***OFFICIAL SUPERBOWL XLVIII Thread***

[BoomerD]

I just watched the SuperBowl again...Gawd-damn...that was an exciting game!

(youse naysayers STFU!)

 

[zinfamous]

Russell Wilson remembers people ripping Seahawks' 2012 draft class
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...bers-people-ripping-seahawks-2012-draft-class

my cup--
it runneth over with the
tears of the mentally
defeated

()

 

[Ban Bot]

Wilson was an efficient/serviceable QB (at times extremely good) on a really great defensive/offensive line.

... I also find Cam Newton far more exciting with a greater upside. Sorry again.

Do you mind explaining your position above in bold regarding Seattle's offensive line?

I don't know anyone who believe Seattle has a really great offensive line. In fact most believe Seattle's offensive line is one of the worst in the league this season. I don't believe you have been watching Seattle closely based on comments like that. Some objective rankings of Seattle's O Line:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Footballoutsiders.com has Seattle ranked 32-of-32 in pass protection with a score of 9.6. How bad is that score? The top 10 rank from New England at #1 (3.7) to Dallas at #10 (6.2).

They were also 32-of-32 in power running which is defined as, "Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/

Profootballfocus.com ranked Seattle 26-of-32, 25th in pass blocking and 30th in penalties. Their analysis for their two best blockers, LT Okung and C Unger, were not flattering as neither was up to form:

"Analysis: An interesting year. Losing Russell Okung hurt but when they did get him on the field his play was a level or three below it’s usual high standard. At center Max Unger had a down year as a variety of combinations on either side of him failed. Essentially, they did enough at times for Marshawn Lynch to make yardage, but this had the feel of an experimental group with the coaches trying to luck into the right combination."

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/43265/179/2013-offensive-line-rankings?pg=2

Rotoworld ranked Seattle at #20 before the season started, i.e. before injuries and their better players having down years.


Then there are the raw statistics: Wilson was sacked 44 times and by ESPN metrics was the most pressured QB in the league. At times he *certainly* held the ball too long (a combination of their #3-4-5 depth chart receivers playing #1-2-3 roles due to injuries to Rice and Harvin as well as Wilson simply holding into the ball to long) but this is also offset substantially by Seattle's ability to do play action, move Wilson out of the pocket on rolls and boot legs, and his general ability to get out of pressure situations. A drop back passer like Manning or Brady would have been destroyed behind this line.

Beyond the skill issues Seattle had major injuries this year with LT Okung and RT Giacomini out about 8 weeks each. Unger was in our out with an arm injury and concussion. Mind you Okung (former Pro Bowler) and Unger (former All Pro) are by far their best lineman. Swiezy (RG) is a 2nd year player converted from Defensive Line (!) and had major problems this year. And LG was so bad they had a rotation of 3 players (Carpenter, Bowie, and McQuistin) rotating because they all struggles so bad. Things were so bad this year they kept their $7M/year tight end, Miller, in to block regularly which dented his production and took away one of Wilson's best targets. The line's issues forced Seattle to only dress running backs who could pass block (Christine Michael is a better runner than Turbin but is too raw in blocking) and even resulted in them moving their rookie T/G Baily to Tight End (!) in the playoffs.

Undoubtedly, match ups play a role and that was part of Seattle's issues as they played San Francisco 2x, Arizona 2x, and the Rams 2x -- all teams in their division with great Front 7s. Likewise Carolina is no joke. Many of their other opponents also had solid defensive fronts (Houston, New Orleans, Tampa, etc.) Which goes back to my point in the SB thread: Seattle was potent against average defenses as their smaller receivers got open and they could pass protect. But no one, except you, is claiming Seattle has a, "really great offensive line."

 

[juiio]

It makes sense people doubted Wilson. His height was a big issue, plus he is a mobile QB and those are generally awful.

Wilson is a passing QB who can also run, not a running QB who can also pass.

 

[RampantAndroid]

It makes sense people doubted Wilson. His height was a big issue, plus he is a mobile QB and those are generally awful. I feel he was a solid 3rd round pick though. Nobody expected him to go earlier than that.

It wasn't an issue, it was a stupid talking point. Just like the stats leading to the superbowl saying the Bronco's offense was the best of all time.

 

[smackababy]

It wasn't an issue, it was a stupid talking point. Just like the stats leading to the superbowl saying the Bronco's offense was the best of all time.

It is not a talking point when you can count the number of good QBs shorter than 6' on one hand, the last being Doug Flutie.

Wilson's height could have been a problem. It doesn't look like it is (as he has little trouble in the pocket so far), but with the average O Lineman being 6'5, he is on his tippy toes.


