Official Swiftboat Thread

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Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,662
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Originally posted by: KarenMarie
I go away for a few days... come back.. and you guys are still rehashing the same old shit!!!

Good Lord. Here is what I have found out... from a neutral standpoint....

Kerry said...
VOTE FOR ME.. I am a vet... wounded...3 purple hearts.. and medals out the WAZOO!!!
It is the DNC and I will not talk about the issues in my speech, I will talk about ... I am a vet... wounded...3 purple hearts.. and medals out the WAZOO!!! I will not talk about my past, or my voting record, or anything else.. I will ONLY talk about ...I am a vet... wounded...3 purple hearts.. and medals out the WAZOO!!

Well, what he didn't expect is that a bunch of other vietnam vets have a total hard on for his actions and behaviour during, but mostly AFTER the war... when Kerry was accusing his fellow soldiers, and making all kinds of war crime claims... and burning flags and writing anti-American books.... and they want to see him fall... and no matter what they have to do, they will do it... ads, internet, books, WHATEVER... they will drag the butler's dog into the fray if they think it will help their "Kerry is a fraud" campaign. Many of them were found to have discrepencies in their stories....

BUT.. Kerry has discrepencies of his own....

The difference being that.... the accusers WANT to face Kerry and Kerry ONLY wants to delfect the blame to Bush!!!
Kerry actually WENT to vietnam, while Bush bought his way out... his rivals say...
And that is soooo true... Bush, and many others... pulled string, called in favors, bought ppl off... just to NOT have to go to Vietnam...
That is NOT the issue....

There are questions about Kerry's war medals... There are questions about his war record, and his service... the more ppl dig, the more discrepencies there are.... There are bad things found out about the accusers, yes.. but that does NOT take away from the fact that there are discrepencies in Kerry's war record that he wanted to be elected on... There are questions about his AFTER war record... His Flag burning - anti American days....

Bush says... I want ALL ads taken off... Bush says... Kerry was more heroic than I...
And yet.... Kerry STILL will not face the vets... the ppl he accused... the ppl he maligned...
And the repsonse from the Kerry campagin... ???????

This is a SERIOUS issue.. it is hurting Kerry badly..... and he will not face it... will not answer it... will not do anything else but attack Bush on it.....

Let's put this to bed already.... Kerry should face the ppl he accused, the vets he maligned.... release ALL of his records... sign the form...

then... he will have an open forum to talk about the issues and get my vote. Bush Sucks... but Kerry is sinking fast!!!


Not too bad of a job. Congratulations. Now, figure out the answer to a few more things and you'll know how to vote. One, why did Kerry choose to make the centerpiece of his campaign against an incumbent president a 35 year old war record instead of his more recent political record? Two, exactly what does he intend to do if elected and how does he hope to get it accomplished? Three, what is the most important REAL issue that you feel this nation is facing in the next four years, and which candidate, Kerry or Bush, seems as though they would be the most effective dealing with it? Use your instincts and trust your conscience. Then you can be happy with whomever you choose to support.

Forget finding any real answers amongst all the insane rhetoric you see here and most everywhere else from rabid partisans on both sides of this battle as its just that. Insane, and only going to get more so in the next couple of months, and thats just the nature of politics. Most partisans, self included, are going to support "our man", regardless, no matter which side of the political spectrum we're on, because we long ago gave up the hard work of being independent in favor of the more comfortable and easy route of identifying with a general philosophy and aligning ourselves with the party which most closely matches it. My own political philosophy weighs in at about 50/50 conservative/libertarian so until something better comes along its the Republican party for me. I'm not exactly overjoyed with them though. I guess you could say I dislike them the least, but every year its getting to be a smaller and smaller percentage of my dislike for the Democrats and their political philosophy. If a movement ever comes along that will support true CONSTITUTIONAL government, and has a real chance of winning then thats where I'll be hanging my hat because I'm a staunch believer in the old adage, "That government is best which governs least." Until then, I'll just have to settle for the lesser of two evils, which pretty much sums up the choice you, along with the rest of the "undecideds" have to make.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Yup we need a re-format of all the drives, leaving only the C:, the consitution, and adding and 3/5th supermajority amendment to pass any law. I'm honestly not voting simply because they are both statists of the highest order and no matter what I'm gonna get screwed. Identify more with liberals only because of thier "helping the meek" which is biblical in nature. Actually that's probably the only thing I like about the party so I'm about 80% libertarian which leaves no real candidate to vote for. If I lived in TX, Id vote for Ron Paul though.
 

stnicralisk

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2004
1,705
1
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Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..<BR><BR>he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)<BR><BR>meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).<BR>Attacking GWB's military service<BR><BR>gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.

Its so awesome... Kerry publicly denounced the attacks on GWB's record... I might love this thread.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
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Well, Mrs Dubya is now officially fair game. She thinks the smear campaign agsint Kerry is A-OK? I'm sure she taught their daughters well..... "yes, dear, just stick your tongue out at the news people. They're a bunch of left wing scum"
She should have stayed in the kitchen.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: stnicralisk
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..<BR><BR>he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)<BR><BR>meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).<BR>Attacking GWB's military service<BR><BR>gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.

Its so awesome... Kerry publicly denounced the attacks on GWB's record... I might love this thread.


