Thurlow says that Kerry's version of the events of March 13, 1969, is simply wrong. "His story is a total fabrication," Thurlow says. One of the Swift Boats did hit a mine that day, Thurlow says, but much of the rest of Kerry's story is inaccurate. "This thing about being under intense enemy fire is a falsehood...There was no fire off either bank [of the river]. This thing about getting Jim out of the river under a hail of bullets with these serious injuries is totally fabricated."
HURLEY: This is from George Elliott, one of John Kerry?s commanders in Vietnam. This is the recommendation for the award of the Bronze Star. And he talks about a little bit in this.
Then he says: ?Shortly after starting their exit from this river, a mine detonated under one of the boats, PCF-3, lifting it two feet above the water and wounded everyone on board. Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated, close aboard PCF-94, knocking First Lieutenant Rassmann into the water and wounding Lieutenant J.G. Kerry in the right arm.? It goes on that PCF-4 provided cover fire, that they received sniper fire from the riverbanks. ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry, from his exposed position on the bow of the boat, managed to pull Lieutenant Rassmann aboard despite the painful wound in his right arm.
?Meanwhile, PCF-94 gunners provided accurate suppressing fire.? It concludes by saying: ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry proved himself to be calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire.? That is signed by George Elliott, one of these same guys now who is saying, oh, but I remember it differently and I want to change my mind.
What Elliott said in the ad is that Kerry "has not been honest about what happened in Viet Nam." In his original affidavit Elliott said Kerry had not been "forthright" in Vietnam. The only example he offered of Kerry not being "honest" or "forthright" was this: "For example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back.
In the Globe story, Elliott is quoted as saying it was a "terrible mistake" to sign that statement:
George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. . . . I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.
Another prominent figure in the anti-Kerry book as well as the ad denouncing Kerry, retired Lt. Commander George Elliott, recanted his statement last week in interviews with at least two news sources and then recounted his recant. Elliott also supported Kerry in his 1996 campaign and told a Boston audience that he felt the Senator "deserved the medals he won in Vietnam."
O?Neill further destroyed his credibility by appearing on CNN after assuring the network he had not spoke out publicly about Kerry this year. CNN later had to retract their claim of an ?exclusive? interview after they learned O?Neill appeared on C-Span to discuss Kerry in March.
Elliott had a much different opinion of Kerry at the time than in the ad. In a fitness report on Kerry, dated Dec. 18, 1969, he stated that "in a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed...LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group."
Capt. Roy Hoffmann: "I told them you not only have authority," Hoffmann now says, "I damned well expect action. If there were men there and they didn?t kill them or capture them, you?d hear from me."
?They seek retribution by fabricating stories to destroy Kerry,? Brinkley says. ?Hoffman, in particular lacks credibility.?
On May 6, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter Steve Schultze, interviewed Hoffman and wrote ?Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally.?
On August 5, however, Hoffman told Sean Hannity on his ABC radio show that "I knew him (Kerry) well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats."
?It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.) Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.?
But it is with regard to the latter sentence of the charge that O?Neill and others get vague.
When asked by NewsMax if they had in mind any potential smoking gun of distortion that might be revealed by an unfettered examination of Kerry?s military records, there was no answer forthcoming.
Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage's radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was "not on the boat with him [Kerry]" when that injury occurred...
...in at least two interviews, Gardner has falsely claimed that he was present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of awards...
...In an apparent attempt to substantiate his status as an eyewitness to key Kerry events, Gardner claimed on Scarborough Country, "[T]hat boat never left the dock that I wasn't aboard it with John Kerry, never. I was with that boat everywhere we went." Gardner went on to make assertions regarding the events that occurred on March 13, 1969, involving Kerry's rescue of Jim Rassmann, for which Kerry received the Bronze Star. Gardner claimed to know that Kerry fled the scene on the river that day while the other three boats stayed and that Kerry then "turned around and came all the way back to pick up Mr. Rassmann that he had thrown off his boat when he took off, when he fled down the canal." But later in the show, Gardner admitted to not being present that day. When Scarborough attempted to revisit the "March 13, 1969 incident," Gardner said, "I'm not going to deal with that. Because I wasn't there."...
...On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts "were superficial wounds, and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened." But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, Gardner went on to admit: "I was not on the boat with him but I -- in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations."
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars? because they only saw Kerry run away from combat instead of actually being on the boat that ran away.
"If the Bush campaign truly disapproved of this smear, their top lawyer wouldn't be involved with the Swift boat veterans group,'' Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said.
:disgust: I like how he says "A group of decorated..." Yeah, whatever. A group of decorated Vets now saying their decoration are not valid because the whole thing was a lie. Hmm. How to untangle all of their lies. IT might be impossible!Ginsberg said that a group of "decorated Vietnam War veterans came to me and said, 'We have an important point to get out in the debate under the First Amendment, the American right of free expression. ... Help us,' they said, and I did."
Well sure, they're going to be cautious enough that direct collusion can't be proved in the timeframe we have leading up to the election.... :disgust:Don Simon, an election-law expert with the campaign finance watchdog group Democracy 21, said Ginsberg's dual role "is not per se coordination" between the Bush campaign and the veterans group. That would occur only if Ginsberg has been transferring information between the two ? a question that likely would not be resolved before the election even if the FEC chooses to investigate the matter. But, Simon said that "as a matter of common sense, it certainly raises questions."
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars? because they only saw Kerry run away from combat instead of actually being on the boat that ran away.
Kerry has 45million in this kind of ?soft? money going against bush, the conservatives only have 9 million in cash that bypasses the intent of the law. That the conservatives have found something to truly call Kerry on is what?s making the only real difference in exposure.
Originally posted by: Insane3D
The whole thing disgusts me personally, and reminds me why I never liked politics. I get the sense these SBVT guys are simply Bush supporters who are still upset with Kerry because he spoke out when returning from the war, so they are returning the favor in their minds. Personally, I know Kerry was there fighting for this country, and that's enough for me. I think questioning Bush's record is equally stupid.
I wish we were talking about actual issues, and who's going to do what if they get elected/re-elected, and not wasting everyones time with this crap that seems to only be for the partisan junkies that love this type of stuff.
Originally posted by: BDawg
While you're at it, can we have just one thread for all of Rip's posts too?
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good
Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good
Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.
Show me Clintons wounds from Vietnam.
Show me Edwards wounds from Vietnam.
Show me Michael Moores wounds from Vietnam. ETC...ETC...
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good
Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.
Show me Clintons wounds from Vietnam.
Show me Edwards wounds from Vietnam.
Show me Michael Moores wounds from Vietnam. ETC...ETC...
I'll be sure not to vote for Clinton nor Moore come November.
Oh, btw, show me Cheney's wounds from Vietnam, too.
Originally posted by: Ozoned
If John Kerry wants to end this debate, he needs to release his Vietnam records!
It is sad that this issue will define the election.
Come on John. Submit a form 180 to the DoD and make it all go away.
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Show me Bush's wounds and bruises from going to Vietnam.
Show me Clintons wounds from Vietnam.
Show me Edwards wounds from Vietnam.
Show me Michael Moores wounds from Vietnam. ETC...ETC...
Originally posted by: daveshel
And a lawyer for the Bush campaign has been involved in the smear campaign.
Link
That makes two. So much for clean hands, eh?