***OFFICIAL SUPERBOWL XLVIII Thread***

[bignateyk]

I'm pretty sure just about any playoff caliber modern team would mop the floor with the best teams from the 70's/80's.

The athletes are bigger, stronger, and faster today.

Most of those guys probably wouldn't even make the cut on a modern team.

 

[Nintendesert]

And modern day players couldn't make it back then without all the pansy rules they hide behind now.

 

[bignateyk]

And modern day players couldn't make it back then without all the pansy rules they hide behind now.

Doubtful. Modern players are bigger and stronger. It would be an ass whooping if they played with old rules.

 

[Ban Bot]

Woah woah woah. Everyone knows old stuff is better than new stuff you crazy person.

I am crazy!

Not to beat a dead horse, but the numbers are very interesting. Obviously with proper training, diets, and coaching athletes from former generations would be just as good as today's. There are some oddities (e.g. today's 6'5" receivers who run 4.3-4.4 40s and those 6'7" 260lb tight ends are just freaks) but in general I think this is true.

Those factors missing teams 30 years ago are nowhere near as good as those today in a physical sport like football. The disparity is no bigger than at the O Line and D Line level where you have players who move like basketball players but are also bigger. The 2013 Seahawks vs. 1985 Bears, to continue the example, is huge--43lb difference on the O-Line, 30lb difference on the Tight Ends, and 13lb difference on the D-Line. The D-line is skewed for Seattle has they play a hybrid line where Clemons and Avril are essentially outside backers in a 3-4 but playing the Leo in Seattle's 4-3.

Seattle vs. Bears (Difference)
O-Line: 313lbs vs. 270lbs (43lb difference)
D-Line: 287lbs vs. 274lbs (13lb difference)
Tight Ends: 257lbs vs. 227lbs (30lb difference)

2013 Seahawks:

D-LINE  
Avril, Cliff DE 260
Bennett, Michael DE 274
Bryant, Red DE 323
Clemons, Chris DE 254
Mayowa, Benson DE 252
Hill, Jordan DT 303
McDaniel, Tony DT 305
McDonald, Clinton DT 297
Mebane, Brandon DT 311
 AVG. 286.5555556
  
O-LINE  
Carpenter, James G 321
Sweezy, J.R. G 298
Jeanpierre, Lemuel G/C 301
McQuistan, Paul G/T 315
Bowie, Michael OT 332
Hauptmann, Caylin OT 300
Bailey, Alvin T 320
Giacomini, Breno T 318
Okung, Russell T 310
 AVG. 312.7777778
  
TIGHT ENDS  
Davis, Kellen TE 265
Miller, Zach TE 255
Willson, Luke TE 251
 AVG. 257

1985 Bears:

D-LINE   
Richard Dent DE 77 265
Mike Hartenstine DE 75 251
Dan Hampton DE-DT 77 264
Henry Waechter DE-DT 77 270
Tyrone Keys DE-LB 79 272
William Perry DT-DE 74 325
Steve McMichael DT-NT 74 270
  AVG. 273.8571429
   
O-LINE   
Jay Hilgenberg C-G 75 259
Kurt Becker G 77 271
Mark Bortz G 78 282
Stefan Humphries G 75 265
Tom Thayer G-C 76 271
Jimbo Covert T 76 277
Andy Frederick T 78 257
Keith Van Horne T 78 281
Tom Andrews T-C 76 265
  AVG. 269.7777778
   
TIGHT ENDS   
Tim Wrightman TE 75 237
Emery Moorehead TE-WR 74 218
  AVG. 227.5

 

[Nintendesert]

Doubtful. Modern players are bigger and stronger. It would be an ass whooping if they played with old rules.

Yeah right, those girly wide receivers would quit after one game of getting manhandled by safeties and linebackers that were allowed to actually hit.

QBs? Forget about it.

 

[zinfamous]

The three best statistical offenses I can recall are the 1998 Vikings, 2007 Patriots, and 2013 Broncos. None won the Super Bowl, with the Vikings losing to the Falcons in the NFC Championship.

