** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[Dumac]

I have an exclusive Protoss account with 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 Diamond and 4v4 Plat.
In 1v1, it may work like the DTS but it could be a hit or miss. If they went mutas or hydra, you are in for some deep $hit.

So wrong. SO SO wrong.

First of all, most of the time, since you can force zerg to make zerglings or let them expand, they will usually not be on spire, hydra, or even lair tech when your phoenixes go to party in their base.

Second, if they went mutas, you WIN THE GAME, since phoenixes are a great muta counter. Mutas are what you should be hoping for, as phoenixes destroy mutas so hard it's not even funny, without barely getting scratched.

If they go hydra, which is the logical option for zerg since you are going stargate, then you tech switch to colossi while they are going hydra and simply destroy them once the real battle begins. In the meantime, you can keep the hydras busy and still easily snipe overlord by decent micro. Hydras are so slow that with the phoenixes speed you can still get decent damage and, at the very least, contain the zerg while colossi are building.

In 2v2+, you can't effectively win by massing pheonix. They are meant to be used to harass and take down heavy units with their lift. They work in conjunction with other units, like the VR, but massing Pheonix against the Zerg in mid/late game is a sure loss.

I don't play 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4, but for your bolded statement

You aren't supposed to MASS phoenix. Usually between 5 and 7 are built before/during tech switching. Their goal is to harass zerg by sniping overlords and (if possible) queens due to zerg's poor AA.

Any Plat/Diamond Zerg I have encountered have not taken serious damage from my Pheonix. Zergs either mass Hydra, or they can just build AA (Spore) around the base and place the OL on top and there is nothing you can do. A good Zerg player would instead send the lings to your base for total abdomination as you won't be able to counter them.

It sounds like you are just poor at using phoenixes and/or don't know when to transition.

Building VR instead of Pheonix is a better rush as it can do some devastating damage to the workers and their ground units without AA.

This, to me, sound like you don't understand the difference between a cheese build and a solid one. Building a VR just hoping to catch zerg off balance and end the game there is pretty cheese, since if they just made a few queens you will be denied. Phoenix build is much more versatile and less all-in.

I've watched over 100+ hrs of top tournament clips and yet not one protoss utilized corsair to counter the zergs.
Yes they are instances where corsairs are utilized to win, and yes, I've seen a worker's rush to win a tourney as well.

http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/BNet/3444
http://www.youplayoff.com/matchup/5826 - watch set 2
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/GSLSeason3Ro16Day2/3451 - here he almost pulls it off, but makes a lot of micro mistakes that end up costing him the game (also July's general badassery)

There are a bunch of other examples, but its a pain in the ass to hunt down videos.

Anyway, its a very effective strategy. There are threads on team liquid about it, it works on the professional level, etc. The execution is key, like with all builds, so you most likely don't execute it well.

 

[PUN]

So wrong. SO SO wrong.

First of all, most of the time, since you can force zerg to make zerglings or let them expand, they will usually not be on spire, hydra, or even lair tech when your phoenixes go to party in their base.

Second, if they went mutas, you WIN THE GAME, since phoenixes are a great muta counter. Mutas are what you should be hoping for, as phoenixes destroy mutas so hard it's not even funny, without barely getting scratched.

If they go hydra, which is the logical option for zerg since you are going stargate, then you tech switch to colossi while they are going hydra and simply destroy them once the real battle begins. In the meantime, you can keep the hydras busy and still easily snipe overlord by decent micro. Hydras are so slow that with the phoenixes speed you can still get decent damage and, at the very least, contain the zerg while colossi are building.



I don't play 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4, but for your bolded statement

You aren't supposed to MASS phoenix. Usually between 5 and 7 are built before/during tech switching. Their goal is to harass zerg by sniping overlords and (if possible) queens due to zerg's poor AA.



It sounds like you are just poor at using phoenixes and/or don't know when to transition.