Well sir, they you must stand up and say John McCain is a hypocrite for telling GWB that he should "be ashamed" of what he did to him in the primary race in 2000. Are you prepared to do that? Didn't think so. Bush did the same thing to McCain that he's doing now to Kerry. McCain called him out on it in the Larry King interview, Kerry called him out as well. Not hypocritical at all, in my opinion.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,459
527
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Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
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Today's NYT. Anyone else think this guy is complete slime?

Among the stoutest defenders of "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," the best-selling book arguing that Mr. Kerry lied about his record of service in Vietnam, is the columnist Robert Novak.

In his syndicated columns and on the CNN program "Crossfire," Mr. Novak has lauded the book and referred to veterans who criticize Mr. Kerry - most notably John E. O'Neill, the book's co-author - as "real patriots."

Unmentioned in Mr. Novak's columns and television appearances, however, is a personal connection he has to the book: his son, Alex Novak, is the director of marketing for its publisher, the conservative publishing house Regnery.

In a telephone interview, Robert Novak said he saw no need to disclose the link.

"I don't think it's relevant," he said.

"I'm just functioning as a columnist with a point of view, and a strong point of view," he added.
 

sillymofo

Banned
Aug 11, 2003
5,817
2
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Once again, if you think being on a swift boat in Vietnam (doesn't matter when or where) is a pleasure cruise, then you're a fcuking idiot. They didn't make them boat pound for pound the most heavily armed boat of any kind because they're "pleasure boats"... fcuking morons... quit believing every damn things you read.

And Karen Marie, you are anything but neutral, quit trying to BS. If you are so neutral, then why your questions only directed one way?
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: cr4zymofo
Once again, if you think being on a swift boat in Vietnam (doesn't matter when or where) is a pleasure cruise, then you're a fcuking idiot. They didn't make them boat pound for pound the most heavily armed boat of any kind because they're "pleasure boats"... fcuking morons... quit believing every damn things you read.

And Karen Marie, you are anything but neutral, quit trying to BS. If you are so neutral, then why your questions only directed one way?

It was a parody, did you even click on it or are you just rabidly hiting reply and cussing?
 

sillymofo

Banned
Aug 11, 2003
5,817
2
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Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: cr4zymofo
Once again, if you think being on a swift boat in Vietnam (doesn't matter when or where) is a pleasure cruise, then you're a fcuking idiot. They didn't make them boat pound for pound the most heavily armed boat of any kind because they're "pleasure boats"... fcuking morons... quit believing every damn things you read.

And Karen Marie, you are anything but neutral, quit trying to BS. If you are so neutral, then why your questions only directed one way?

It was a parody, did you even click on it or are you just rabidly hiting reply and cussing?
Rabidly hiting reply and cussing :laugh:... but, that's for all the other idiots that still argues that Kerry didn't earn his medals (not towards you, of course). OK, so there might be discrepancies, but I'm sure he didn't fabricate the events, the errors migth be administrative. Secondly, you can get injured three times in one day or even get killed three times over, let alone months in Vietnam. I've mentioned once and again, PT boats are not a cruising duty, for those nintendo arm chair generals that have no clues or personal account of what the fcuk goes on in war.

Not saying that I have either, but at least I was in the military to know how it operates. The closest I've been to war is watching F-18s drop bombs in Bosnia on CNN, and wait for them to come back and fix them. But, I've heard stories from my dad, who was a war veteran. Sure there was war crimes on both sides, but, hey, after a fire fight and seeing more than half of your platoon wiped out, you tend to do crazy things to your enemies. It's not acceptable, but, it happened. Some of the stories he told me would make me question the sanity of the man, but hey, that shiet was >30 years ago, he sure has let it go. For you asswipes that weren't even involed, I'm sure you can too.

OK, so you say the issue is now right? Alright then, drop this swiftboat craps and lets ask some questions that has to do with now. I don't have any questions to ask, because I don't really care.... either way, GWB will be "re-elected", and he will get egged in his inaugural day, and some other shiets will happen, and we'll invade some other countries. But that's the next episode.......

EDIT: Oh, and I've received medals that to this day, I still have no ideas what the fcuk was for... for being there I guess. Those that are or was in the military can concur with me on this.
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
MISSION: IMPLAUSIBLE
Another discrepancy
erodes Kerry's story
Conflicting version of Rassman heroics
supports claim made by swiftboat vets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 31, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Art Moore
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

In a eulogy entered into the Congressional Record six years ago, John Kerry gave a conflicting version of the now-famous incident during the Vietnam War in which he rescued Special Forces officer Jim Rassman.

Rassman's dramatic on-stage reunion with Kerry 34 years later, just before the crucial Iowa caucuses in January, is regarded by some political analysts as the campaign's catalyst to victory and the eventual Democratic presidential nomination.

Rassman, a former Green Beret, wrote recently in a Wall Street Journal editorial posted on the Kerry campaign website that he was blown off of Kerry's swiftboat, PCF-94, by a mine blast on March 13, 1969.

But in a eulogy for crew member Thomas Belodeau, which Kerry entered into the Congressional Record in 1998 [pdf file], the senator said Rassman fell overboard when the swiftboat made an abrupt turn on the Bay Hap River, not as a result of the mine blast.

There was the time we were carrying special forces up a river and a mine exploded under our boat sending it 2 feet into the air. We were receiving incoming rocket and small arms fire and Tommy was returning fire with his M?60 machine gun when it literally broke apart in his hands.

