***OFFICIAL SUPERBOWL XLVIII Thread***

[IndyColtsFan]

Here's the thing about the Montana argument (and I agree-I think he is certainly the best ever)--there is no metric and no stat that rate's Montana's abilities without the involvement of Jerry Rice.

Uh, Montana won 2 Super Bowls without Rice. You do know that, right?

 

[rudeguy]

Uh, Montana won 2 Super Bowls without Rice. You do know that, right?

Those ones don't count.

 

[smackababy]

Here's the thing about the Montana argument (and I agree-I think he is certainly the best ever)--there is no metric and no stat that rate's Montana's abilities without the involvement of Jerry Rice.

So...you've got what many consider the best QB ever, an argument for the best player, working with the player that many more consider to be the best football player ever. ....Wonder what a Montana career would have looked like with, say, someone like Chad Johnson (all the skills, but fizzles out quickly) or even the scrubs that Wilson threw to all year?

That goes both ways, of course: What is Jerry Rice's career like without the greatest QB of all time throwing to him?

Montana did well in KC (going to the AFC championship, losing to the Bills and then losing first round next year to the Dolphins).

I do agree Jerry Rice helped every SF QB during his era though. Michael Jordan is the Jerry Rice of basketball.

 

[Childs]

Here's the thing about the Montana argument (and I agree-I think he is certainly the best ever)--there is no metric and no stat that rate's Montana's abilities without the involvement of Jerry Rice.

So...you've got what many consider the best QB ever, an argument for the best player, working with the player that many more consider to be the best football player ever. ....Wonder what a Montana career would have looked like with, say, someone like Chad Johnson (all the skills, but fizzles out quickly) or even the scrubs that Wilson threw to all year?

That goes both ways, of course: What is Jerry Rice's career like without the greatest QB of all time throwing to him?

Montana won two Super Bowls without Jerry Rice, and I dont think Rice's career would have been what it was without John Taylor on the other side.

 

[zinfamous]

2 superbowls with Rice, 3 without. what's the difference at that point? These were 2 legendary HoF players, the very best at each position, that played the majority of their careers together.

It sounds like, then, an argument that Jerry Rice's success was more dependent on Montana that the other way--if he was already winning.

I'm not trying to take away any of that from either of them--but it's worth noting that behind every HoF player there are a lot of other teammates that got them there. There's certainly something to be said that the (perhaps) 2 greatest players in history were that great only because they fed off of each other.

 

[dainthomas]

While that's not a very accurate metric for comparing QB's, it's still a fun one...a second year rookie with as many Super Bowl wins as a 15 year elite veteran QB...

If he continues to play like he has the past two years, Wilson is gonna be expensive to keep when his rookie contract expires.

He's currently the lowest-paid player on the Seahawks roster...

Paul Allen should get him one of those Maseratis for an early Christmas present.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

2 superbowls with Rice, 3 without. what's the difference at that point?

Bzzzzt, wrong answer. Montana played in 4 Super Bowls -- 2 with Rice, 2 without. Rice's third Super Bowl was with Steve Young against the Chargers. From 91 onwards (IIRC), Rice played with Young as the QB.

 

[Nintendesert]

While that's not a very accurate metric for comparing QB's, it's still a fun one...a second year rookie with as many Super Bowl wins as a 15 year elite veteran QB...

If he continues to play like he has the past two years, Wilson is gonna be expensive to keep when his rookie contract expires.

He's currently the lowest-paid player on the Seahawks roster...

I didn't know "rookie" continued into the second year.

 

[silverpig]

Funny thing is, except for some very fortuitous 3rd down conversions and harvin trick plays, the seattle offense for the most part was negligible.

Except for all those points they scored, it was a tie game!

 

[Childs]

2 superbowls with Rice, 3 without. what's the difference at that point? These were 2 legendary HoF players, the very best at each position, that played the majority of their careers together.

It sounds like, then, an argument that Jerry Rice's success was more dependent on Montana that the other way--if he was already winning.

I'm not trying to take away any of that from either of them--but it's worth noting that behind every HoF player there are a lot of other teammates that got them there. There's certainly something to be said that the (perhaps) 2 greatest players in history were that great only because they fed off of each other.

Montana had two without Rice. He only had 4 Super Bowls total.