I think Seattle made out like a bandit with that pick though, considering Osweiler went before Wilson.

 

[zinfamous]

It wasn't an issue, it was a stupid talking point. Just like the stats leading to the superbowl saying the Bronco's offense was the best of all time.

well, technically they are the best offense of all time. Though I am not sure if any of those metrics are normalized, to some degree, to account for the other top 10 offenses and the strength of the defenses they faced.

 

[Imported]

It is not a talking point when you can count the number of good QBs shorter than 6' on one hand, the last being Doug Flutie.

Wilson's height could have been a problem. It doesn't look like it is (as he has little trouble in the pocket so far), but with the average O Lineman being 6'5, he is on his tippy toes.


I think Seattle made out like a bandit with that pick though, considering Osweiler went before Wilson.

Wilson already had experience being behind tall offense linemen. Wisconsin typically has a great and big OL.

 

[Ban Bot]

Wilson already had experience being behind tall offense linemen. Wisconsin typically has a great and big OL.

Adding to that: Wilson also has large hands (10 1/4"), long arms (76" which is the average of a 6'4" person), and has a high throwing motion.

As you mentioned he proved he could play behind tall lines and the important measurable--are his hands large and strong enough to hold onto the ball and is his release point high enough to avoid knocked down passes--are all there. Furthermore, even though Wilson runs a 4.5 40 and is elusive he has always been a pass-first scrambler, NOT a "read option" QB. The point of release is pretty important as Wilson rarely gets balls knocked down, partly probably because he has to make an overt effort to find passing lanes but also because he releases the ball high (there are a lot of tall QBs with more side arm releases much lower than Wilson). I do think at times he has a problem seeing everything on the field in the pocket, especially no shallow drop backs, but part of that is experience.

ProFootballWeekly had fairly positive things to say but saw him as a backup.

Positives:
Graceful athlete — looks athletic in everything he does on the field. Poised. Has a quick, high release and very good arm strength. Nice touch. Throws naturally on the move or off balance and can alter his arm slot. Breaks down defenses with his legs — evades pressure with ease and is creative when the pocket breaks. Productive, elusive scrambler. Excellent third-down efficiency. Outstanding intangibles — mature, grounded, motivated athlete with a professional makeup and work ethic. Quickly assimilated and earned the respect of his new teammates.

Negatives:
Is short and height limits his field vision at times. Limited drop-back production. Inconsistent ball placement. Will vacate the pocket prematurely. Locks on to receivers. Has made some questionable decisions late in games (see East Carolina and Virginia Tech 2010, Michigan State 2011). Is under contract with the Colorado Rockies, and his commitment to football needs to be evaluated.

Per the Negatives put RGIII's name there and you can see how much height was used against Wilson. Obviously almost everyone was wrong--or they undervalued the positives. It makes you wonder how many GOOD QBs are overlooked. Brady is an all time great and he didn't fit the First Round Mold. Nor Montana. Or Brees. Marino was the 27th pick. There are a lot of early 1st round busts.

As an aside, for the naysayers how Seattle isn't that good (e.g. based on their tight game against SF) some things to chew on:

The NFC West went 30-10 against non-NFC West teams.

The NFC West went 42-22 (total record).

The NFC West went 17-7 against the other NFC divisions.

The NFC West went 13-3 against the AFC.

The next best division, the AFC west, went 37-27 (5 fewer wins) and only 26-22 in the AFC--this from a division that put 3 of the 4 teams into the AFC playoffs. They went 11-5 against the NFC but feasting primarily against the weak NFC East.

 

[Chaotic42]

I hate that after the Super Bowl I have to wait until August to see more football. =( They need a summer league or something.

Arena football should start right after the Super Bowl. Honestly I'd like to see football, basketball, and baseball partition the year. I only watch the first two, but apparently some people still care about baseball.

Hockey, soccer, and others can go wherever.

 

[davmat787]

The NFL needs a longer season. 16 games isn't enough. Adding more games won't dilute the season, because it is still every team has one game per week. Unlike basketball where you have teams playing every day or baseball where they play twice in one day.

Basketball is only worth watching in the playoffs, and since pretty much every team makes it, the regular season is completely worthless. Baseball is about as interesting as watching paint dry. You'd think with all the steroids, they'd be a lot more interesting to watch.

No, just no. 16 games is perfect, and with the focus on player safety an extended season won't happen anytime soon. If anything, a shortened preseason to 2 or more likely 3 games should happen.

Baseball is not for everyone as it is by far the most cerebral of all sport. At least you can take your kids to an MLB game, good luck doing that with an NFL game.

