** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[xCxStylex]

Are you fucking serious??? This should probably be changed for the people that are in bronze/whatever lower leagues where this shit occurs.

I've had this happen in a few games while I was still in placement and was wondering what the fuck was with that. It's actually really easy to win if you're in shared bases, since the $$ is split between the remaining players and all you need to do is mine with them.

For the people that are playing for achievements leaving the game immediately in a 4v4 is the fastest way to Team Zen Master.

The first person to get the achievement did this almost exclusively and still ended up with about a 40% win rate.

 

[xCxStylex]

Here's my idea on dealing the idea of scrubs who try to achievement whore these wins.


I propose that if a player disconnects, then they can still be given credit for a potential win.

If a player leaves, then they should be given no win at at all.

However, if a player disconnects two games in a row (or perhaps some other threshold/trigger level, such as one out of every 3 games), then their further disconnects will not grant wins until a certain number of complete games have been played.

No that could lead to griefing if people never leave the old game. Just give the person a loss. You drop, you lose. Lots of RTS's used to work this way.

Edit - In a 3v3 or 4v4 I'd almost prefer that someone drop, more resources for me. There's just too many damn gimps.

 

[eLiu]

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/882511

Whoa some of these seem like kind of a big deal? Wow early reapers are getting a complete nerf, my god. Barracks requires depot AND speed requires factory? I don't use reapers early, so in theory I feel happy about people not being able to like, 6rax->reaper fagging, but still. Seems like a major change.

I'm not really sure that it's warranted either. I mean, with proper scouting, every race can counter early reapers. Speedlings or roaches; stalkers; marauders or bunker'd marines. Yeah reapers suck balls if they show up and you have nothing to defend with... but... .... .... dunno.

Now, if you go for early reapers, your opponent is even more likely to have a defense out. And without the speed, the early reapers will die to almost any defense... but especially speedlings. Or maybe zerg won't even need to 13gas,14pool anymore. (Kinda like how it's pretty safe to forgo the first zealot in PvT now.)

Why do they want to make terran the only race who cannot produce military units without supply? Pool/Gate don't need overlord/pylon. Not that I think getting an early rax is a good idea, but why try to close that off?

Extra roach range seems interesting. Though roach v marauder is sounding a little more scary now.

Also, 6/8poolers are just as annoying as people with cheese-early (6rax anyone?) reapers. Why so much hate on reapers? Again, I don't use reapers for early pressure, but I'm surprised to see them get nerfed so hard.


AND the really weird thing is that the diamond/plat data quoted there seems to indicate that win/loss percentages are pretty even. TvZ only favors T in silver. If anything Protoss are more heavily favored... but not by much? And while Blizzard may not want to tend strictly to pros, diamond/plat level seems like a good measure. I don't really care what's going on in Silver/Bronze. In any game there will be strategies that noobs lose to until they learn how to fight back. That doesn't make the strategy OP. I bet most chess players have lost to something along the vein of 'scholar's mate' some number of times, but we don't see people demanding a bishop nerf!

edit: basically I'm personally happy to see a reaper nerf b/c I hate those fuckers, but I'm not sure this change is good for the game on a whole.

 

[nsafreak]

I had some PC problems when my copy of SC2 Collector's Edition arrived but now I'm playing on a semi-regular basis. Feel free to add me to your friends list I go by SgtCrispy. Would like to play again with some of the folks I played with during the beta.

 

[ayabe]

I can't really bring myself to read the forums over there, too much bitching and crying mixed with paragraph long rants about how BW was so much better.

Reapers are for gimps in anyhow, this just frees people up to experiment more with their BO's since they don't have to worry about being cheesed right from the get-go.

The supply before Barracks doesn't seem like a big deal either, who does that anyway? What's the point? I'd rather not fall way behind on my economy than rush out one marine. These are the people who go for some ill-conceived and executed rush and when it fails their economy is non-existent and they drop.

Edit - Just like there are hordes of Protoss players who can only cannon rush.

 

[xCxStylex]

Wow. I find the reaper nerfs stupid, but that's because they don't effect high level play, but I suppose it will help reduce noobs whining about reapers and also 6 rax reaper cheese in team games.

One thing I don't understand is why Protoss vs Terran is considered to be imbalanced in protoss favor.

 

[eLiu]

I can't really bring myself to read the forums over there, too much bitching and crying mixed with paragraph long rants about how BW was so much better.

