders or tanks is obviously easy, just need to be creative

almost every player has either marines or marauders during a game.

And almost every Zerg player has queens during a game? Honestly I think Terran will be fine. Reaper harass is strong early-game, and Hellion/Thor is actually really hard to deal with in the mid/end-game. Granted typically the Hellion/Thor is supported by Marines but... I'm sure enough Silver - Diamond players can make it work against mediocre-decent opponents.

Also... it's Day9. It's not like Blizzard told you not to use MM/Tanks. I sure as hell still used Queens during the Zerg funday monday week...

 

[Barfo]

Finally got back to laddering. Went 1-2, then decided to just try some barracks cheese. First one was 6 rax marine spam, second one was 2 proxy raxes at 11 supply and marine spam. Won both easily. Guess I'll just keep doing it until I either lose or die from shame.

I'm on the same boat, but I've shown some improvement adapting my strategy when my opponent counters the rush.

 

[DangerAardvark]

I'm on the same boat, but I've shown some improvement adapting my strategy when my opponent counters the rush.

I finally lost one. He scouted it and my marine micro wasn't good enough. Then I walled off at the choke to the natural on Desert Oasis, but the bastard went blink stalkers and owned me in the face. But unscouted its almost an auto-win.

 

[Kev]

does anyone play custom games? what are the best ones?

 

[eLiu]

wtf is it with impolite noobs on bnet? It isn't your partner's job to always be saving you from your own crappy play & crappy decisions.

If you chase after a reaper with ALL of your probes (and I have to fucking save you b/c you're too incompetent to scout & build stalkers), don't scream at me for "failing to leave a defense force for [the noob's] base" when the next attack kills you. B/c I'm going to build enough units to defend your base & my base from the combined enemy force... totally possible.

If you make 15 total drones and your army isn't big enough to fight anything, don't scream at me for failing to come to your defense... esp when I was off wiping out one of the enemy bases. That's right, if my force was in your base, *I* totally could have beaten off the attackers. *You* would've still been good for fucking nothing.

If you build all roaches and get raped by mutas, don't scream at me for 'not leaving marines in [the noob's] base'. I am not an on-demand turret force. My marines have better things to do than defend you from your inability to scout and tech.

When did it become my job to defend my base AND my "teammate's" base?! Buncha shitty assholes.

I mean, if you suck, then you suck. I suck at this game. But don't blame your own shortcomings on your teammate. I fall victim to shit like reaper cheese often enough, but I don't spam shit like "OMG WHY DIDNT YOU HELP ME" "YOU SUCK" etc. GAH.
Instead, try to be fucking useful or just gg out. Send resources, try to get your base restarted, offer to share unit control & do harassment or help your partner micro battles or something; don't be a dick.