This, to me, sound like you don't understand the difference between a cheese build and a solid one. Building a VR just hoping to catch zerg off balance and end the game there is pretty cheese, since if they just made a few queens you will be denied. Phoenix build is much more versatile and less all-in.



http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/BNet/3444
http://www.youplayoff.com/matchup/5826 - watch set 2
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/GSLSeason3Ro16Day2/3451 - here he almost pulls it off, but makes a lot of micro mistakes that end up costing him the game (also July's general badassery)

There are a bunch of other examples, but its a pain in the ass to hunt down videos.

Anyway, its a very effective strategy. There are threads on team liquid about it, it works on the professional level, etc. The execution is key, like with all builds, so you most likely don't execute it well.

You are so wrong.
1. You can pump hydras at a much quicker rate than pheonix thus still managing to overrun 2. You can Hydra the hell out and it'll spin you so hard that you wont even have the chance to micro. Plus, it won't matter lift&hunt when you have so many hydras on the ground already.
3. Like I said, Pheonix is a disrupting unit, NOT a game winning one. For you to say, building a pheonix always wins against a zerg just proves how terrible your opponents were.
4. You are missing the whole point here which makes you a vulnerable player. When you pheonix rush a zerg, you won't have much ground support. Any ling rush/roaches would be GG for you. Like I said, Pheonix is a unit that works in CONJUNCTION with other units, NOT by itself. You won't touch a dime on their ECO while their ground units rape your probes. Spores would be up immediately and OL can be massed in seconds.
5. There is nothing cheese about VR, 6 pool, z rush, harassing with Phoenix, etc. Any descent player can counter it. With my experiences with the pros, you are always better off with VR rush than pheonix against the zerg (Doesn't cost much more, Can attack ground/air, more devastating damage, can defend your ECO). Like you said, few queens would rape few pheonixes, while it is not the case with few VRs.

To me, you are either a poor zerg player (do you even know how long it takes to build a spore?) not being able to counter pheonix harass, or have just played a bad zerg opponents.

 

[Dumac]

You are so wrong.
1. You can pump hydras at a much quicker rate than pheonix thus still managing to overrun 2. You can Hydra the hell out and it'll spin you so hard that you wont even have the chance to micro. Plus, it won't matter lift&hunt when you have so many hydras on the ground already.

Once again, hydras are too slow. You don't ENGAGE the hydras with your phoenixes. You just tie them up. Usually hydras aren't even out when the phoenixes first roll in. Plus, forcing hydras is what you want, since almost all phoenix builds transition into colossi.

3. Like I said, Pheonix is a disrupting unit, NOT a game winning one. For you to say, building a pheonix always wins against a zerg just proves how terrible your opponents were.

Of course it is a disruption unit, but the DISRUPTION WINS THE GAME. You have to look bwetween the lines. Think subtly. You can't just say the unit that actually killed your opponent is the game winning one, when the unit you built earlier disrupted their economy, took map control, and completely threw a wrench in your whole plan. What usually wins games is some small mistake, problem, or interference.

4. You are missing the whole point here which makes you a vulnerable player. When you pheonix rush a zerg, you won't have much ground support. Any ling rush/roaches would be GG for you. Like I said, Pheonix is a unit that works in CONJUNCTION with other units, NOT by itself. You won't touch a dime on their ECO while their ground units rape your probes. Spores would be up immediately and OL can be massed in seconds.

You act like the only unit you would have is one phoenix. 1-2base can afford to produce more than just a few phoenixes from 1 stargate the entire time you can be amassing a ground army to steamroll them after your harassment has taken its toll. Taking out OL not only costs money, but more importantly it takes away map control and supply. Also forcing spore colonies is great. The fact that you make forcing spores sound like no big deal just proves how shallow your understanding of the game is. Not to mention that you make taking out overlords sound like no big deal, when it is a HUGE deal. I'm beginning to think you don't really get this game at all.

5. There is nothing cheese about VR, 6 pool, z rush, harassing with Phoenix, etc. Any descent player can counter it. With my experiences with the pros, you are always better off with VR rush than pheonix against the zerg (Doesn't cost much more, Can attack ground/air, more devastating damage, can defend your ECO). Like you said, few queens would rape few pheonixes, while it is not the case with few VRs.