He was left holding the pieces unable to fire back while one of the Green Berets [Rassman] walked along the edge of the boat to get Tommy another M?60. As he was doing so, the boat made a high speed turn to starboard and the Green Beret kept going -- straight into the river.

That apparent conflict in Kerry's own retelling of events adds to already existing confusion over whether Rassman was on Kerry's boat or on another of the five boats on that mission. For example, Douglas Brinkley, author of Kerry's authorized war biography "Tour of Duty," wrote in an article published by American History magazine that Rassman was on another boat, PCF-3, when he was blown overboard by a mine. But Rassman and the Kerry campaign say the Special Forces officer was on Kerry's boat.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the 254 former officers and enlisted men who contend Kerry is unfit to be commander in chief, has offered numerous eyewitness affidavits to tell a story that differs radically from Kerry's various accounts. But the 1998 eulogy version actually agrees with the swiftboat group's description of how Rassman went into the water.

Lt. (j.g.) Larry Thurlow, who commanded PCF-51 on that mission, told WorldNetDaily he's certain Rassman was not blown from Kerry's boat by a mine.

"I will guarantee you that didn't happen," he said, noting the eulogy was "all news to me."

The eulogy was unearthed from the Congressional Record in a report by the weblog BeldarBlog.

The Kerry campaign's veterans affairs section, headed by John Hurley, did not respond to WND's request for comment.

In addition to denying the mine blast, Thurlow claims Kerry's boat was near the right side of the river, which means the bow would have plowed into the bank if it indeed had made a "high speed turn to starboard," or the right.

Thurlow, and other eyewitnesses in the swiftboat group, also contend there was no enemy fire. Further, Thurlow believes it's unlikely Rassman would have been sent to retrieve another M-60, because each boat normally had only one of those heavy weapons, which was fired from a set position on the bow.

"That's a great eulogy for a shipmate," Thurlow said, "and I'm sure that made [Belodeau's] family proud, but ... this is where, to me, John is always getting himself in trouble. He loves to tell a good story, and he loves to be in the center of it."

Thurlow appears in the first television ad launched by the swiftboat vets group, saying "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."

Jerome Corsi, co-author with former swiftboat commander John O'Neill of "Unfit for Command: Swiftboat Veterans Speak out Against John Kerry," says he and his colleagues noticed the inconsistenices in Kerry's stories as they compiled the best-selling book, set to top the New York Times list.

The question of which boat Rassman was on has not been resolved by the Kerry campaign, he said, but the eulogy is the first evidence of an admission that it was the acceleration of Kerry's boat that caused Rassman to fall off.

Thurlow acknowledged, however, that one of his crew members, retired Chief Petty Officer Robert E. Lambert, of Eagle Point, Ore., recently has come forward to back Kerry's and Rassman's assertion they were under enemy fire.

Lambert's account supports the Navy record, but Thurlow and others contend that record is based on Kerry's false after-action report.

Lambert, Thurlow and Kerry all were awarded Bronze Stars for their efforts during that incident. Kerry received a third Purple Heart, allowing him to leave Vietnam, but the swiftboat vets' group claims one wound was self-inflicted, from an event earlier that day, and another was only a minor contusion.

"I thought we were under fire, I believed we were under fire," Lambert told the Associated Press.

Thurlow called Lambert a "fantastic sailor" and doesn't doubt his sincerity.

"He does have a different remembrance," Thurlow said. "I'm not questioning his memory, but my memory is not of any [enemy] fire."

Thurlow, along with swiftboat skippers Jack Chenowith and Richard Pees and gunner Van Odell, say the March 13 incident was touched off when the five boats approached a fishing weir across the river, a series of poles to which nets attach.

The boats were moving in an inverted spear formation, Thurlow said, with Kerry's boat on the right, running parallel to Pees' PCF-3. Each one had a boat following closely behind, and Thurlow brought up the rear, in the middle.

Kerry's boat moved around the weir on the right while Pees went to the left when suddenly a mine detonated beneath Pees' boat, sending it several feet into the air and knocking some crew members overboard, according to Odell.

With one of its diesel engines disabled, the badly damaged PCF-3 began to weave wildly as the other engine remained stuck at 500 RPM.

Thurlow said his gunner sent a hail of bullets across the shoreline then stopped when it became apparent there was no enemy fire.

All of the remaining boats, except Kerry's, closed in on PCF-3 to rescue its crew members, contend Thurlow, Chenoweth, Pees and Odell.

Kerry's boat fled, they say, and by the time it returned, the rescue operation already was underway. Kerry plucked Rassman out of the water, they assert, just before Chenowith was about to reach him.

Kerry has stated his boat was the only one to stay back and rescue Rassman, and Rassman has insisted he was the only one in the water.

But Kerry's campaign has had to concede that PCF-3, at the very least, could not have left the scene because it was dead in the water from the mine blast.


 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: wiin
MISSION: IMPLAUSIBLE
Another discrepancy
erodes Kerry's story
Conflicting version of Rassman heroics
supports claim made by swiftboat vets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 31, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Art Moore
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

John Kerry gave a conflicting version of the now-famous incident during the Vietnam War in which he rescued Special Forces officer Jim Rassman.

