Harvey, it's people like that that make me ill to think they have an equal vote to me. <shiver>
Originally posted by: Harvey
They already told "their story." What else would you call their book? :roll:Originally posted by: robbase29a
Oh and one more thing.... The swifboat veterans against kerry should be able to tell their part of the story. Especially if the liberal interest groups are allowed to tell theirs. No more double standard. It's called the freedom of speech.
All of their allegations have also been totally discredited by multiple credible sources. That leaves two options:
1. They can change their stories, further shredding their credibility.
2. They can STFU because it's clear they have nothing truthful to say.
The Not So Swifties are malicious liars. Get over it. :|
Simple. A law suit would take months, if not years, to get to court. By then, the election would be over, and it would be a moot point as far as the effects on the election are concerned.Originally posted by: robbase29a
Ok... so if the swifties are lying.. why hasn't anybody filed a law suit against them for this slander? Let me give you a hint... there may be more truth to what they're saying than you think. Edwards is a trial lawyer... they could even save money by taking them to court.
Because if they knowingly continued to air false ads, they would still be liable for money damages for libel, even after the election. Remember, truth is a 100% defense against libel and slander. If the allegations in the ads are true, those running them would have nothing to worry about. If they have already been proven false, they would have plenty to worry about, but the damage to would already have been done to the electoral process, itself.Why did the Kerry campaign freak out and send lawyers to the different TV and radio stations threatening them not to air the swift ads?.. then not follow suit and do something about it when they failed?
Now, you have something to prove. Kerry's military record is public. Many investigators from many credible news organizations have already disproven the swifties lies. If want to make an allegation that is contrary to the offical records for the last 30+ years, the burdon is on you to prove it, not the other way around.And before you get me wrong... I do not think that everything the swifties are saying is true!!! But why can't Kerry come out and set the record straight once and for all? Because he can't ... and he will not release his records in their entirety. I'd say that the swiftvets have a pretty strong case on their hands.
How dense are you? How many times do I have to repeat the same statement for you to understand?Originally posted by: robbase29a
Still... no lawsuit. If they are lying, why don't you take them to court... you're the one that is saying that you have all of the evidence... would yours really hold up in the court?
Originally posted by: Harvey
How dense are you? How many times do I have to repeat the same statement for you to understand?Originally posted by: robbase29a
Still... no lawsuit. If they are lying, why don't you take them to court... you're the one that is saying that you have all of the evidence... would yours really hold up in the court?
1. A lawsuit against the Swift Boat LIARS could not be brought to court in time to undo the damage caused by their lies. It would be meaningless.
2. All the military records support Kerry's story. All of those who were actually WITH him support his story. I have no idea what other records you want to see, but if you think they exist, either produce them, or STFU.
Have you been to law school? I completed one year, and I know something about basic tort law. As a matter of law, if you make damaging allegations about someone, the burden of proof is on you to prove them.
I assume from your failure to produce any such evidence, you don't have any. Same conclusion. Either put up, or STFU!. :frown:
I prefer to call it "direct."Originally posted by: robbase29a
First of all... i'd like to say that you are very rude.
It's from the ancient Acronymian, and translated, it means, if you can't prove what you are saying, you probabaly shouldn't be saying much, at all.What kind of argument is STFU?
Loyola Law School. Los Angeles, Ca. 1966. One year was all I did. I got the complete introduction to torts, contract law, criminal law, and very important, how to use a law library. I also learned something else; I didn't want to be an attorney.Law school?.. .ha! maybe pre-school.
And this is back to square one...A Law suit would NOT be meaningless!. If the swiftboat vets are lying... then YOU prove it.
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was in nam, If I had come clost to Kerry and he did what he said he did I would have arrested him or shot him, But the facts are the man was lying
You, and all U.S. troops, and all U.S. citizens, were betrayed by our own government who lied to you, and the entire nation, about why we were in Vietnam, starting with the lies about what happened in the Tonkin Gulf and continuing the entire time we were there.Originally posted by: DoubleL
When he came back it was something to be ashamed of and he had to speak out on his and others crimes, Now he wants to be a hero, Doesn't work that way, I was in nam, If I had come clost to Kerry and he did what he said he did I would have arrested him or shot him,...
