** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[Molondo]

so you plan on never attacking?
when they have 4 bases, 5-6 hatches, they can replenish their army faster than you can mobilize your terran army.
so you're just going to turtle your 2, maybe 3 bases while he mines out the rest of the map.

you can't even early harass them anymore because they nerfed reapers and bunkers. i never see reapers used anymore.

You are so wrong about harassing. Terran have multiple options to open up against zerg, and have the ability to not set their economy back. Zerg have to run around the tech tree to try to match your opening while having to drone up constantly.

 

[Dumac]

you can't even early harass them anymore because they nerfed reapers and bunkers. i never see reapers used anymore.

Haha, you really thing reapers are the best Terran harass? No wonder you are having problems with this...

 

[KIAman]

For all you Zergs, how fast can you saturate your main and natural and finish a spire? It seems a lot of players don't know how to deal with a muta harass.

 

[rcpratt]

Hey guys, my buddy wants to try sc2 but I already gave both of my trial keys away - anybody still have one on them? I'd appreciate it.

 

[PUN]

For all you Zergs, how fast can you saturate your main and natural and finish a spire? It seems a lot of players don't know how to deal with a muta harass.

IMO, mutas harrass is worthless.
Marines from Terran, Stalkers from Toss can easily stop low hp/shield, high cost mutas.

I am starting to hate 2 terran team on 3v3/4v4. MMM build really owns, unless they hold off on the attack, and you have colossus/brood lords to fend them off.

 

[coreyb]

LOL

muta harass is worthless?

tell that to all the professional starcraft 1 and 2 players out there.

 

[PUN]

LOL

muta harass is worthless?

tell that to all the professional starcraft 1 and 2 players out there.

LOL you must play much bronze or silver players perhaps?

many zerg pros don't go mutas harass. In fact, most will go lings and micro the heck out of you. Any 5min+ games have hydras mixed in.

Yes, pros do Mutas, Thors, Pheonix/voids, dts, etc harrass, but they are not commonly done (vs lings/hydras, mmm, stalker/sentry, etc)

fyi, i am in diamond/plat for toss, master/diamond for terran

 

[coreyb]

I regularly watch professional starcraft 1 and 2 matches. I have a membership at gomtv.net. I've seen hundreds of matches and muta harass is pretty damn common.

Z v T you will see the zergs use mutas to harass the mineral line, then when the T puts up defense for that, they will try to pick off tanks...or go for undefended bases. or go for reinforcing units. muta harass is useful as hell and is used A LOT in the professional scene.

 

[JJChicken]

I regularly watch professional starcraft 1 and 2 matches. I have a membership at gomtv.net. I've seen hundreds of matches and muta harass is pretty damn common.

Z v T you will see the zergs use mutas to harass the mineral line, then when the T puts up defense for that, they will try to pick off tanks...or go for undefended bases. or go for reinforcing units. muta harass is useful as hell and is used A LOT in the professional scene.

Muta harass isn't that good to be honest. July tried doing it today and it seems pretty fail against thor + marine + tank builds. Although he played poorly as well.

I think hydra roach is the strongest zerg play at the moment.

 

[eLiu]

Muta harass isn't that good to be honest. July tried doing it today and it seems pretty fail against thor + marine + tank builds. Although he played poorly as well.

I think hydra roach is the strongest zerg play at the moment.

Uh... if you saw your opponent making thor/marine, that should be a cue to potentially halt muta production or scale it back.

Yeah, mutas aren't going to win in a stand-up fight against thors & marines. That ain't news.

But you harassment options still exist against that enemy. Thors+tanks = slow. You fly mutas into his mineral line, get a couple of shots off and scoot away before teh reinforcements arrive. Then hit the expansion. Then bounce back and try to take down a supply depot or building add-on at the edge of the main. Then bounce somewhere else.
Oh what's taht? he's going for a 3rd? swing teh mutas over there and sack it before his army can do anything.

Esp on certain maps, having a group of mutas roaming around to pick off SCVs here and there, pick off depots, add-ons, & maintain map control can be super valuable.