My fondest sports memory is of baseball. I went to every Randy Johnson home start in 1996. He was beyond amazing that season, and of course many others. That season he gave up a 550+ foot home run to Mark McGwire that landed about 20 feet from me.

For 20 bucks each, my friend and I could buy a ticket in the Southwest Airlines "Cloud Crowd" section and three Redhook beers. Ah, such good times.

 

[davmat787]

my cup--
it runneth over with the
tears of the mentally
defeated

()

Mel Kiper is such a douchebag. Sorry, but anytime the subject of NFL draft comes up I have to throw that out. He is always wrong, never called on it, and is allowed to do the same thing every year.

What credentials does he have to say a draft pick is good or bad seconds after it is made? What an asshole.

Much of what makes Russell Wilson great and such a winner can't be measured by any metric, same with some other players too.

 

[davmat787]

NBA should sell 4 teams--maybe send 2 to China and 2 to Lithuania.

:hmm:

What the NBA should do is return the stolen Sonics to Seattle. It will never happen, but at least I have the satisfaction of knowing Clay Bennett will burn in hell one day.

Kevin Durant and Serge Ibaka were drafted Sonics.

 

[davmat787]

Do you mind explaining your position above in bold regarding Seattle's offensive line?

I don't know anyone who believe Seattle has a really great offensive line. In fact most believe Seattle's offensive line is one of the worst in the league this season. I don't believe you have been watching Seattle closely based on comments like that. Some objective rankings of Seattle's O Line:.

*snipped rest of awesome analysis*

Yea, the OLine was decimated by injuries, early in the year especially. The upside of that is many rookies like Bowie gained some valuable experience.

Hopefully this years draft is deep in OL. Could probably use a TE as well. I liked Willsons play when he was healthy, and we could save some cap room cutting Miller.

What positional needs would you like to see filled in the draft?

 

[RampantAndroid]

well, technically they are the best offense of all time. Though I am not sure if any of those metrics are normalized, to some degree, to account for the other top 10 offenses and the strength of the defenses they faced.

Exactly my point. Just like Gone With the Wind grossed more money than Titanic when adjusting for inflation. I'm calling the Broncos severely inflated.

It is not a talking point when you can count the number of good QBs shorter than 6' on one hand, the last being Doug Flutie.

Wilson's height could have been a problem. It doesn't look like it is (as he has little trouble in the pocket so far), but with the average O Lineman being 6'5, he is on his tippy toes.


I think Seattle made out like a bandit with that pick though, considering Osweiler went before Wilson.

There's more than 10, actually IIRC. So no, you can't count them on one let alone TWO hands.

 

[rudeguy]

Exactly my point. Just like Gone With the Wind grossed more money than Titanic when adjusting for inflation. I'm calling the Broncos severely inflated.

No. Just no.

They were hands down the most dominant offense. Damn near perfect.

That is until they met the Hawks. If you want to say the Hawks were better, I'll give you that. But don't try to downplay how Denver played.

 

[zinfamous]

Exactly my point. Just like Gone With the Wind grossed more money than Titanic when adjusting for inflation. I'm calling the Broncos severely inflated.
.

domestic and international receipts?

:hmm:

No. Just no.

They were hands down the most dominant offense. Damn near perfect.

That is until they met the Hawks. If you want to say the Hawks were better, I'll give you that. But don't try to downplay how Denver played.

again, it is worthwhile to consider the other top 10 offenses in history and the defenses they played. Pretty much anyone agrees that Denver had a more or less cupcake schedule this year, only running into trouble when merely competent defenses took away one or two of their tricks--look at the SD game in the last couple of weeks of regular season.

 

[BUTCH1]

No. Just no.

They were hands down the most dominant offense. Damn near perfect.

That is until they met the Hawks. If you want to say the Hawks were better, I'll give you that. But don't try to downplay how Denver played.

So was "the greatest show on turf", lost to the Pat's in 2002, so was the 2007 Pats, lost the the Giants (twice). There is an undervaluing of a disrupting front seven that can jam and re-route receivers and get pressure and force hurried throws from the QB. IMHO the greatest upset didn't happen in a SB, it was the Dolphins taking down the Bears on Monday night football in 1985, a finesse passing team with a quick-release QB with no running game to speak of vs one of the best defense's ever to have been put together, being a Pat's fan I usually root against the Fins but I had to jump ship for that game with the Bears running their chops all week implying the dolphins had little chance of stopping their so-far undefeated season, watching it 29 years later still gives me chills... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m0SzNtY9WI

 

[Ban Bot]

What positional needs would you like to see filled in the draft?

I will reply to this in the draft thread.