Originally posted by: robbase29a
Here's the link. Oh and one more thing.... The swifboat veterans against kerry should be able to tell their part of the story. Especially if the liberal interest groups are allowed to tell theirs. No more double standard. It's called the freedom of speech.
Two former Vietnam POWs, Ken Cordier and Paul Galanti have recently testified with the Swift boat group that their treatment was affected by John Kerry's testimony to the Senate in 1971. They also omitted to say 150 other veterans testified.
I happened to be Cordier's cell mate, in a 40-man cell, from 1970 to 1972. Galanti lived in a nearby cell and we were also in frequent contact through covert communication. We had absolutely no knowledge of John Kerry during those years. And our treatment during those years did not include torture and harassment.
I and others experienced the abusive treatment from 1965 until September 1969 when Ho Chi Minh died. After his death, pragmatists took over the then North Vietnamese government. They realized we were more valuable as political pawns if we were kept alive and healthy so our treatment changed dramatically during those last years.
It is painful, but morally right for me to testify that Cordier and Galanti are not telling the truth. Unfortunately their right-wing ideology has overcome their sense of honor, fairness and decency.
Phillip Butler, Ph.D.
Vietnam POW April 20, 1965 to Feb. 12, 1973, Monterey resident
My Purple Heart.
Just like I have remained silent for the most part for several months now. I, like Bill Rood (Officer in charge PCF 23), feel it is time to speak out.
It was not long ago that when someone asked me where I served in Vietnam and I told him or her, ?Swift Boats?, their reply was, ?What is a Swift Boat?. They don?t ask that question anymore.
For your information my name is Joe Muharsky. I was a Petty Officer 2nd Class United States Navy serving as ?Forward Machine Gunner? aboard PCF (Swift Boat) 94 in Coastal Division 11, Anthoi Vietnam, Jan-April 1969.
Just to set the record straight, I was not part of Senator Kerry?s crew. We shared the 94 boat, but in reality, we took whatever boat was not in for repairs on any given day.
Did I know Senator Kerry in Vietnam? I knew who he was but did not know him personally. I have met and talked to him more than once sense Vietnam.
I have tried to remain ?Fair? through all the negative publicity by the ?Swift Boat Veterans For Truth?. I will continue to do so in this statement? Many of those men are my friends.
At ?The Swift Boat Sailors Association? reunion in 2003 I met with retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann. As a matter of fact, my wife and I carried his and his wife?s luggage to their room for them. I found The Admiral and his wife to be very gracious and good people. His wife invited us into their room to sit down and chat. We knew they were busy so I suggested we meet latter after they put their things away. I had several conversations with Admiral Hoffmann at our reunion. We did not discuss politics or Senator Kerry.
This was not my first meeting with Admiral Hoffman. He and I did discuss our first meeting. It was March 8, 1969 on a dark and moonless night in the Cu Lon River. We had beached PCF 38, PCF 9, and PCF 5 (We took the 5 boat that day). We had to beach the boats because PCF 38 was sinking. PCF 5 and 9 were hit many times. Admiral Hoffman was on board PCF 38. I helped him pull the Gunners Mate, who had been manning the ?Twin 50?s, out of the gun tub so morphine and plasma could be administered. He was missing a large part of his foot. Some times in an event like that people tend to remember some of the little things. I remember when I went over to PCF 38 to help I only had one shoelace. That?s because I used the other one as a tourniquet for Petty Officer Poole who was serving as Engineman on PCF 5 that night. An AK47 round had torn an artery in his leg. The Green Beret Sergeant that was aboard had already did the best he could to wrap Petty Officer Pool?s face with bandages. Half of it was missing. Petty officer Poole only had three days left in country and was waiting to go home. We had to take him along because my good friend and crewmember EN3 Barry Bogart was wounded the day before. Barry and I still talk often. Barry does not support Senator Kerry but that has never hindered our friendship and our bond.