Meanwhile, build up your roach/ling army. When teh confrontation comes, sic the mutas on the tanks and you'll mop up the rest. With the speed, roach/ling is fast too; if you get him distracted chasing your mutas, run the main army into his natural and plow it. Basically you have a fast army, he has a really slow one. Focus your all of your tactics on that. (And expand expand expand)


Or... play 2v2, where the opponents can defend against your mutas all they want. Meanwhile I'm sitting here hard-countering their defense units. XD This combo works awesome for me & my friend.

 

[HomerX]

IMO, mutas harrass is worthless.
Marines from Terran, Stalkers from Toss can easily stop low hp/shield, high cost mutas.

thats wrong... stalkers can NOT easily stop Muta harass... first you need Blink stalkers and even then the mutas can often escape without suffering much dmg...

Against Protoss, muta harass can be really strong especially if the P has to defend 2-3 bases...
Muta/ling was very common in zvp!

But Protoss learned to adapt and the metagame shifted to Roach/hydra... not because muta harass was bad but the Protoss had some nice timing windows if the zerg went early muta (6 gate timing attack e.g.)...

fyi, i am in diamond/plat for toss, master/diamond for terran

a different account for each race? and what is you 1vs1 rating? Master or diamond? both at the same time is not possible (or do you have 2 different accounts for terran???)

 

[onza]

Most pro's these days if playing ZERG will go roach / hydra / lings. Muta/ling is common but it depends on what race you face.

IMO Muta's are VERY powerful versus a protoss.

 

[Kabob]

General Starcraft 2 question...

I built my PC back in '04 and it's a dinosaur now (good ol' X800 XT PE doesn't cut it). I've been contemplating getting a new rig just for SC2 (and eventually Diablo 3) but I don't want to go nuts on a pixel crunching powerhouse.

Around what sort of specs am I going to need to run the game stable with moderate - good graphics?

*Edit* Whoops, just relized there's a general SC2 thread further south on the page. Feel free to move this question there mods.*

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

LOL you must play much bronze or silver players perhaps?

many zerg pros don't go mutas harass. In fact, most will go lings and micro the heck out of you. Any 5min+ games have hydras mixed in.

Yes, pros do Mutas, Thors, Pheonix/voids, dts, etc harrass, but they are not commonly done (vs lings/hydras, mmm, stalker/sentry, etc)

fyi, i am in diamond/plat for toss, master/diamond for terran

you could not be more wrong.
pros almost never go hydra vs terran.
it's always lings/blings and mutas, and sometimes roaches.

 

[PUN]

I regularly watch professional starcraft 1 and 2 matches. I have a membership at gomtv.net. I've seen hundreds of matches and muta harass is pretty damn common.

Z v T you will see the zergs use mutas to harass the mineral line, then when the T puts up defense for that, they will try to pick off tanks...or go for undefended bases. or go for reinforcing units. muta harass is useful as hell and is used A LOT in the professional scene.

Heck no it's not common...unless you are only picking mutas harrass play.

Mutas are terrible against the terrans due to early marines and vikings/banshee push.
Mutas may surprise the toss or against the other zergs, but it's tough to pull due to their low hp/shield and high cost

 

[PUN]

you could not be more wrong.
pros almost never go hydra vs terran.
it's always lings/blings and mutas, and sometimes roaches.

I never said hydra was a good move against the terran. I said Pros do play alot of Hydras.

 

[PUN]

thats wrong... stalkers can NOT easily stop Muta harass... first you need Blink stalkers and even then the mutas can often escape without suffering much dmg...

Against Protoss, muta harass can be really strong especially if the P has to defend 2-3 bases...
Muta/ling was very common in zvp!

But Protoss learned to adapt and the metagame shifted to Roach/hydra... not because muta harass was bad but the Protoss had some nice timing windows if the zerg went early muta (6 gate timing attack e.g.)...



a different account for each race? and what is you 1vs1 rating? Master or diamond? both at the same time is not possible (or do you have 2 different accounts for terran???)

Stalkers are actually a easy counter for Mutas. Few hits will take them down. Especially with blink, you can catch up and hit.