Reapers are for gimps in anyhow, this just frees people up to experiment more with their BO's since they don't have to worry about being cheesed right from the get-go.

The supply before Barracks doesn't seem like a big deal either, who does that anyway? What's the point? I'd rather not fall way behind on my economy than rush out one marine. These are the people who go for some ill-conceived and executed rush and when it fails their economy is non-existent and they drop.

Edit - Just like there are hordes of Protoss players who can only cannon rush.

The structure of a good BO should be able to deal with cheese. By 'structure' i mean that obviously you cannot say things like "24 rax" "25 fact" or whatever b/c if a rush does come, you have to adjust. But you can always say things like "3rd base when I'm getting medivacs" or whatnot. This isn't SimCity. The game is less interesting if everyone can sit unbothered for 5 minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes & build up. (Btw, where do you draw the line? How early is too early? So like a 3:30 reaper is too fast but a 2marine+1marauder push is not? Why?)

My real objection to the reaper change is that while it does make early reaper cheese less viable/impossible, it also hurts real reaper based strategies. They are a great early harassment unit. The 5rax reaper push popular at one of the IEM tourneys is (was) a perfectly reasonable build.

So if supply before rax is a terrible idea, why remove it? If someone executes this terrible plan, then they lose & who cares. It isn't Blizzard's job to tell us what is/isn't a good strategy. If early rax were unbalanced b/c everyone did it & always won, that's another story. But I see no reason to add restrictions to play styles when they aren't harming the game. Again, I totally do not care about noobs who think that they can crush the opponent with 1 or 2 early marines/do other silly shit to try and end games by 5min or something.

 

[Dumac]

Why do they want to make terran the only race who cannot produce military units without supply? Pool/Gate don't need overlord/pylon.

Gate needs a pylon.

Extra roach range seems interesting. Though roach v marauder is sounding a little more scary now.

A little, but not much. Even with +1 range, marauders would still own roaches.

Also, 6/8poolers are just as annoying as people with cheese-early (6rax anyone?) reapers. Why so much hate on reapers? Again, I don't use reapers for early pressure, but I'm surprised to see them get nerfed so hard.

Because reaper cheese is a lot more difficult to stop than 6/8pool.

That said, I agree. I don't know if more reaper nerfs are necessary after the 5sec reaper/bunker delay from last patch

 

[eLiu]

Gate needs a pylon.

A little, but not much. Even with +1 range, marauders would still own roaches.

Because reaper cheese is a lot more difficult to stop than 6/8pool.

That said, I agree. I don't know if more reaper nerfs are necessary after the 5sec reaper/bunker delay from last patch

LOL you're right, gate does need a pylon. Wow, I'm stupid :/

Well they haven't specified how much of a range increase is coming. +1 isn't so bad, but +2 is pretty scary I think... so I averaged that into "a little more", lol. At +2, base roaches are cheaper & tougher, only slightly shorter range & less DPS. I mean overall I think the roach upgrade is a good idea.

It's true, reaper cheese to 6/8pool isn't a fair comparison in terms of difficult to counter. But that's mainly b/c toss & terran can wall against it. If you don't wall as either race, it's still damn annoying b/c you have to pull most of your worker line & run in circles until your first units are done. So in that sense, if you fear early lings, you build order needs to be altered (just like a zerg fearing reapers should get speedlings early) to compensate.

 

[Udgnim]

One thing I don't understand is why Protoss vs Terran is considered to be imbalanced in protoss favor.

PvT at a high level of play isn't imbalanced because they know how to play

PvT at a low level of play is imbalanced because players don't have the know how or ability / smarts to scout

it's more or less a player skill issue, but we'll see how Blizzard treats it

 

[ayabe]

The structure of a good BO should be able to deal with cheese. By 'structure' i mean that obviously you cannot say things like "24 rax" "25 fact" or whatever b/c if a rush does come, you have to adjust. But you can always say things like "3rd base when I'm getting medivacs" or whatnot. This isn't SimCity. The game is less interesting if everyone can sit unbothered for 5 minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes & build up. (Btw, where do you draw the line? How early is too early? So like a 3:30 reaper is too fast but a 2marine+1marauder push is not? Why?)

My real objection to the reaper change is that while it does make early reaper cheese less viable/impossible, it also hurts real reaper based strategies. They are a great early harassment unit. The 5rax reaper push popular at one of the IEM tourneys is (was) a perfectly reasonable build.