It is a bit long to post here but I wrote my wife a true story called ?Flag Day? on March 5, 1999. It is a story of ?Tragedy, Triumph and Love. Here is the opening paragraph to that story.
?Today is March 5, 1999. As this week has gone bye my thoughts have not been able to turn from a day 30 years ago, March 8, 1969. It was a day in my life that I have tried to forget but as the years have passed the memories do not. On that day 30 years ago I took a fast boat in harms way and the memories have forever changed the way I view life. The story that I tell you today are the reflections of a 51-year-old Veteran who did his duty based upon what he thought was right at the time. I do so not with the braggadocio of my younger years but as a testament to the love I share with an incredible woman who I met on a cold day in 1963.?
In this story you will find 14 pages describing the events of that fateful night of March 8, 1969. If you are an emotional person, I would suggest you have a box of Kleenex ready before reading.
You will find my web site is non-political. I wrote it long before this election and dedicated it to the 52 Swift Boat Sailors who have their names etched in a black Granite wall in Washington D.C. I decided to leave it that way out of respect for those men
My Webpage
One of the men on the ?Swift Boat Veterans For Truth? TV ad was Joe Ponder. Joe is my friend also. I spent quite a bit of time talking with Joe in 2003 also. Again we did not discuss politics. When I walked with Joe we could not move very fast and we could not go very far before he had to sit down. Joe is still on crutches from the 50-caliber bullet that took off one of his knees. I have pictures Joe sent me of lifting Joe out of his Gun Tub with his knee shot off. He has asked me never to share them with anyone. I will not. When Joe was riding in the medivac chopper without a knee he related to me that he did not feel so bad because on the stretcher next to Joe was my friend, LTJG Harwood, screaming for the medics to put his leg back on. LTJG Harwood did not complete his one-year tour of duty on a Swift Boat either. He was only in country for a short time (less than Senator Kerry). I am happy to report that I made contact with LTJG Harwood on Veterans Day of last year. He is an orthopedic surgeon in San Diego.
Will I condemn Admiral Hoffmann and Joe Ponder? No I will not but I will say that what they are doing is wrong. What they are saying does not agree with official Navy Documents and some of Admiral Hoffman?s own statements.
I have watched the ads. They quote Senator Kerry stating ?personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."
You might have noticed, as I did, ? (Three dots in front of a sentence). What was left out of Senator Kerry?s Testimony in their ad was, ?They told stories that at times they had?. Senator Kerry was testifying to what other vets told him, not to what he had done. I am sure that part of the sentence was not important to Carl Rowe but it is important to me and it should be important to all voters.
I have agonized for many months now to speak about this. The Swift Boat Sailors For Truth have stated that they never saw any Atrocities. Again I refer you to my story ?Flag Day?.
This is an excerpt from it???.
We proceeded the rest of the way south on the Cai Nap canal to the Cua Lon and returned to the Coast Guard Cutter that?s was waiting off shore to put us up for the night. I believe it was the Minitonka but can't be sure after 30 years. Somewhere along the way that day we had captured two suspected VC prisoners. Again my memory fails me as to where and how we captured them. I do however remember that one was a male in his 20's and the other was an old mamason that looked to be about 60 years old. Neither of them had any papers so we took them along for the ride.
We spent the night on the cutter. Before turning in for the night I decided with many others including some of the crew of the Coast Guard Cutter to watch the Green Berets interrogate our young VC prisoner. He didn?t seem too responsive to their questions so they gave him a little encouragement to talk. They hooked a blasting cap detonator to his ears, dumped a bucket of water on him for greater conductivity and shot what I remembered to be 60 volts and 2 1/2 amps directly through his head. His body shot up in the air and then shuddered and he went limp and fell to the deck each time they did this. As I look back on it now I am saddened by the fact that I had no feeling for him at the time. I guess I had taught myself how not to feel. With a casualty rate now over 80% in our unit I think it hurt too much to feel so we just numbed out. At the time it was just another event to me. As I look back at it now I am not proud of that but I am not ashamed of it either. That?s what war does to young men and until the leaders of this world learn to settle their differences in a peaceful manner, that?s the way it?s going to be. The poor bastard just got caught in the middle. If he didn?t sympathize with the Viet Cong they would kill him and if he did, we would kill him. I try now to put my self in his shoes and wonder what I might have done to feed and protect my family. I never thought of that when I was 19 years old. My emotions were also tempered by the fact that if his comrades had captured me a much worse fate was in store.