Wow. What a yawner that article was. Too bad it has all already been debunked. I guess you should email Rassman and inform him that if he would like to know EXACTLY what happened that day, to read the WorldNetDaily.com

That will clear it all up for him.

:roll:
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
wiin


Some reports say he was blown out of the other boat, some say he was blown out of Kerry's when the mine went off. Some say he fell out. This is all old news and in the heat of battle, who remembers. Thurlowe says he wasn't shot at but a member of his crew on the boat at the time says they were shot at from both sides of the river.

Why is it Bush can't remember where he was for a year? Why is it he has so few records to go over and try to pick apart? Maybe because he didn't do anything except get a million dollars worth of training at the taxpayers expense and then didn't even bother to fly his plane because he didn't want to take a drug test. He had 3 months time to take that test and wasn't able to manage it?

I guess that's not surprising to me when you look at the way he's managed the country the last 4 years.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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Shame on all the neocons on this board who want to strip Kerry of his awards and belittle his service. Shame on you....
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Oh, What the hell . . .

Viet Cong Vetrans for Kerry Yahoo/Associated Press

Too 'Glitchy' to post the link, so here's the text:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 50-foot Swift boats were easy targets as they plowed through the waterways of the Mekong Delta in packs of three or four, making big waves and thunderous noise when approaching. Former Viet Cong soldier Duong Hoang Sinh remembers them well ? the one time he tangled with three Swift boats, the Americans killed all of the insurgents in his unit except for two.

"It was very fierce fighting," said Sinh, 52, who lost his left eye during the war and still has shrapnel embedded in his arm. "Each side tried to eliminate the other."

Sinh and John Kerry, the U.S. Democratic presidential nominee, were fighting along the Dong Cung canal around roughly the same time 35 years ago in early 1969, experiencing the intensity of war along these muddy waters, but from opposite sides.

Although Sinh had never heard of Kerry, he has a strong opinion about the debate surrounding the candidate's Vietnam War record as a U.S. Navy Swift boat commander: Kerry must have had guts to troll the Mekong Delta's spider web of rivers and narrow canals knowing that Viet Cong like himself were waiting to pick him off.

"Kerry served in Vietnam and he was awarded the medal for his bravery," Sinh said. "He deserves the medal."

The memories of the Swift boat battles in these waters are now being sharply scrutinized under the divisive lens of the U.S. presidential election, where Kerry's actions under fire have been disputed by a group of veterans.

As a Navy lieutenant, Kerry commanded two Swift boat units, PCF-44 and PCF-94, in Vietnam in late 1968 and early 1969. He was awarded three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star.

Kerry's actions in several of those instances ? including a March 13, 1969 incident when he rescued U.S. Army Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann under enemy fire; a February 28, 1969 incident when he chased and killed a Viet Cong fighter; and a December 1968 incident when he was wounded ? have been challenged in a series of television ads aired by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

They claim he did not come under heavy enemy fire as his medal citations state. But other veterans of the "brown water navy" who witnessed the fighting, along with Navy documents from that time, have backed Kerry's version of events.

The Associated Press took a boat tour along the same rivers and canals of the Mekong Delta that served as a battleground for Kerry. The people who live here now have worked hard to put the fighting behind them, but the memories persist.

When Kerry and Sinh plied these muddy waterways, mangroves grew thick on both sides of the Bay Hap River, forming a bushy shield of impenetrable green. It was perfect cover for Viet Cong guerillas who laid waiting to ambush the clunky U.S. Swift boats.

Sinh recalled one morning in February 1969 when he and six other insurgents watched silently from their hiding spot in the thick forest that grew along the banks of the Dong Cung canal, about 7.5 kilometers, or 4.7 miles, off the Bay Hap River in Vietnam's southernmost province of Ca Mau.

When the U.S. Navy boats rumbled into view, the Viet Cong were in for a shock as the Americans began firing on them. Sinh recalled his comrade got off one good shot from a B-40 rocket launcher, blasting a hole in the side of one vessel. But it wasn't enough. The Americans charged, unloading a hail of bullets, and Sinh realized this was not a fight his unit could win.

"We got more fire from the American soldiers after that. We tried to fight back, but decided to flee," he said.

He believes the Americans must have had intelligence about the planned ambush that day because the three U.S. boats fired first. Five of his comrades died, including his buddy who fired the crippling blast. Sinh escaped by fleeing into the dense forest.

He said it was the first and last time he fired at Swift boats along the waterways where he grew up. Not long after, he was sent away from his family in Dong Cung village to fight elsewhere, which is why he remembers the date so well. His village was renamed Tran Thoi after the war.

To Sinh and those who still live along the Mekong Delta, the controversy over Kerry's tour of duty in Vietnam is dumbfounding. Since the war ended in 1975, they have reveled in peace and more recently, economic growth.


"I think it's American politics," said Nguyen Van Khoai, 61, a former Viet Cong soldier who attacked American troops along the water but never fought directly against the Swift boats. "On any side, a soldier who made an outstanding feat is given a medal ? but maybe some people try to think otherwise."

The area that once crawled with Viet Cong has changed. The thick mangrove forests that lined both sides of the Bay Hap River, Dong Cung canal and other tributaries are mostly gone. Some canals just wide enough for the U.S. Navy boats to pass through are double in size today.