There is nothing inherently cheesy about VR, but the way you suggest using them sounds pretty cheesy. Get out a VR asap and hope that it just happens to kill your opponent? Total cheese league. Phoenix builds are a much more reliable strategy, and provide versatility. A few queens will take out a few void rays, but they won't take out your phoenixes.

To me, you are either a poor zerg player (do you even know how long it takes to build a spore?) not being able to counter pheonix harass, or have just played a bad zerg opponents.

It sounds like you just don't understand how to use phoenixes. You make it sound like they have to encounter all these units. THEY DON'T. Phoenix's main strength is there speed, which allows them to fight only what they want to fight (unless you have fungal, which is what started this whole thing).

It seems pretty pointless to argue with you. Just because you don't know how to use the build doesn't make the build poor - just your execution. There have been many discussions about the strength of phoenix builds vs zerg. Phoenix builds have won pro matches in tournaments quite often. It isn't my fault you are too blind to see it, or too simpleminded to understand the game in its entirety. This will be my last reply to you, as you are too dense to absorb any of the information and evidence given to you.

 

[HomerX]

Against a Phoenix build i generally build a few spores at my mineral lines and mass a roach/ling/queen army... spread creep to your opponent as fast as you can and add some hydralisks to counter Void Rays / kill phoenixes that lift your units...
7-8 hydras and 5-6 queens are usually more than enough to stop lifting phoenixes and VRs while your roaches/lings destroy the ground army...

often the protoss invested a lot of gas in Stargate units and the Colossus tech, so his ground army is relatively weak during that time.

this works on small maps with relatively short ground distance... 5-6 active creep tumors spread the creep very fast to you opponent so you can use queens/hydras during an attack...

the weakness of the phoenix is that it can only attack ground units and not buildings.. so you only need to defend your mineral line... fly with your overlords over there and they are unable to harass you.

another possible counter is the eco baneling bust -> mass lings, build around 20 banelings to destroy the wall and attack zealots and run in with your lings... success depends on the amount of sentrys and their FFs...

 

[Ns1]

you guys should just 1v1 it and figure out who's right lol

 

[eLiu]

you guys should just 1v1 it and figure out who's right lol

I don't think anyone on this forum is good enough at SC2 to play a 1v1, or even a series of 1v1s, and then decide that a strategy is good/bad. There's too much variability in the quality of execution. If harassing phoenixes fail, who's to say that's b/c the idea is bad (I highly doubt it) or the P player didn't manage his forces well enough? Alternatively if phoenixes dominate, maybe Z's macro isn't up to par, or he's not spreading enough creep for hydras to be useful, or whatever.

It's just like no one looks at 'club-level' chess players for new developments in theory. People study the games played by grandmasters.

And on the issue of phoenixes, I would think that they're more like DTs. If you can get htem on the field before the enemy is ready to defend, you'll be able to throw a big wrench in their plans. You can fly in, lift queens, kill workers, snipe overlords (and it's not like they can just retreat all overlords into their base! A good Z will have OLs spread out everywhere for vision...), etc. If Z isn't ready, you'll do damage; you'll buy time to get out a decent army backed by say colossi, expand, etc. So then your strategy should focus on "what if Z is ready, then what?" What concessions do you force Z to make? How can I exploit that? And Z should be thinking, what did P sacrifice to get phoenixes? Maybe build a timing push around that.

A 10s drop seems like a big step. I wouldn't be surprised to see it go back up to 40? Though I really don't see phoenix play THAT often. Dumac posted some examples, but it does seem like an under-used unit. A lot of PvP games do seem to flow into "MOAR COLOSSSSIIIIIIIIIIII." The mobility associated w/phoenix play is fun to watch.

 

[JTsyo]

Is there a limit to what they can lift? Or can they pick up massive units too?