I think its more that the 49ers were just stacked. They won a SB without Montana and 2 without Walsh. If you take any of those guys out of that Walsh system, I doubt their careers would have been greater, or even the same. Its not really worth debating, because its hard to know, other than a broken Montana went to the AFC Championship game with the Chiefs and might have won had he not gotten injured. Rice did OK with the Raiders, but he had a HoF receiver on the other side in Tim Brown. The one thing I dont think is debatable is that they were at their best when all those 49ers played together.

 

[SP33Demon]

Seahawks defensive tackle Tony McDaniel said he thought the Broncos gave up after Percy Harvin's kickoff return for a touchdown gave Seattle a 29-0 lead to open the second half.

"When we was up about 29 points, just [Manning's] whole emotion was kind of like he was dry," McDaniel said, according to NFL.com. "Just the whole team looked like they was giving up, and once we scored again, I knew it was over."

Hot dam, who would have thought the greatest offense of all time would simply give up?

 

[Ban Bot]

So on Friday (1/31/2014) I posted this about how Seattle could stop Denver's offense. (see below quoted). I am not one to bet but I did post a couple times I thought Seattle could win big. Much respect to the Broncos though, it was a bad match up. And I don't get all the Manning hate. He played great in 2 playoff games. In this game the pocket constantly collapsed on him and his receivers were either not open or not getting YAC. As the pass game was dead their run game had no teeth. Where I fault Manning is he should have taken more sacks. Sometimes the best pass is the one not thrown. His line is at fault for not letting him get the ball off clean--and it wasn't like Manning was back there holding onto the ball for 5 second ala Big Ben. This was a total team effort on both sides.

RE: Manning's legacy. Football is a team sport. Manning's biggest mistakes were a) not getting drafted by a defense heavy run oriented team (ala Brady) or b) move on from Indy to a team that runs the ball with a good defense (like the teams Elway was on later in his career although their 49er loss was when he had a good D). Personally I think great QBs are best when they have great supporting casts on Defense and the run game and make the most of a marginal passing attack. Manning could make above average receivers (like Seattle's) very good. What he has always needed, and rarely received, is a TEAM that could weather a matchup that can shut down Manning's pass. I don't believe Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Farve, Marino, or name your favorite QB would have done any better in Super Bowl 48. Maybe I am getting old but I have seen a lot of great offensive teams lose badly, long before the Super Bowl.

What we saw yesterday was the statistically best offense ever, that played two good play off games, get destroyed. This has less to do with Manning but with how great Seattle has been.

I think things could go sideways for Denver’s offense. I think we have as much chance as seeing the Manning face on the sidelines as we do the Star Wars offense. Here is how I could potentially see how the wheels on the bus fall off. The TLDR Cliff Notes: Seattle will mug Denver’s receivers (see: Patriots vs. Rams 2002) and pressure Manning (see: Giants vs. Patroits 2007). All-Everything offenses have been halted before, and Seattle is every bit as good as those Patriot (2002) and Giant defenses (2007).

#1 Weather. The cold will slow Manning some. The wind will make the ducks a little less accurate.

#2 Deep Balls. The weather, in conjunction with Manning’s arm, would result in floaters off target. You don’t throw those with Earl Thomas back there.

#3 Rhythm. Seattle corners are going to press, jam, and ::cough::hold::hold:: at the line and disrupt Denver timing routes.

#4 Time. Manning usually has a lot of time to throw. Seattle has a very good 4 man pass rush. Typically Manning can defuse this with his quick passes and hot reads. The quick passes are going to be gummed up by press coverage. The hot reads will be less enticing as Seattle doesn’t have mismatches and doesn’t need to blitz to get to Manning. Him throwing 0.5 seconds slow could result in more pressure and mistakes.

#5. Matchups. Unlike most opponents where Denver has a massive edge in offensive personnel Seattle throws out 3 All-Pro defensive backs in Thomas, Sherman, and Chancelor. Maxwell, Thurmond, and Lane are all excellent corners who would be one of the two starting corners on ANY other NFL squad. And their linebackers—Wright, Wagner, Irvin, and backup Malcum Smith (who had a INT returned for a TD and was the dude who picked Kaepernick on the Sherman deflection)—are the best pass covering linebackers unit in the league. Denver doesn’t have a matchup advantage against this pass defense. And some of the cute stuff, like rubs/picks, won’t work well against Seattle’s big defenders.