Many more thatch houses are perched on stilts along the water's edge and small speed boats now zoom past. Shrimp farms litter the landscape where forests once grew, and the names of many wartime canals and villages have been changed.

Cai Nuoc village where Kerry put in on March 13, 1969 ? the day for which he was awarded his third Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for rescuing Rassmann ? has ballooned into a district. Cafes abound along the water here as well as shops selling a wide variety of wares, including shiny bathroom tile. A thriving floating market also bustles where mounds of ripe rambutan, pomelo and bananas form a rainbow of color.

But much also remains the same. The water is still dotted with children splashing and men checking fishing nets attached to crude sticks poking out of the river. The smell of diesel fuel and smoke is in the air and stinging downpours still come in the afternoon.

Many of the residents here in the Mekong Delta have never heard of Kerry. They do, however, remember the Swift boats and the Americans who roared by aboard them.

"I was very scared when I heard the American boats coming up the canal, so I had to hide in my back yard," said Phu Thi Nguyet, 60, who has lived along the Dong Cung canal since 1960.

For those who have followed the debate, the Kerry controversy is confusing.

"It's very strange in a way. It's just a small thing, but they have made it into a big deal," said Lam The Hung, 42, a native of Cai Nuoc village who now serves as a provincial official in Ca Mau. "The fact that one soldier rescued another ? that happened thousands of times among the Vietnamese, so I don't understand."

Hung said he's also puzzled by the uproar over Kerry's decision to join the anti-war movement upon returning home. He said Kerry's actions proved he learned a lot during his time in Vietnam and that he wanted to keep other Americans from dying here.

"When they went home, they knew the nature of the war and the people here were innocent and they knew it was nonsense to wage war here," said Hung, whose two older brothers joined the Viet Cong and laid mines in the rivers where the Swift boats operated.

And while Kerry may be worried about veterans' support in America, Sinh said he would vote any day for his former enemy over President Bush. In the veteran's opinion, Kerry's experience along these rivers fighting Viet Cong might keep him from sending other young Americans to invade countries.

"He knew the suffering and how much misery it brought to the people of Vietnam ? he knew the cruelty of war," Sinh said. "So, I don't think he would go to war again if he's elected."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Go figure . . . . ?
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
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In case anyone is interested, here's part of the original transcript for "Unfit for Command" w/ editor's remarks...

http://www.washingtonmonthly.c...2004/0410.levine2.html

The Washington Monthly has obtained a memo containing excerpts from the original manuscript of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's book, Unfit for Command, including editor's notes.
To: John O'Neill, author Unfit for Command
From: Chip Regnery IV
Re: double-checking your mss.


Dear John:

In the rush to get your book to press, our president Marjorie Ross has asked me to take over the final edit of Unfit for Command. We're very high on the book's prospects to be a smash bestseller -- and, we hope, affect the presidential race. A personal note: I wasn't born until 1973, so your book was a real education for me on the Vietnam War and the way left-wingers like Kerry have distorted what happened there. I had no idea, for example, that virtually all the so-called "atrocities" in Vietnam were either done by Kerry himself or made up out of whole cloth by Seymour Hersh. What an eye-opener! Of course, I have a few minor questions and comments I'd like you to check, noted in brackets. All in all, you've made an air-tight case against Kerry.

Get back to me as soon as you can on these items, and we'll ship the final galleys to you for proofing. Here are the sections we'd like you to revise or double-check:

JOHN KERRY: CHARLATAN OR WAR CRIMINAL?

John Kerry has built his entire political career on the myth that he is a "war hero." But Sen. John Kerry is no hero, as I and the other Swift Boat veterans who fought alongside him know all too well. He is a liar, a coward, a psychopathic baby-killer -- and should have been executed for treason a long time ago. [Tone it down a bit here, please. We don't want to lose readers at the beginning -- ed.] Instead, he's a candidate for president who claims he deserves to be the commander in chief of the United States. But as someone who has engaged in the most reprehensible conduct in the history of mankind [what about Hitler?], Kerry doesn't deserve to be a petty officer third class, let alone the commander in chief of our great country. He must be stopped by any means necessary [Cut this! Sounds like you're promoting his assassination.] before he betrays our country again just to serve his insane ambition. This lying son of a bitch will stab our country in the back just like he did his fellow Navy men over 30 years ago. [Way too emotional. How about "hypocrite" instead of S.O.B.?]

John Kerry served in Vietnam for only four months. Yet he still managed to hoodwink his commanding officers into giving him three Purple Hearts, which allowed him to flee combat to pursue his goal of selling out America as an anti-war protester. He did it by "gaming" the Navy rules that allow any sailor to claim awards for combat injuries merely by filling out the official "E-Z I WANT A PURPLE HEART" form and sending it in without verification to headquarters. [Is it that easy? Double-check.] In fact, according to most Swift Boat veterans who either served on nearby boats or heard rumors about him from his crewmates, Kerry only had a few minor scratches that he deliberately inflicted on himself. They were not the result of any hostile fire.