 

[PUN]

Dumac,

You are missing the whole point here.
1. VR rush does more disruption than Phoenix...This IS A FACT.
2. You don't need to build spore colonieS, but just ONE spore colony to take on millions+ of phoenix.
3. Phoenix do not roll before hydras. If they do, you are not even a descent zerg player. This is like saying the rate of expansion of P/Terran is the same as the Zerg.
4. You won't have 1-2 base, 2+ gates with ground units when doing a phoenix harass. More like 1 base, 1 gate (with 1-2z) and stargate with phoenixes.
When he sees your phoenix, he'll spore, hydra and rush with the lings.
You make it sound like you have an expansion, tons of ground units while harassing with the phoenix but I don't see that possible without a mineral hack.
IF (i hope not) you expand, build ground units then harass with the phoenix, that would be too late to do any significant harm.

If the zergs don't have the hydras/mutas, the most damage you would do with 1-2 phoenix is 1-2 OL before the spore goes up. Is that really worth it?
1-2 VR would take spores/OL, any unit there in their base.

Phoenix comes useful when the lift comes in handy. Rushing with the phoenix to hunt the OL is just plain stupid and wasteful.

Again, I've seen PLENTY of workers rush in the tourney. Does that mean it's a successful strategy? Maybe, but I wouldn't risk it as there are plenty of better ones. Your Phoenix is DEFINITELY a poor one as there are 10+ better strats for Protoss to easily take on the zergs.

 

[DrunkenSano]

From watching the pro matches, early Phoenixes aren't used for OL hunting, that would wasteful. They use them for early scouting and/or lifting Queens to kill, and drones to disrupt the zerg econ.

 

[PUN]

I don't think anyone on this forum is good enough at SC2 to play a 1v1, or even a series of 1v1s, and then decide that a strategy is good/bad. There's too much variability in the quality of execution. If harassing phoenixes fail, who's to say that's b/c the idea is bad (I highly doubt it) or the P player didn't manage his forces well enough? Alternatively if phoenixes dominate, maybe Z's macro isn't up to par, or he's not spreading enough creep for hydras to be useful, or whatever.

It's just like no one looks at 'club-level' chess players for new developments in theory. People study the games played by grandmasters.

And on the issue of phoenixes, I would think that they're more like DTs. If you can get htem on the field before the enemy is ready to defend, you'll be able to throw a big wrench in their plans. You can fly in, lift queens, kill workers, snipe overlords (and it's not like they can just retreat all overlords into their base! A good Z will have OLs spread out everywhere for vision...), etc. If Z isn't ready, you'll do damage; you'll buy time to get out a decent army backed by say colossi, expand, etc. So then your strategy should focus on "what if Z is ready, then what?" What concessions do you force Z to make? How can I exploit that? And Z should be thinking, what did P sacrifice to get phoenixes? Maybe build a timing push around that.

A 10s drop seems like a big step. I wouldn't be surprised to see it go back up to 40? Though I really don't see phoenix play THAT often. Dumac posted some examples, but it does seem like an under-used unit. A lot of PvP games do seem to flow into "MOAR COLOSSSSIIIIIIIIIIII." The mobility associated w/phoenix play is fun to watch.

I agree, there are lots of variables that can win the game.
I just dont think pheonix rush is a good one as the Zergs can easily counter.
You also have one gate with a phoenix rush so lings would totally rape the base.

Do I know how to play with the phoenix? yes definitely better than any average Platinum/Diamond players, which probably includes you Dumac. I do micro better than macro, thus my strength is small units, early attack and their given abilities.

Like ELiu said, we don't see pheonix build that often. This is not because players don't know how to play, but more because they are underwhelming. You can argue about its strength all you want, and I can do the same with my SCV Rush, Canon rush with proxy gate next to their nexus.

 

[PUN]

From watching the pro matches, early Phoenixes aren't used for OL hunting, that would wasteful. They use them for early scouting and/or lifting Queens to kill, and drones to disrupt the zerg econ.

Yes, they are excellent for scouting and wasting queens (it would only work once as the spores go up) They can also limit the zergs visibilty by retracting the OL to their base.

5-7 Phoenix like Dumac had mentioned is WAY TOO much for an early build harass.
If your objective is to scout, get 1-2 phoenix. If you want to harass and do some damage, get 1-2 VR instead.