So if supply before rax is a terrible idea, why remove it? If someone executes this terrible plan, then they lose & who cares. It isn't Blizzard's job to tell us what is/isn't a good strategy. If early rax were unbalanced b/c everyone did it & always won, that's another story. But I see no reason to add restrictions to play styles when they aren't harming the game. Again, I totally do not care about noobs who think that they can crush the opponent with 1 or 2 early marines/do other silly shit to try and end games by 5min or something.

As you note later, going speedlings is an option for a zerg. But that means you have to go that way every time or else if the cheese is coming you are screwed. Other counter is spine crawlers right after pool in your min field, even then you need 2 or more. Any deviation from this and reapers will own you *if they're coming.

That's what makes it constraining and ultimately a little boring. That 100 gas for speedlings also gimps your early roaches for walling

 

[timosyy]

Note: Zerg start with an overlord, and Gateway does require pylon.

Anyway, never really had a problem with reapers, but that's because I almost always open 14gas/14pool specifically to counter reaper rushes. This frees me up to be a little more economically aggressive, I suppose.

Roach range is pretty big for me ... not because of bioball (Marauders will still rape roaches), but because I use roaches vs. terran mech, and any buff is a good buff there. Really wish they would just buff hydras into a useable unit though. I'm not sure there's ever any reason to use them against Terran.

I think Blizz is blowing reapers a little out of proportion, I never really perceived them as why Terran is so good.

 

[Dumac]

Note: Zerg start with an overlord, and Gateway does require pylon.

Anyway, never really had a problem with reapers, but that's because I almost always open 14gas/14pool specifically to counter reaper rushes. This frees me up to be a little more economically aggressive, I suppose.

Roach range is pretty big for me ... not because of bioball (Marauders will still rape roaches), but because I use roaches vs. terran mech, and any buff is a good buff there. Really wish they would just buff hydras into a useable unit though. I'm not sure there's ever any reason to use them against Terran.

I think Blizz is blowing reapers a little out of proportion, I never really perceived them as why Terran is so good.

I use Hydras against Protoss. They are super effective. You just have to be careful when the colossi come out...

For terran, I usually go speedling/bling/muta/infestor/ultra

And yes, reaper aren't really that big of an issue, especially after the 5sec nerf. Back before then, reaper rushes were hard to stop, but I think it is a lot less effective now.

 

[eLiu]

when are ATers usually on bnet? I've got some of you added but I never see anyone online, lol.

 

[Jessestephens]

Since the last patch Reapers are nearly useless for rushing in diamond. The suggested changes will make it so no one ever builds them. I haven't died to reaper early rushes since the patch. I think they are fine as it is.

I think the zlot nerf in the last patch was overkill. Any of the cheese strats are easily stopped if you bother to scout at all.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

Niceee I play zerg =)

 

[HomerX]

increased roach range is big when it comes to breaking down a wall... the defending units may not be able to shoot at the roaches behind the buildings.
so if a terran goes for an early tech (banshee, thorship etc) he will be more vulnerable to early roach aggression because he cant defend with only a handfull of marines/marauders...

 

[JTsyo]

I liked putting my barracks down first against zerg so I was more likely to get my first marine out while the lings were chewing on the depot wall. Depot before barracks seems to work better overall unless you are being rushed.

 

[xCxStylex]

Isn't that what banelings are for?

increased roach range is big when it comes to breaking down a wall... the defending units may not be able to shoot at the roaches behind the buildings.
so if a terran goes for an early tech (banshee, thorship etc) he will be more vulnerable to early roach aggression because he cant defend with only a handfull of marines/marauders...

 

[ImpulsE69]

I personally think they shouldn't have tweaked anything in the game after it was released gameplay wise for multiplayer. It was tested and took years to come out, and essentially the same game as SC1 only sped up more.

People are going to abuse ANY strategy that gives them an edge, so no amount of fixing will cure this unless they just make every race unit a 1 to 1 match. This would make the game boring, thus, where it's headed, because all the whiners would rather have a nerf than adapt. (I played EVE for 4+ years, the same thing happened there, due to all the whining about race imbalances, most future updates contained basically the exact thing for all races).