Take a look at John Kerry's first Purple Heart he won for a made-up "incident" on Dec. 2, 1968. He says he was patrolling on a "skimmer" boat near Cam Ramh Bay when he was wounded by shrapnel fire while bending down to pick up another gun. In fact, before the so-called "attack," Kerry actually practiced with different weapons the best way to give himself a plausible wound. Here's what we were told by now-Rear Adm. William Schachte, who was not only a crewmate but also Kerry's best man when Kerry married his first wife in 1970 [Are you sure about that part?]:

"In the early-morning darkness, I saw him pick up a pen-knife and scratch his upper arm with it a few times. He was cackling to himself, and I'll never forget it. After that, he got a gun, placed the muzzle against his arm, but he couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger. Finally, he bent down and picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and kept it close to his arm while he turned his head away from the weapon, grimaced and fired away. Finally, he got the shrapnel wound he always wanted. It still didn't amount to much." [Great stuff! Any back-up evidence?]

Kerry then demanded that the boat rush to a sickbay miles away so he could be "treated." The sole attending physician was Dr. Louis Letson. Already an expert on wounds, Dr. Letson told us, he would years later win the Nobel Prize for Medicine for his discovery of the cellular mechanisms underlying infections. [You verified his award? Reminder: please Google your interview subjects! We don't have a fact-checking staff anymore.] Letson vividly recalled that when Kerry appeared at the sickbay, the doctor asked him, "Why are you here?" in surprise, observing Kerry's unimpressive scratch. "I've been wounded in hostile fire, and if I'm ever going to be president of the United States, I must win a Purple Heart!" Kerry pleaded. Dr. Letson was shocked by Kerry's naked ambition, but treated him anyway. Using a nuclear microscope, Letson said, he finally spotted the subatomic sliver of shrapnel and removed it with a tweezer.

While other sailors and soldiers lost their lives and limbs in 'Nam, and George W. Bush trained for years in the Air National Guard to protect our country, John Kerry got a quick ride home by concocting his Purple Heart "wounds."

JOHN KERRY: MASS MURDERER

John Kerry burst on the national stage with an appalling attack on his fellow soldiers in 1971 before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He compared all of us who served in Vietnam to Genghis Khan, raping and killing civilians. Yet if anyone was guilty of such behavior, it was Kerry himself. Numerous Coastal Division 11 Swiftees recall his bloodthirsty hunger to kill civilians. Swift Boat veteran Bill Franke, a Silver Star winner, remembers seeing Kerry at the helm of his boat, PCF 21, speeding up and down the Cua Lon River, hunting for any Vietnamese to kill. Franke says:

"His motto was 'The more kills, the more medals for me.' I was shocked. Even during daytime patrols, Kerry routinely attacked sampans with fishermen on them who were just dangling their poles in the water. Then he ordered his men to kill everyone on the boats, women and babies included. Afterwards, acting more like a pirate than a naval officer, he led his crew in raiding the boats to steal anything of value on board, mostly fish. Then he ordered his cook to prepare his favorite French gourmet fish dishes from his Swiss boarding school days, such as Filet de Poisson aux Pommes. His crew always ate well after a massacre."

But waterway kills weren't enough to satisfy Kerry's blood-lust. Once, early in his 1968 tour of duty, he saw smoke rising from a small village called My Lai. [He was there? Please double-check My Lai massacre date with Kerry's timeline in Vietnam.] He disembarked, and while Swifties in other boats looked on in horror, he waded into the jungle to join the carnage. [Check: How far inland from the river was My Lai?]

As George Bates, an officer in Coastal Division 11, remembers it:

"Those Marines were on some kind of search and destroy mission that had gotten out of control. They were bayonetting old men, shooting old women and children, it was horrible. But Kerry, always the brown-noser, saw a chance to make up another combat medal for himself. 'Hey, let me help!' Kerry shouted, and eagerly joined in. He warmed up by killing numerous small animals with heavy machine-gun fire. He then moved on to shooting little children and throwing their bodies in a ditch. Finally, he ran around the hamlet with a Zippo lighter, setting the huts on fire. All this was in addition to the aerial bombing of the village with napalm. He stood there in the safari hat he always wore during combat, and announced, 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning!'" [Love that quote. This book would make a great movie!]

Afterwards, Kerry tried to justify his war crimes to the other Swift Boat sailors in the area. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it," he said. We weren't buying it. Kerry didn't file an after-action report, so he managed to avoid being mentioned as part of the incident. Ironically, Lt. William Calley was sentenced to life in prison, but Lt. John Kerry gets to run for president after boasting about his "heroic" war record.

As for Bates, he is still haunted by Kerry's actions and was appalled by the complete hypocrisy of Kerry's shift to the role of peace activist condemning war crimes upon his return. "John Kerry is a moral monster who is possessed by a satanic demon. Indeed, I have no doubt that he is the anti-Christ himself," the devout Bates concludes. [Cut Christian fundamentalist stuff. Could hurt East Coast sales.]

VIETNAM: TRY-OUT FOR TREASON

Bates and the other Swifties were equally galled by Kerry's insistence on practicing his anti-war speeches while still in uniform. One night, while the rest of his crewmates slept, Kerry stood near the bow, gazing at himself in a hand-held mirror and trying out lines. "How do you ask a man to be the last American to die for misguided policy decisions?" he announced in stentorian tones, according to eyewitness Steve Gardner. Then Kerry tried another variation: "How do you ask a man or woman to be the last person to get killed for errors in judgment?" He continued refining it until nearly dawn. Finally, he got the exact phrasing that later catapulted him into national fame: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

As Gardner says, speaking for all those Swifties who know John Kerry best, "The only mistake we made in Vietnam was letting a self-serving war criminal like John Kerry get away with murder, lie about his war record and betray our armed forces."