Denver lost to the Colts when the Colts were still playing well. The Colts curb stomped them pretty good in the first 3 quarters but Denver mounted a good rally and nearly won it.

Weren't the 99-2000 Rams better than those Vikings?

 

[zinfamous]

Seattle's problem is going to be contracts. Right now they are paying less for Wilson, Sherman, Thurmond, Tate, and Malcom Smith combined than what Minnesota payed Josh Freeman to play one game for them.

:awe:

 

[bignateyk]

Yeah right, those girly wide receivers would quit after one game of getting manhandled by safeties and linebackers that were allowed to actually hit.

QBs? Forget about it.

They can all take the hits just fine. They just know that if they whine and put on a good acting job they'll get a flag.

 

[Ban Bot]

Or you can talk about this Peyton Manning blowout in the same breath as his other epic playoff failures. Like the 41-0 obliteration by the Jets in 2002. The pick-six that iced the Super Bowl loss to the Saints. Or the 8 one-and-dones in his playoff career. Or the season the Colts won the Super Bowl on Manning's amazing 3 TD, 7 INT postseason performance.

Or you could watch the game and see it was a total team collapse.

Manning was constantly hit while throwing the ball leading to turnovers. The Smith and Chancellor INTs both came on Manning getting hit while throwing the ball, neither time was he holding the ball too long. Manning was hitting his receivers when they got open (he had like 280 yards on 30+ completions, and NFL record) but his receivers failed to get Yards After Catch. Receivers dropped the ball and had a major fumble. The run game disappeared from the first snap. Julius Thomas, the great X factor Tight End who should have shred Seattle down the seems, didn't contribute. The Bronco screen game, a bread and butter, was snuffed out by the Seattle line backers. Denver special teams were horrible (kick returns were bad, KO coverage was horrible). The only thing the Defense did well was stop Lynch. But they sold out to do this. They allowed 71 yards rushing on 5 carries from Wilson and Harvin. They allowed Wilson to pick them apart for 18-25 and 2 TDs and they failed to force a single turnover. The defense was spared as Seattle half way through the third throttled back because Seattle could have added in another score... or three.

The same defense (past playoff losses) applies to Rodgers, Brady, Kaepernick, Flacco, Brees, Roethlisberger, etc if recent years or all those years Montana, Aikman, Young, Elway, etc failed to make it to the Super Bowl. The fact is Manning had a great season, played well in the 2nd and 3rd rounds (400 yards--remember that a couple weeks back?) but ran into the leagues best defense. And true to form, where defense beats offense, defense won. The Broncos were 8-8 before Manning got there and he turned that offense into a record setting team. The Broncos are an average team with some good talent with a great QB. Their defense is pedestrian, their run game is totally dependent on the passing game, and their OL had serious injuries. And that all showed in the Super Bowl as all the pieces around Manning--run game, pass blocking, defense, special teams--all imploded.

Joe Montana wasn't going to win Sunday with that Bronco group. The receivers were not getting open and failed to run after the catch and Montana could not have made defense and special teams play better.

 

[Nintendesert]

They can all take the hits just fine. They just know that if they whine and put on a good acting job they'll get a flag.

I don't know, I'd love to see Butkis or Ronnie Lott hit a Wes Welker. :biggrin:

 

[manly]

Errrr no. Your long winded post is ignoring the fact that all local radio talk shows and ESPN talk about how his horrible performance will affect his legacy ad nauseum. They are actually trying to focus more on NHL, NBA, etc. because the performance was so abysmal and it's takin up so much airtime depressing listeners.

Basically: One of if not the best regular season QB's. Mediocre/bad post season. Legacy = affected. Are you even paying attention?

...

Seahawks owned this, but unfortunately made this the most boring Superbowl in years. Defensive games are boring, which is why the rules have been changed to improve offensive numbers..... but the Broncos still sucked... which is more of a credit to the STL defense.

What does the Rams defense have to do with anything?