#6 Mind games. Manning is a nice guy, great story, but above all else is a Jedi Master of picking apart teams with his mind. But Seattle is going to neutralize this by turning the table. Seattle won’t even try to out-scheme Manning at the line by being cute. They are going to line up and dictate to Denver: We are playing 3 Deep. We are playing Cover 1 Press. Bring it on! Manning is going to line up prepared to holler OMAHA! fifty times every play only to be frustrated by Seattle’s vanilla defense daring him to beat them straight up. This is a classic example of a finesse, cerebral offense used to making defenses into proverbial pretzels matching up against a young, athletic, fast, and big defenders with swagger & smarts (see: Patriots vs. the Greatest Show on Turf—harken back to the crying about how the Patriots were too physical). They are going to disrupt the finesse game and they are neutralizing Manning’s genius by playing straight up ball, forcing Denver to beat them with execution at each level and at every matchup, not trickery and adjustments at the line.

#7 Safety valves. Manning won’t have Julius Thomas as a standout miss match. Chancelor and KJ Wright can out Thomas just like they did to Vernon twice, Jimmy twice, and even the respectable Gonzo. Try to be tricky with a mismatch pairing Thomas against a corner by using formations with him as the widest player to a side?—that doesn’t work so well when you have a fast 6’3” Sherman more than happy to take on the mismatch. So will Denver try screens? New Orleans is a good screen team and Seattle backers ate these plays alive, young and all.

#8 Run against Nickel. Denver is used to abusing teams with 6 in the box or 7 (the last being a small slot DB type). This won’t be so simple against Seattle. When Seattle goes to Nickel personnel Manning will call a run; unfortunately Seattle’s Nickel players are great against the rush. The backs that gave Seattle problems where gashing, explosive small backs, and that was when Wagner was out/hurt. Seattle has large DBs (Chancelor, Sherman, Maxwell) who can tackle, smallish safety Thomas is a tackling machine, and Middle Linebacker Bobby Wagner is fast, athletic, and was a big part why Seattle stuffed San Francisco rushing attack.

#9 Dink-and-Dunk. Manning will resort to dink-and-dunk but Seattle is the best and preventing YAC which will prevent Denver from those long 12 play drives.

#10 Manning face. Manning has a long history of pressing in big games. He continues to evolve and mature but Seattle has all the tools to frustrate him. If Seattle can get a lead on Denver and hits Manning early and often and can do some of the above things Manning will feel pressured. If he feels pressured he will make mistakes. If Seattle can get that Manning to appear the wheels on the Star Wars offense will fall off and Seattle will have their first Lombardi.

And this one from 10 days before that:

So, what unit is going to win? Denver’s league best pass offense or Seattle’s league best pass defense?

While Denver is quite capable of blowing Seattle out I think Seattle can win, could even win big. Being a homer I will pick Seattle (just know my pick means nothing and I don’t guarantee it). I think Seattle will win because I think Seattle wins 3 of the 4 major match ups and the 4th, pass defense versus Denver’s passing offense, is almost a wash.

SEA Rush vs. DEN Rush Defense. This is a bad match up for Denver as Seattle has a top tier running attack and Denver’s run defense is pedestrian at best (see: big leads padding defensive rush stats). Seattle clearly was saving the Beast the last 5 or 6 games of the season. Back-to-back 100+ games in the playoffs is impressive. Someone was pointing out how DEN shut down New England’s rush attack. The check-and-mate for that argument is 100+ against the much, much better 49er run defense. And I bet we see something we have not seen half the season: Wilson on the run. Last game of the season so you let it all go. And the final wrinkle: Harvin. He is dangerous on the fly sweep and as a legit pass threat it draws defenders out of the box and forces the safeties deep. Seattle has the horses to run all over Denver.

SEA Pass vs. DEN Pass Defense. I am conflicted on Wilson’s recent games. He has clearly struggled (hand offs to the wrong side multiple times, fumbled snap, bad hand offs, running backwards, missing wide open receivers, not pulling the trigger on very wide open receivers like the Harvin screen). But on the other hand Seattle continues to win and Wilson continues to make the right adjustment, right reads, makes the big plays and doesn’t turn the ball over much. He is more than a game manager but he is not carrying the team or playing at the level he was early on. Part of that is the bad line, part of that is losing Rice and not having Harvin, and part of that is the fact Seattle has been playing great defenses and Carroll’s approach is the Seattle defense can win the game so Wilson needs to protect the ball. But there is no getting around teams are covering the flats and using more zone to prevent scrambles and FORCE him to make reads. That he is struggling can be seen in the issues with fundamentals like snaps and handoffs. That said Wilson is very good. If Seattle can run, and I think they can, then Seattle will be able to run play action, both in the pocket and on rollouts. Having Harvin on the field also makes everyone else better. Denver’s pass defense doesn’t scare anyone and the less of a starting CB two weeks ago doesn’t help. Denver could really use a player like Von Miller to pressure Wilson regularly.