As a result, 50,000 Americans lost their lives because of his treachery. [I suggest cutting this. Can we get away with blaming every U.S. death there on John Kerry? We've already said that he is a pathological liar who isn't fit to command and was a Communist stooge. That should be plenty.]


 

SoylentGreen

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2002
4,698
1
0
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars?

Holy crap. I read the thread to this point and refuse to see some stupid little internet f**got type more bullshit when he's afraid of a spider no less enemy fire!

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: SoylentGreen
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars?

Holy crap. I read the thread to this point and refuse to see some stupid little internet f**got type more bullshit when he's afraid of a spider no less enemy fire!


I guess I haven't been paying as much attention as I thought I was. I haven't heard anyone say Kerry ran.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: SoylentGreen
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars?

Holy crap. I read the thread to this point and refuse to see some stupid little internet f**got type more bullshit when he's afraid of a spider no less enemy fire!

It's funny how the right brings that up. If I had an explosion right beside me and I didn't know what the hell happened, I'd give her the throttle too. At least until i could pinpoint the danger and formulate some kind of a plan. No sense in being a sitting duck, I'd rather go down fighting.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
I'm in Indianapolis for two weeks training for a job I will be doing in New Orleans.

I just saw the Swift Boat Vets Ad here.

How lame and sad to see old timer Vets Politicized and used to bash a person and event from so long ago.

I expect better from our soldiers and Vets. Shame on those guys :thumbsdown:
 

FuzzyBee

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2000
5,172
1
81
Originally posted by: Gaard
In case anyone is interested, here's part of the original transcript for "Unfit for Command" w/ editor's remarks...

http://www.washingtonmonthly.c...2004/0410.levine2.html

The Washington Monthly has obtained a memo containing excerpts from the original manuscript of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's book, Unfit for Command, including editor's notes.
To: John O'Neill, author Unfit for Command
From: Chip Regnery IV
Re: double-checking your mss.


Dear John:

In the rush to get your book to press, our president Marjorie Ross has asked me to take over the final edit of Unfit for Command. We're very high on the book's prospects to be a smash bestseller -- and, we hope, affect the presidential race. A personal note: I wasn't born until 1973, so your book was a real education for me on the Vietnam War and the way left-wingers like Kerry have distorted what happened there. I had no idea, for example, that virtually all the so-called "atrocities" in Vietnam were either done by Kerry himself or made up out of whole cloth by Seymour Hersh. What an eye-opener! Of course, I have a few minor questions and comments I'd like you to check, noted in brackets. All in all, you've made an air-tight case against Kerry.

Get back to me as soon as you can on these items, and we'll ship the final galleys to you for proofing. Here are the sections we'd like you to revise or double-check:

JOHN KERRY: CHARLATAN OR WAR CRIMINAL?

John Kerry has built his entire political career on the myth that he is a "war hero." But Sen. John Kerry is no hero, as I and the other Swift Boat veterans who fought alongside him know all too well. He is a liar, a coward, a psychopathic baby-killer -- and should have been executed for treason a long time ago. [Tone it down a bit here, please. We don't want to lose readers at the beginning -- ed.] Instead, he's a candidate for president who claims he deserves to be the commander in chief of the United States. But as someone who has engaged in the most reprehensible conduct in the history of mankind [what about Hitler?], Kerry doesn't deserve to be a petty officer third class, let alone the commander in chief of our great country. He must be stopped by any means necessary [Cut this! Sounds like you're promoting his assassination.] before he betrays our country again just to serve his insane ambition. This lying son of a bitch will stab our country in the back just like he did his fellow Navy men over 30 years ago. [Way too emotional. How about "hypocrite" instead of S.O.B.?]

John Kerry served in Vietnam for only four months. Yet he still managed to hoodwink his commanding officers into giving him three Purple Hearts, which allowed him to flee combat to pursue his goal of selling out America as an anti-war protester. He did it by "gaming" the Navy rules that allow any sailor to claim awards for combat injuries merely by filling out the official "E-Z I WANT A PURPLE HEART" form and sending it in without verification to headquarters. [Is it that easy? Double-check.] In fact, according to most Swift Boat veterans who either served on nearby boats or heard rumors about him from his crewmates, Kerry only had a few minor scratches that he deliberately inflicted on himself. They were not the result of any hostile fire.

Take a look at John Kerry's first Purple Heart he won for a made-up "incident" on Dec. 2, 1968. He says he was patrolling on a "skimmer" boat near Cam Ramh Bay when he was wounded by shrapnel fire while bending down to pick up another gun. In fact, before the so-called "attack," Kerry actually practiced with different weapons the best way to give himself a plausible wound. Here's what we were told by now-Rear Adm. William Schachte, who was not only a crewmate but also Kerry's best man when Kerry married his first wife in 1970 [Are you sure about that part?]:

"In the early-morning darkness, I saw him pick up a pen-knife and scratch his upper arm with it a few times. He was cackling to himself, and I'll never forget it. After that, he got a gun, placed the muzzle against his arm, but he couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger. Finally, he bent down and picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and kept it close to his arm while he turned his head away from the weapon, grimaced and fired away. Finally, he got the shrapnel wound he always wanted. It still didn't amount to much." [Great stuff! Any back-up evidence?]