Well you addressed one of my points. I don't listen to sports radio, but I'm glad there are still some critical, objective folks out there even if they're media blowhards. Look through this thread, there's all the finger-pointing at the defense, the O-line, the coaching, etc. But those PM defenders (and there are plenty of them) rarely concede Peyton had a bad game. Furthermore, leading into the game, there were plenty of articles saying how Peyton's legacy was all but set even if he lost.

Quite frankly, even Tom Brady's legacy isn't the same after losing their last 2 Super Bowls. It's just the way these things work.

And yes, I haven't been paying close attention since after the game.

 

[Phokus]

I don't know, I'd love to see Butkis or Ronnie Lott hit a Wes Welker. :biggrin:

Wes Welker is a bit of an outlier, the big name receivers are much bigger than they were before.

 

[bignateyk]

Wes Welker is a bit of an outlier, the big name receivers are much bigger than they were before.

Even small guys are tougher now. Hines Ward took some hits over his career that were worse than anything Butkis dished out and bounced right back up smiling afterward.

 

[SP33Demon]

I do believe crowd noise had a huge impact from the opening drive. Sadly it also made the most hyped and reported Super Bowl the most disappointing. Maybe next year crowd noise will be neutralized by in-ear phones miked to their respective QBs.

Good article on why Seattle isn't even close to being the all-time best Super Bowl defense, damn good, yes, youngest, yes. Let's not get carried away here.

Seattle Seahawks' defensive legacy depends on NFL-wide impact
http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story/...ks-defensive-legacy-depends-on-nflwide-impact

» Fewest Points Allowed per Game -- Since AFL-NFL Merger of 1970
1) 1977 Atlanta Falcons: 9.2
2) 1975 Los Angeles Rams: 9.6
3) 1976 Pittsburgh Steelers: 9.9
3) 1971 Minnesota Vikings: 9.9
5) 1971 Baltimore Colts: 10.0
6) 1970 Minnesota Vikings: 10.2
7) 2000 Baltimore Ravens: 10.3


» Fewest Points Allowed per Game -- Since 1978
1) 2000 Baltimore Ravens: 10.3
2) 1986 Chicago Bears: 11.7
3) 2000 Tennessee Titans: 11.9
4) 1978 Pittsburgh Steelers: 12.2
5) 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers: 12.3
6) 1985 Chicago Bears: 12.4
6) 1978 Denver Broncos: 12.4

» Fewest Points Allowed per Game -- Since 2004
1) 2005 Chicago Bears: 12.6
1) 2006 Baltimore Ravens: 12.6
3) 2008 Pittsburgh Steelers: 13.9
4) 2011 Pittsburgh Steelers: 14.2
5) 2011 San Francisco 49ers: 14.3
6) 2013 Seattle Seahawks: 14.4

I don't think in-ear phones for the OLine is legal, other than the QB.

 

[smackababy]

Wes Welker is a bit of an outlier, the big name receivers are much bigger than they were before.

Much bigger? Hardly. The prototypical big body receiver was Michael Irvin, and he was hardly smaller than someone like Calvin Johnson. 6'2 208 vs 6'5 230. And even then, most receivers aren't bigger than Megatron. The big body receivers might be what's popular these days, but they aren't much bigger. The bigger ones play basketball.

 

[zinfamous]

Much bigger? Hardly. The prototypical big body receiver was Michael Irvin, and he was hardly smaller than someone like Calvin Johnson. 6'2 208 vs 6'5 230. And even then, most receivers aren't bigger than Megatron. The big body receivers might be what's popular these days, but they aren't much bigger. The bigger ones play basketball.

I think with today, it's easy to look at "receivers" as anyone within the lineup that is typically going to be catching the ball. Tight Ends are so thoroughly used now on every squad--several of the big offensive teams of the last several years running two TE sets, with TE lining up on the outside in several cases, that you can easily see the perception of bigger bodies today because TE is now more or less equal to WO on the stat sheet, as well as the formation on the field.