I don't like certain strategies, but if I lose to them, I don't whine, I try to figure out how to plan for it and beat it the next time I come across it. My biggest complaint of this game is simply the OTHER players.

ie: joining a game and immediately dropping (the win/lose thing)
ie: talking more smack than actually playing (has no units then blames the teammates when he dies first)
ie: people who quit at the first sign of an oncoming army..including those who immediately quit even though they have an expansion somewhere and their teammates are still perfectly capable of turning the game around.
ie: people who say absolutely nothing the whole game. If I say "hello" and no one on the team responds at all, I know the game isn't going to go well, because there wont' be any teamwork.

ie: One time in a 4v4, we won, but one guy had a beef with me for some reason although I'd not said a word during the game. He practically blizzardnet stalked me calling me every name in the book, until I blocked him, the guy needed a beating in person if you ask me.

These are the things that make the game suck more than it should, not the imbalances.

 

[sactoking]

I finally completed my 5 placement matches. Played Terran for all 5. Lost the first 2 against Void Ray rush. Won #3 against another Terran. Won #4 against Zerg. Lost #5 to cannon rush cheese. Placed in Bronze. 2-1 in Bronze so far.

My macro sucks. I consistently find myself with 1000+ minerals. Even with 4 barracks and 3 starports working full bore I can't spend minerals fast enough unless I use the queue. I also can't manage a battle and macro simultaneously so I either micro and get huge amounts of resource backlog or I macro and die to auto target.

 

[JTsyo]

I finally completed my 5 placement matches. Played Terran for all 5. Lost the first 2 against Void Ray rush. Won #3 against another Terran. Won #4 against Zerg. Lost #5 to cannon rush cheese. Placed in Bronze. 2-1 in Bronze so far.

My macro sucks. I consistently find myself with 1000+ minerals. Even with 4 barracks and 3 starports working full bore I can't spend minerals fast enough unless I use the queue. I also can't manage a battle and macro simultaneously so I either micro and get huge amounts of resource backlog or I macro and die to auto target.

In SC1 there was an option to play 2 people to a base, that was great for me. When playing you just have to keep remembering to do stuff. Now I'm ok at building troops but usually fall behind on SCVs.

 

[eLiu]

In SC1 there was an option to play 2 people to a base, that was great for me. When playing you just have to keep remembering to do stuff. Now I'm ok at building troops but usually fall behind on SCVs.

You can kinda do that in SC2 in 2v2 mode with the shared control thing. Only kinda b/c the non-owner can't spend money. But my friend and I default to this mode whenever one of us gets wiped out by early bullshit in team games. It makes a WORLD of difference when one person can concentrate only on macro, and the other person manages harass/attacks. The replay looks damn good, b/c we're in 2 places at once

JTsyo, how many bases/workers do you have for 4rax & 3port? What's the distribution of base structures, tech labs, and reactors? (At 2 bases or fewer, I don't believe that you're constantly producing units.) Also what units are you trying to make? It sounds like you're over-comitting on gas & have a shitload of minerals left. You need to rethink your army composition to compensate. Terran of all races has many *good* units that are very cheap on gas. Consider that when you're "saturated", the mineral:gas gather rate is something like 3:1. So your spending should also reflect this income rate.

If you really want that gas heavy army, you need to expand more. Take 3 or 4 bases (for the gas income), defend with a mobile marine/marauder force & commit your gas to whatever expensive tech you want.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

is there a BGH or equivalent yet?

 

[JTsyo]

You can kinda do that in SC2 in 2v2 mode with the shared control thing. Only kinda b/c the non-owner can't spend money. But my friend and I default to this mode whenever one of us gets wiped out by early bullshit in team games. It makes a WORLD of difference when one person can concentrate only on macro, and the other person manages harass/attacks. The replay looks damn good, b/c we're in 2 places at once

JTsyo, how many bases/workers do you have for 4rax & 3port? What's the distribution of base structures, tech labs, and reactors? (At 2 bases or fewer, I don't believe that you're constantly producing units.) Also what units are you trying to make? It sounds like you're over-comitting on gas & have a shitload of minerals left. You need to rethink your army composition to compensate. Terran of all races has many *good* units that are very cheap on gas. Consider that when you're "saturated", the mineral:gas gather rate is something like 3:1. So your spending should also reflect this income rate.

If you really want that gas heavy army, you need to expand more. Take 3 or 4 bases (for the gas income), defend with a mobile marine/marauder force & commit your gas to whatever expensive tech you want.

I usually on go with 3rax and then see what else to build depending on what they're doing. One factory and one starport are a given but the rest are in the air. There are games where I had 2 bases but around 30 SCVs, usually this mean we won the game since I was mircoing around their base. But just remembering to build a few SCVs while out in the field would give me more cash to rebuild or reinforce but it seems to just skip my mind.