 

[PUN]

Is there a limit to what they can lift? Or can they pick up massive units too?

They can lift as heavy as Ultralisk

 

[JTsyo]

They can lift as heavy as Ultralisk

Does a Thor or Colossus weigh more?

I think what we need is a replay from a professional game where phoenix harass is used and see when it was used and how it turned out.

 

[HomerX]

1. VR rush does more disruption than Phoenix...This IS A FACT.

huh?

i really have to disagree here... most zerg players get at least 3 queens in the beginning... personally if playing defensive/teching fast i build around 4-5 queens...

so the initial 1-2 VRs have to retreat or get killed by the queens...

then i can build a spire and go with a muta/ling build (which is my preferred build against P)

if they go for Phoenix they can quickly fly in, kill a queen or a few drones and fly away.... and i have to change my plans because muta is not the best unit against mass phoenix...

2. You don't need to build spore colonieS, but just ONE spore colony to take on millions+ of phoenix.

really? so if i have 10 Phoenix and i fly to your mineral line where you build one spore colonie do you think i have to retreat asap?
or can you probably imagine that these 10 phoenixes kill the queen and a handfull of workers in a few seconds while the damaged phoenix gets microed away from your spore colonie?

you can dmg the shields of a hadfull of phoenixes with 1 spore colonie but they will kill a lot of your workers...

IF (i hope not) you expand, build ground units then harass with the phoenix, that would be too late to do any significant harm.

why? if the zerg gets mutas, the phoenixes are a great counter unit... for worker killing you need a good amount of them in order to lift the workers up... if the zerg went hydra you still have a great scouting/harassment unit while teching to colossi...
getting phoenixes too early will make you vulnerable to a quick counter attack... especially because the harassent capability of the early phoenixes is limited by their lifting capability..

in big numbers they can do a lot of dmg very quickly and even engage a group of hydras without taking a lot of dmg... a unit that gets lifted up does not shoot any more...

 

[PUN]

Does a Thor or Colossus weigh more?

I think what we need is a replay from a professional game where phoenix harass is used and see when it was used and how it turned out.

OOPS! sorry I hope you didn't try to lift a Ultralisks.
I meant to say Hydralisk.

Massive classified units cannot be lifted, such as Thors, Ultralisks, Colossus.
You can lift pretty much anything else.

 

[PUN]

huh?

i really have to disagree here... most zerg players get at least 3 queens in the beginning... personally if playing defensive/teching fast i build around 4-5 queens...

so the initial 1-2 VRs have to retreat or get killed by the queens...

then i can build a spire and go with a muta/ling build (which is my preferred build against P)

if they go for Phoenix they can quickly fly in, kill a queen or a few drones and fly away.... and i have to change my plans because muta is not the best unit against mass phoenix...



really? so if i have 10 Phoenix and i fly to your mineral line where you build one spore colonie do you think i have to retreat asap?
or can you probably imagine that these 10 phoenixes kill the queen and a handfull of workers in a few seconds while the damaged phoenix gets microed away from your spore colonie?

you can dmg the shields of a hadfull of phoenixes with 1 spore colonie but they will kill a lot of your workers...



why? if the zerg gets mutas, the phoenixes are a great counter unit... for worker killing you need a good amount of them in order to lift the workers up... if the zerg went hydra you still have a great scouting/harassment unit while teching to colossi...
getting phoenixes too early will make you vulnerable to a quick counter attack... especially because the harassent capability of the early phoenixes is limited by their lifting capability..

in big numbers they can do a lot of dmg very quickly and even engage a group of hydras without taking a lot of dmg... a unit that gets lifted up does not shoot any more...

I've NEVER EVER seen 3 queens up when 1-2VRs are ready to go (I can get 2 VR in less than 6mins without much sacrificing eco). I actually just played 1v1 game against a zerg who started with 4 queens. My 7 Zs went in and wiped them out clean and gg.

When I see 5-10 phoenixes come in, I just build 2 spores and mass hydras OR I just mass lings (if I find that they had straight teched to phoenix) and rush to their base.