And yes--those great TE's today were, indeed, basketball players.

 

[Childs]

Sure, but I don't get where people say it's the best in NFL history. I haven't done the footwork, but the previous "best" offense - during the regular season how tough was their lineup? Denver didn't really play teams that had great defenses. I would absolutely have loved to see the 49ers, Hawks or similar in the regular season vs the Broncos. Someone in the top 5 at least.

Its just based on stats. They didnt really play any good defensive teams. Houston (#7) was the best, and they gave up 27 points a game. Not to mention they are a 2-14 team.

The three best statistical offenses I can recall are the 1998 Vikings, 2007 Patriots, and 2013 Broncos. None won the Super Bowl, with the Vikings losing to the Falcons in the NFC Championship.

Denver lost to the Colts when the Colts were still playing well. The Colts curb stomped them pretty good in the first 3 quarters but Denver mounted a good rally and nearly won it.

I think whats most surprising is that Denver couldnt mount any sort of run, aside from their one touchdown. When Denver had their previous loses, they were still above 20 points and were competitive.

 

[zinfamous]

Its just based on stats. They didnt really play anyone good defensive teams. Houston was the best, and they gave up 26 points a game. Not to mention they are a 2-14 team.

KC wasn't the best defense they played in the regular season? Up until that first game against KC, wasn't KC officially the "best" defense in the league.


yes--you can make the same argument for KC that their defense opposed shit teams through most of the season, but, you know--it's just based on stats.

 

[smackababy]

I think with today, it's easy to look at "receivers" as anyone within the lineup that is typically going to be catching the ball. Tight Ends are so thoroughly used now on every squad--several of the big offensive teams of the last several years running two TE sets, with TE lining up on the outside in several cases, that you can easily see the perception of bigger bodies today because TE is now more or less equal to WO on the stat sheet, as well as the formation on the field.

And yes--those great TE's today were, indeed, basketball players.

That is true. Lebron James would have been a monster tight end. 6'8, 265 and the ability to out jump everyone on the field. He'd make Gronk look like child. =)

 

[zinfamous]

That is true. Lebron James would have been a monster tight end. 6'8, 265 and the ability to out jump everyone on the field. He'd make Gronk look like child. =)

Imagine if Peppers played TE instead of DE. I was so damn mean on the college BBall court.

 

[Childs]

KC wasn't the best defense they played in the regular season? Up until that first game against KC, wasn't KC officially the "best" defense in the league.


yes--you can make the same argument for KC that their defense opposed shit teams through most of the season, but, you know--it's just based on stats.

I think at the time all of KC's opponents had sub .500 records at the time, and only one team ended up with a winning record, and one was 8-8. There was a lot of doubt as to whether KC was real or not. And they didnt beat anyone with a winning record the rest of the season either. But I think they were allowing the lowest points per game at the time.

 

[Ban Bot]

Its just based on stats. They didnt really play any good defensive teams. Houston (#7) was the best, and they gave up 27 points a game. Not to mention they are a 2-14 team.

Denver played a number of top 12 defensive teams in scoring.

SCORING
Kansas City -- 19.1 (#6)
Indianapolis -- 21.0 (#9)
New England -- 21.1 (#10)
San Diego -- 21.8 (#11)
Baltimore -- 22.0 (#12)

As an aside, CBS had Seattle and San Fran #3 and #4, respectively, rated before the Super Bowl. Behind Denver AND New England. The East Coast bias is crazy.

 

[smackababy]

I think at the time all of KC's opponents had sub .500 records at the time, and only one team ended up with a winning record, and one was 8-8. There was a lot of doubt as to whether KC was real or not. And they didnt beat anyone with a winning record the rest of the season either. But I think they were allowing the lowest points per game at the time.

One of those teams put up 48 against Denver and only 16 against KC. We had this discussion quite a few times with AMDZen. Denver and KC had nearly identical schedules, except for the Colts before they met.

 

[JulesMaximus]

 

[zinfamous]

speaking of--has anyone checked on AMD? is he okay?