By going mutas harrass, you are teching and sacraficing early push/Def.
In 1v1, you may win a game or two by surprising the ground unit only or undefended mineral line.

I have a separate account for Toss/Terran/Zerg.
For toss, I am in Diamond for 3v3, Platinum for 1v1/2v2/4v4 (got dropped from dimond on 4v4 as you get paired up with noobs and dropouts)

For Terran, Masters for 1v1, Diamond 2v2/3v3 platinum 4v4.
For zerg, mixture of plat and gold.

Yes, i play alot of sc2. I am actually a good acquaintance of top 10 pros in the world (met through sponsored events). Played dozens of matches with 2min head start on my end (to make the game fair)....got destroyed by lings & stalker in 6-8mins into the game. Each and every game never lasted more than 10mins. To me, these pros key-mapped each lings and micro them...

 

[KIAman]

By going mutas harrass, you are teching and sacraficing early push/Def.
In 1v1, you may win a game or two by surprising the ground unit only or undefended mineral line.

That is why I'm asking how fast players can saturate their main and natural and go spire. I got my timing down to around the 12 minute mark at which point I haven't sacrificed any macro unless the other player is relentlessly harrassing.

My micro is probably my strongest skill. I group my slings into groups of 6 to feign a frontal attack while I sneak my mutas around mineral lines and mop up workers. Bad players will chase my slings all over the map while trying to build air defenses of which I simply take out. Some march their army right into my base forcing them to go all in at that point. The smart ones pull their army back to defend.

I haven't played any league games. Once I start league, I want my game to be spot on. I only play around 10 games a night so once I start playing league matches, I would love to play with mighty anandtech.

 

[HomerX]

By going mutas harrass, you are teching and sacraficing early push/Def.
In 1v1, you may win a game or two by surprising the ground unit only or undefended mineral line.

Yes but the zerg is forced to build early roaches/hydras for def because the protoss adapted to the muta harass and started timing attacks around the ~9-10 minute mark which kills a fast muta zerg...

a few months ago, nearly every protoss did a 4 gate which could be defended with lings/spines and queens... and you could transition into mutas afterwards...
the 9-10 min attacks are very difficult to handle without roaches/hydras and you wont have enough mutas by that time...

Stalkers are actually a easy counter for Mutas. Few hits will take them down. Especially with blink, you can catch up and hit.

stalker dmg is pretty low compared to marines etc... they are only a counter if they are not outnumber by the mutas and if you went for a berserker/sentry heavy composition you wont have THAT many stalkers.

so muta harass forces the p to build a lot of stalkers, research blink, and build cannons... if the P moves out, the mutas have some time to do dmg to the workers and be right back to the base in order to defend...

The Problem ist that you can not rely on mutas in the first 10-12 minutes because every good P will just kill you....

adding ~10 mutas in the midgame is a good idea against P... you need the spire anyways to deal with colossi...

 

[namtran512]

2.2k Master T/P player here.


Mutas are pathetically horrible against both races. Too gas heavy, requires you to take 3rd too fast opening you up to 2 base pushes, and in general is very weak in straight up confrontations.


TvZ wise, it's bad because T has alot of options to deal with Mutas, and have a 2 base timing push that really cripples Z hard if they attempt to go Mutas (which T will see with a scan, as all good T players will do). Unless you are really good at defending / timing, Mutas are a very bad choice and it is better to stick to the safer and just as effective Mass Roach/Sling/Bling = > Ultra/Broodlord/Infestor path.

PvZ wise it's horrible because a +1 6 gate attack will kill you as soon as your Mutas pop after a 14 hatch or a speedling = > hatch opening.

 

[PUN]

Yes but the zerg is forced to build early roaches/hydras for def because the protoss adapted to the muta harass and started timing attacks around the ~9-10 minute mark which kills a fast muta zerg...

a few months ago, nearly every protoss did a 4 gate which could be defended with lings/spines and queens... and you could transition into mutas afterwards...
the 9-10 min attacks are very difficult to handle without roaches/hydras and you wont have enough mutas by that time...




stalker dmg is pretty low compared to marines etc... they are only a counter if they are not outnumber by the mutas and if you went for a berserker/sentry heavy composition you wont have THAT many stalkers.

so muta harass forces the p to build a lot of stalkers, research blink, and build cannons... if the P moves out, the mutas have some time to do dmg to the workers and be right back to the base in order to defend...