DEN Rush vs. SEA Rush Defense. Denver can clearly run the ball. But I think it is largely predicated on teams having to defend the pass. The backs Seattle has struggled with are smaller athletic backs with slashing, gashing styles. Aside from a couple 200+ games, a time when Wagner was playing hurt and the defense was playing undisciplined gap control, Seattle’s run defense has been nasty against backs. Seeing as Manning is not Kap I don’t think a running QB is the issue. Where Denver could do some damage is by making Kam Chancelor play back to respect the pass and catch Seattle looking for pass with smaller D lineman on the field.

DEN Pass vs. SEA Pass Defense. Denver set a bazillion passing records. 55 touch downs and over 5,000 yards. Wow! They have 4 legit pass receivers not including backs out of the backfield. They have the smartest QB in the game, maybe ever. Denver wants redemption for last year and Manning wants to anchor his legacy. And the pass game is here to make it happen. You could heap superlatives on the pass game all day, especially how fantastic the line has been, but everyone has talked about it all season. Best offensive team in history.

Unfortunately for Denver this plays into Seattle’s strength as they have 3 all-pro pass defenders and a deep pass rush. Seattle has four good corners in Sherman, Maxwell, Thurmond, and Lane in addition to Kam in Earl in the back. Seattle’s corners press hard disrupting quick timing routes which gives their pass rush some time to get to the QB. And that is the key. If Seattle takes away the short routes and Seattle gets a real pass rush Denver is in deep trouble.

RE: Denver's defense. Seattle's first two drives ended in Field Goals but Seattle was moving well. Denver had to make a choice: stop the run or stop the pass. They chose the run and Seattle made them pay for it. Denver's defense is getting too much credit / not enough blame IMO. They were so focused on Lynch they allowed Harvin to get 30 and 15 yard rushes on the same play. Their contain was horrible. They also failed to contain Wilson (who had a long run called back) and as Wilson ran early a couple times you could see it screwed up their defense and opened things up. Baldwin badly beat Champ on the long pass and the tackling on Baldwin and Kearse touchdowns was horrible. Denver's D bent but did not break the first two drives and sold out to stop Lynch leaving them open to the Harvin sweeps and Wilson picking them apart (18/25, 2 TDs, no INTs or Fumbles). Denver's special teams were horrible too. Seattle has had awesome kick coverage all year and it showed. Denver had one of the worst kick cover unit stats this year and Harvin showed how poor the unit was.

Overall I think people underestimated Seattle's defense in the match up (4 deep at Corner and great against YAC and good against the run in Nickel) and totally overlooked Seattle's offense which was #8 in scoring in the league and had a great special teams unit (Tate was #2 in punt return average; best Punt Cover unit ever; getting Harvin back at KO returns).

 

[smackababy]

I thought I'd throw my agreement in with rudeguy that Bruno Mars' performance was pretty good. I am not a fan, but he definitely is an entertaining. I was expecting something really bland (as the Super Bowl has been going very safe; thanks Justin!).

 

[Ban Bot]

Seriously...I hate that guy. Before this year I had no opinion, didn't really like him or not like him. But the tantrums he threw on the field and sideline fixed that.

To me, character means more than anything.

Props to Manning in this category: after the game he sought after Sherman and inquired about his injury, hoping it wasn't serious. How many players after a frustrating legacy denting loss seek out the opponent to ensure they are OK? I really like Manning, I just wish he had chosen a better team--but quite glad he didn't go to the 49ers! Else we would likely be sitting here talking about back-to-back 49er Super Bowls.

 

[rudeguy]

Props to Manning in this category: after the game he sought after Sherman and inquired about his injury, hoping it wasn't serious. How many players after a frustrating legacy denting loss seek out the opponent to ensure they are OK? I really like Manning, I just wish he had chosen a better team--but quite glad he didn't go to the 49ers! Else we would likely be sitting here talking about back-to-back 49er Super Bowls.

Manning has integrity. Have you seen how embarrassed he gets when the talking heads bring up his numbers in interviews? You can tell he honestly loves the game and the people who play it. He doesn't do it for glory or money. Well I'm sure the money helps, but for sure not the glory.

I really hope he stays in the league after he's done playing. Here is my bold prediction:

When Chuck leaves Indy, Peyton steps in as head coach.