Phoenix is like DTS, it's pretty much all or nothing (Worse than VR). You can build one or two to scout and harass but that stargate should be used to transport and mass VR later.

I agree that building phoenix early in the game is vulnerable (especially lings), but Dumac seems to think he can mass enough phoenix to cause disruption while maintaining enough ground units....only possible with a mineral hack.

I was exaggerating a bit with 1 spore against 10 phoenixes, just to keep my point acrossed.
When someone has 10 PX, Zergs probably have mass units to wipe you out anyways.
Personally, I do not like Muta/Ling combo but I prefer Ling/Corruptor. I use to exclusively play Zealots/Corsair(phoenix)

 

[eLiu]

Phoenix is like DTS, it's pretty much all or nothing (Worse than VR). You can build one or two to scout and harass but that stargate should be used to transport and mass VR later.

I don't think DTs are all-in *at all*. Check out day 9 daily #215, EGINkA(P) v Fenix(T). DTs were used as a method to keep the opponent in his base, on the defensive, buying P the time he needs to expand & safely get colossi w/o sacrificing pre-colossi ground army size. DTs are also useful to mix a few into your army (zomg they're hard to see), or slip one or two into the enemy's base when you're fighting elsewhere (zomg they may not notice/have detection everywhere).

I feel like phoenixes can be used in a similar style to this. They throw a wrench into your opponent's plans. They aren't as brutal as DTs, but they cost less & require less time to get out. The stargate is also not a dead-end structure. So you get to do some scouting & harassment. I'd wager that scouting info + supply blocking your opponent (by sniping OLs) & the subsequent denial of map control (via OLs) is worth the cost. Maybe you could couple a timing push with the supply block--in that time, you get to make units but your opponent is stuck. Having phoenixes out will also make the zerg think twice about going mass muta... which as I understand is a big issue for many P.

 

[HomerX]

I've NEVER EVER seen 3 queens up when 1-2VRs are ready to go (I can get 2 VR in less than 6mins without much sacrificing eco). I actually just played 1v1 game against a zerg who started with 4 queens. My 7 Zs went in and wiped them out clean and gg.

never ever? actually most Zerg FE builds have a 3th queen mixed in in the beginning in order to improve creep spread...

personally, against a P i love mass queen (5-6) in the beginning, combined with some spines... it allows to skip speed and frees up a lot of larva, because you dont need a lot of zerglings against early zealots/stalkers...
because of transfusion you will be able to stop early aggression without loosing a single unit and you can powerdrone and tech.
and with 5-6 queens out in the field there is no chance VR harass will do any dmg...
so if the P decided to do anything other than FE he is already behind..

 

[PUN]

Building 3 queens in the beginning is a huge risk IMO. Zealot rush will end the game right there. Having 3 queens also lags u in Eco initially, so any early mid rush is a game.
I usually get 1 queen per ling batch...it is still risky but with the right micro and mates help it can be managed.

When u are playing a team game and u have limited ground units with 3+ queens, u don't stand a chance. You always need units to d or early strike to disrupt. Early expansion, massing queen early in the game is jet too risky.

 

[PUN]

I don't think DTs are all-in *at all*. Check out day 9 daily #215, EGINkA(P) v Fenix(T). DTs were used as a method to keep the opponent in his base, on the defensive, buying P the time he needs to expand & safely get colossi w/o sacrificing pre-colossi ground army size. DTs are also useful to mix a few into your army (zomg they're hard to see), or slip one or two into the enemy's base when you're fighting elsewhere (zomg they may not notice/have detection everywhere).

I feel like phoenixes can be used in a similar style to this. They throw a wrench into your opponent's plans. They aren't as brutal as DTs, but they cost less & require less time to get out. The stargate is also not a dead-end structure. So you get to do some scouting & harassment. I'd wager that scouting info + supply blocking your opponent (by sniping OLs) & the subsequent denial of map control (via OLs) is worth the cost. Maybe you could couple a timing push with the supply block--in that time, you get to make units but your opponent is stuck. Having phoenixes out will also make the zerg think twice about going mass muta... which as I understand is a big issue for many P.