Kerry then demanded that the boat rush to a sickbay miles away so he could be "treated." The sole attending physician was Dr. Louis Letson. Already an expert on wounds, Dr. Letson told us, he would years later win the Nobel Prize for Medicine for his discovery of the cellular mechanisms underlying infections. [You verified his award? Reminder: please Google your interview subjects! We don't have a fact-checking staff anymore.] Letson vividly recalled that when Kerry appeared at the sickbay, the doctor asked him, "Why are you here?" in surprise, observing Kerry's unimpressive scratch. "I've been wounded in hostile fire, and if I'm ever going to be president of the United States, I must win a Purple Heart!" Kerry pleaded. Dr. Letson was shocked by Kerry's naked ambition, but treated him anyway. Using a nuclear microscope, Letson said, he finally spotted the subatomic sliver of shrapnel and removed it with a tweezer.

While other sailors and soldiers lost their lives and limbs in 'Nam, and George W. Bush trained for years in the Air National Guard to protect our country, John Kerry got a quick ride home by concocting his Purple Heart "wounds."

JOHN KERRY: MASS MURDERER

John Kerry burst on the national stage with an appalling attack on his fellow soldiers in 1971 before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He compared all of us who served in Vietnam to Genghis Khan, raping and killing civilians. Yet if anyone was guilty of such behavior, it was Kerry himself. Numerous Coastal Division 11 Swiftees recall his bloodthirsty hunger to kill civilians. Swift Boat veteran Bill Franke, a Silver Star winner, remembers seeing Kerry at the helm of his boat, PCF 21, speeding up and down the Cua Lon River, hunting for any Vietnamese to kill. Franke says:

"His motto was 'The more kills, the more medals for me.' I was shocked. Even during daytime patrols, Kerry routinely attacked sampans with fishermen on them who were just dangling their poles in the water. Then he ordered his men to kill everyone on the boats, women and babies included. Afterwards, acting more like a pirate than a naval officer, he led his crew in raiding the boats to steal anything of value on board, mostly fish. Then he ordered his cook to prepare his favorite French gourmet fish dishes from his Swiss boarding school days, such as Filet de Poisson aux Pommes. His crew always ate well after a massacre."

But waterway kills weren't enough to satisfy Kerry's blood-lust. Once, early in his 1968 tour of duty, he saw smoke rising from a small village called My Lai. [He was there? Please double-check My Lai massacre date with Kerry's timeline in Vietnam.] He disembarked, and while Swifties in other boats looked on in horror, he waded into the jungle to join the carnage. [Check: How far inland from the river was My Lai?]

As George Bates, an officer in Coastal Division 11, remembers it:

"Those Marines were on some kind of search and destroy mission that had gotten out of control. They were bayonetting old men, shooting old women and children, it was horrible. But Kerry, always the brown-noser, saw a chance to make up another combat medal for himself. 'Hey, let me help!' Kerry shouted, and eagerly joined in. He warmed up by killing numerous small animals with heavy machine-gun fire. He then moved on to shooting little children and throwing their bodies in a ditch. Finally, he ran around the hamlet with a Zippo lighter, setting the huts on fire. All this was in addition to the aerial bombing of the village with napalm. He stood there in the safari hat he always wore during combat, and announced, 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning!'" [Love that quote. This book would make a great movie!]

Afterwards, Kerry tried to justify his war crimes to the other Swift Boat sailors in the area. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it," he said. We weren't buying it. Kerry didn't file an after-action report, so he managed to avoid being mentioned as part of the incident. Ironically, Lt. William Calley was sentenced to life in prison, but Lt. John Kerry gets to run for president after boasting about his "heroic" war record.

As for Bates, he is still haunted by Kerry's actions and was appalled by the complete hypocrisy of Kerry's shift to the role of peace activist condemning war crimes upon his return. "John Kerry is a moral monster who is possessed by a satanic demon. Indeed, I have no doubt that he is the anti-Christ himself," the devout Bates concludes. [Cut Christian fundamentalist stuff. Could hurt East Coast sales.]

VIETNAM: TRY-OUT FOR TREASON

Bates and the other Swifties were equally galled by Kerry's insistence on practicing his anti-war speeches while still in uniform. One night, while the rest of his crewmates slept, Kerry stood near the bow, gazing at himself in a hand-held mirror and trying out lines. "How do you ask a man to be the last American to die for misguided policy decisions?" he announced in stentorian tones, according to eyewitness Steve Gardner. Then Kerry tried another variation: "How do you ask a man or woman to be the last person to get killed for errors in judgment?" He continued refining it until nearly dawn. Finally, he got the exact phrasing that later catapulted him into national fame: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

As Gardner says, speaking for all those Swifties who know John Kerry best, "The only mistake we made in Vietnam was letting a self-serving war criminal like John Kerry get away with murder, lie about his war record and betray our armed forces."

As a result, 50,000 Americans lost their lives because of his treachery. [I suggest cutting this. Can we get away with blaming every U.S. death there on John Kerry? We've already said that he is a pathological liar who isn't fit to command and was a Communist stooge. That should be plenty.]

I think you conveniently left off one of the lines:

Yes, this was a parody.
 
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