 

[vi edit]

When Chuck leaves Indy, Peyton steps in as head coach

I don't think he wants a coaching gig. If anything he'll pickup a booth gig doing some commenting/announcing on Sunday and spend time with his family. If he does anything admin wise he'll go the Elway route and look into errr... Manning a front office. Peyton has a decent business mind.

 

[rudeguy]

I don't think he wants a coaching gig. If anything he'll pickup a booth gig doing some commenting/announcing on Sunday and spend time with his family. If he does anything admin wise he'll go the Elway route and look into errr... Manning a front office. Peyton has a decent business mind.

I would be completely ok with him going to the booth but I just feel like that would be a waste of his talent. I would much rather hear him than Joe Buck but I think it would be better for the NFL is he was a coach.

Plus...just think of how nuts Indy would be. Both the city and our buddy. It would be insane

 

[ezclick]

Sorry to be a pest Arkaign, but you provided some very useful help and I would like to ask some questions. I just signed up and cannot PM you until I post 25 times. If you see this today please add me or accept my request, thank you!

 

[Childs]

So on Friday (1/31/2014) I posted this about how Seattle could stop Denver's offense. (see below quoted). I am not one to bet but I did post a couple times I thought Seattle could win big.

I thought the game would look like the Saints game. Seattle sits on a 14-17 point lead for most of the game, then the Broncos score 7-10 points late when Seattle goes in prevent mode to make it interesting. Seattle definitely played all 60 minutes. After the game they were annoyed they allowed Denver to score the 8 points. Usually teams would have started celebrating at 29-0.

 

[bradley]

This Super Bowl rates as a) one of the worst with b) the most shocking outcome. I wish the initial turnover never happened, as it disappointingly set the game's entire tone.

I know Seattle's defense is awesome -- no way are they (or their offense) 43-8 good. Though I do give them credit for never allowing Denver to catch their breath.

Defensively Seattle opposed Manning's play calling PERFECTLY. They never once allowed him to become the puppet master, a insufferable mistake for most teams. Seattle rewrote the book against Manning for all teams to follow in the future.

The best part of the game was the half-time show. Surprisingly, I actually knew all of Bruno Mars' songs. The guy is fantastically talented; his songs just lack much structure and sound one-noted after a while.

 

[gorcorps]

Manning has integrity. Have you seen how embarrassed he gets when the talking heads bring up his numbers in interviews? You can tell he honestly loves the game and the people who play it. He doesn't do it for glory or money. Well I'm sure the money helps, but for sure not the glory.

I really hope he stays in the league after he's done playing. Here is my bold prediction:

When Chuck leaves Indy, Peyton steps in as head coach.

I don't really see it anymore. As much as Manning wants to downplay it, I think he and the owner have some bad blood now.

Plus I agree that he's not really that interested in coaching to begin with.

 

[smackababy]

This Super Bowl rates as a) one of the worst with b) the most shocking outcome. I wish the initial turnover never happened, as it disappointingly set the game's entire tone.

I know Seattle's defense is awesome -- no way are they (or their offense) 43-8 good. Though I do give them credit for never allowing Denver to catch their breath.

How can they not be that good, if that is what they did? I will say, they are, at the very least, 41-8 good, because that safety wasn't really on them.

Defensively Seattle opposed Manning's play calling PERFECTLY. They never once allowed him to become the puppet master, a insufferable mistake for most teams. Seattle rewrote the book against Manning for all teams to follow in the future.

What book? Pressure him with the front 4 and then cover the receivers well? Indy did this weeks ago...

And this is not the worst, not the most shocking. Buffalo Bills 4 times in a row? Cowboys crushing the Bills twice in a row during those losses? Denver's last time getting crushed by the NFC West in a SB?

 

[bradley]

Suddenly, everyone's in love with the college coach aka NFL head coach castoff, the young upstart QB and all those Vegas odds makers are stoopid. What a difference a year/day makes. Nah the outcome wasn't unexpected, I'm my own armchair quarterback in hindsight.

Anyway, I still believe without the botched opening snap the outcome is way closer. Denver's offense became atypically conservative after that safety, major disappointment not seeing the game's greatest air out the ball.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

He doesn't do it for glory or money.

No, he's got Papa John's and Buick and Mastercard and Gatorade and Sprint and DirecTV and Reebok and Nerf and Oreo and Wheaties and Sony for that.

 

[OutHouse]

Denver threw the game from the very first play.