I say dts are all or nothing because they cost damn too much. I would call dts a tier 3 unit, since it requires another tech building on top of tier 2 building. It can be easily countered by a cheap observer from tier 2 structure.

 

[HomerX]

Building 3 queens in the beginning is a huge risk IMO. Zealot rush will end the game right there. Having 3 queens also lags u in Eco initially, so any early mid rush is a game.
I usually get 1 queen per ling batch...it is still risky but with the right micro and mates help it can be managed.

When u are playing a team game and u have limited ground units with 3+ queens, u don't stand a chance. You always need units to d or early strike to disrupt. Early expansion, massing queen early in the game is jet too risky.

so having an additional unit(queen) will make you more vulnerable to an early attack?
It wont lag you behind in eco because it allows you to skip a lot of lings and build more drones.

3 spines and 3 additional queens are 3 larva and 900minerals... and you can stop early ground aggression with ease e.g. 7 Zealots... doing the same with lings you need at least 24 lings (~3 lings/zealot) which is 12 larva and 600 min... And you will loose a lot of these zerglings!
So you can have 9 more drones which will gather the 300 additional minerals in no time... you can tech faster to lair because you can skip the zergling speed, you are totally safe if the P goes early VR and you can spread creep like a pro..

The problem ist that some zergs are not building any/enough spines when going mass queen which makes them vulnerable to an early attack or they are not saving energy for transfusions... having ~3-4 transfusions against a force of ~7-8 Zealots or 2 VRs is HUGE!


And of course this is a 1vs1 strategy! and not usable against 6-pooling zergs etc...

 

[DrunkenSano]

Three queens is almost necessary when you play Zerg 1v1 because creep spread is incredibly important. It's free vision as a zerg and movement bonus for your ground units, having the third queen also keeps harassing VRs at bay and you won't have to decide on whether to inject larvae or poop out a creep tumor.

 

[PUN]

so having an additional unit(queen) will make you more vulnerable to an early attack?
It wont lag you behind in eco because it allows you to skip a lot of lings and build more drones.

3 spines and 3 additional queens are 3 larva and 900minerals... and you can stop early ground aggression with ease e.g. 7 Zealots... doing the same with lings you need at least 24 lings (~3 lings/zealot) which is 12 larva and 600 min... And you will loose a lot of these zerglings!
So you can have 9 more drones which will gather the 300 additional minerals in no time... you can tech faster to lair because you can skip the zergling speed, you are totally safe if the P goes early VR and you can spread creep like a pro..

The problem ist that some zergs are not building any/enough spines when going mass queen which makes them vulnerable to an early attack or they are not saving energy for transfusions... having ~3-4 transfusions against a force of ~7-8 Zealots or 2 VRs is HUGE!


And of course this is a 1vs1 strategy! and not usable against 6-pooling zergs etc...

Yes that strategy works on 1v1 but not 2v2+ as the rushes come in 2v1. If they rush you, you may still win over with the queens and spine. but if they end up at your mates, you would have no units to support him.

 

[DrunkenSano]

Yeah, in 2v2 it is a completely different game and strategy. I've found that you almost have to go low tech units first and group them up with your teammate asap, then defend or push out together. While you are pushing out, as long as you can take out most of your opponents units before losing yours or even making a slight dent into their base, then you can expand or tech up.

Any early tech rush seems to spell doom because you won't have enough to counter their rush.

 

[PUN]

Yeah, in 2v2 it is a completely different game and strategy. I've found that you almost have to go low tech units first and group them up with your teammate asap, then defend or push out together. While you are pushing out, as long as you can take out most of your opponents units before losing yours or even making a slight dent into their base, then you can expand or tech up.

Any early tech rush seems to spell doom because you won't have enough to counter their rush.

Even 4v4 is different from 2v2/3v3, but the main strategy is to delay the teching until enough units are out to defend and reinforce your mates.

In 1v1, building D then teching with queens with fast expansion helps tremendously. You really dont need much ground units as you don't need to d but yourself.
I usually get sunken with lings with massive queens and early exp/tech and wait for counter on my base instead of striking first.