The Problem ist that you can not rely on mutas in the first 10-12 minutes because every good P will just kill you....

adding ~10 mutas in the midgame is a good idea against P... you need the spire anyways to deal with colossi...

I completely agree with what you are saying. I was trying to tell corey that early mutas harrass is not a good decision. Mixing mutas with lings in mid game just owns Protoss with stalker sentry zealot build (unless you really know how to micro those sentries).

When mutas come harrass my base, I just warp back while my works are near my canons away from the nexus.

 

[PUN]

That is why I'm asking how fast players can saturate their main and natural and go spire. I got my timing down to around the 12 minute mark at which point I haven't sacrificed any macro unless the other player is relentlessly harrassing.

My games typically last around 12mins. 12min mark is not considered mutas harrass, it's a mid game push.
You either sacrafice resources with harrass or push with units in midgame.

2.2k Master T/P player here.


Mutas are pathetically horrible against both races. Too gas heavy, requires you to take 3rd too fast opening you up to 2 base pushes, and in general is very weak in straight up confrontations.


TvZ wise, it's bad because T has alot of options to deal with Mutas, and have a 2 base timing push that really cripples Z hard if they attempt to go Mutas (which T will see with a scan, as all good T players will do). Unless you are really good at defending / timing, Mutas are a very bad choice and it is better to stick to the safer and just as effective Mass Roach/Sling/Bling = > Ultra/Broodlord/Infestor path.

PvZ wise it's horrible because a +1 6 gate attack will kill you as soon as your Mutas pop after a 14 hatch or a speedling = > hatch opening.

Exactly.
I've also seen siege tanks with scv/turrets just owning mutas. Just build and camp outside their base early in the game (once 2-3 sieges are out). Zergs without an expansion is epic fail.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I haven't played any league games. Once I start league, I want my game to be spot on. I only play around 10 games a night so once I start playing league matches, I would love to play with mighty anandtech.

so who are you using this "strategy" on?
1v1 friends?
AI?

 

[PUN]

so who are you using this "strategy" on?
1v1 friends?
AI?

hehe, i was wondering the same. But with his name being "KIA"man, it's in his korean blood to do well in the league.
If he is beating nightmare AI, i'd give him props....they are impossible to beat.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Stalkers are actually a easy counter for Mutas. Few hits will take them down. Especially with blink, you can catch up and hit.

By going mutas harrass, you are teching and sacraficing early push/Def.
In 1v1, you may win a game or two by surprising the ground unit only or undefended mineral line.

I have a separate account for Toss/Terran/Zerg.
For toss, I am in Diamond for 3v3, Platinum for 1v1/2v2/4v4 (got dropped from dimond on 4v4 as you get paired up with noobs and dropouts)

For Terran, Masters for 1v1, Diamond 2v2/3v3 platinum 4v4.
For zerg, mixture of plat and gold.

Yes, i play alot of sc2. I am actually a good acquaintance of top 10 pros in the world (met through sponsored events). Played dozens of matches with 2min head start on my end (to make the game fair)....got destroyed by lings & stalker in 6-8mins into the game. Each and every game never lasted more than 10mins. To me, these pros key-mapped each lings and micro them...

pro zerg will almost always go mutas. it's their bread and butter. it is like MM for zerg.

you're describing an early surprise muta harass which is not going to work in the pro level because the opponent always scouts.
but they do use mutas to supplement lings, to attack expansions, to harass the main when their army is out of position, to cut off reinforcements.
they use it for map control, pop in the main to draw the defense back, scoot and shoot, etc. and it's very effective because they are quick and can get in and out without sacrificing more than a couple of units. while the D is drawn back, they are spreading creep and grabbing expos. it is very powerful and hard to stop as terran.
and while they are gas heavy, the ground army is mostly lings which we all know require no gas, and by then they have 4-5 bases with a lot of larvae so they can easy amass to 200 supply while terran is still mid 100's.