If you do choose to read the whole story ?Flag Day?, you will note that we laid waste to a village in the Cai Nap canal that day. I just happen to still have the picture I took while we were doing this. You can view it for yourself here if you like.
Cai Nap Canal
I would like to point out that I had no problem with what happened at the time, I have no problem with it today and I will have no in the future. When people view Swift Boat Sailors on the news today (Whether for or against Senator Kerry) they see 60 year old mature men. We were just a bunch of kids trying to stay alive. I was 20, my engineman was 17. When we went on these raids we did not fight for Liberty, Honor, or Justice. We fought for the man next to us and the man next to him. The fact is though, things that Senator Kerry testified to did happen.
Why dont you try typing "OPERATION PHOENIX" into your search engine and see what you find?
I have some documents here that have been declassified.
They are ?Coastal Division Eleven Command History Chronology of Highlights.?
I will start with the day Senator Kerry Received his Bronze Star. LT Larry Thurlow of ?The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? stated that, ?There was no enemy fire.?
Here is what the official Navy Document said???..
________________________________________________________
March 13, 1969
?PCFs 3, 51, 43, 93 and 94 with KSP RF/PF troops conducted SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap River and Dong Cung Canal. A mine detonated under PCF 3 and units were taken under small arms fire several times during the operation. Friendly casualties were 8 USN WIA, 1 KSP KIA. Unites destroyed 30 sampans and 5 structures and captured 16 booby trap grenades. Later intelligence reports indicated 1 VC KIA and 5 VC WIA.?
Who is telling the truth, Mr. Thurlow or the Navy?
I do not have room here to post all of the reports for Jan-March 1969. Here are a few highlights.
Jan 23. ?14 structures destroyed and damage to several others.
Jan 24, ?9 structures destroyed.?
Jan 25 ?91 sampans, 63 structures, 2 bridges destroyed.
What do you people think ?Structures? means. A brick building with a parking lot that says ?VC Headquarters? on it? These were people?s homes folks. Were some of them occupied by the VC? Yes they were. Did everyday people trying to make a living occupy most of them? Right again. If your neighbor shoots a policeman, would it be OK with you if the police burn down your village? Was this the correct procedure for winning the hearts and minds of the people? And you wonder why we lost the war?
I looked in disgust as I saw women with a smile on their face wearing a ?Band aid with a purple heart? at the republican convention. Many Sailors who served on Swift Boats took a piece of shrapnel in a leg or an arm including my dear friend and crewmember, Barry Bogart. Do you dishonor him also or only the ones you do not like. If that same piece of shrapnel would have hit Senator Kerry in the eye I guess it would be OK with you then right. How bad did a man have to be wounded for you ladies to decide if a Purple Heart band-aid was what they should be awarded?
It is too bad you ladies could not be along for a Swift Boat ride with me on March 8, 1969. You would not even have to get hurt. Just witness the events. I had one lady just read about it and said she couldn?t talk. You can read it here if you like.
A day in the life of a Swift Boat Sailor
Come along for the ride, live it, feel it. We will let you decide then who amongst us deserves your band-aid. The driver of the 38 boat, Greg Cybulski? He only took a piece of shrapnel in his ass. Perhaps the gunners mate on the 38 boat? He was missing a foot. Will he meet your tough standards? Maybe you could put one on Petty officer Poole?s face. It would have to go on the left side of his face though. The right side was missing.
There were many people hit on that raid so you would have a lot to choose from. I was not one of them. I never received a purple heart but I do have one now. I do not wear it on my chest though and I cannot remove it. It is inside of me. My heart aches at what people like you and others who, have no clue, have done to shame our veterans. We have 1000 dead and over 7000 wounded in Iraq now. Are you concerned about them? Are you going to wear your Band-Aids for some of them also? If they run for president in 20034 and they do not meet your criteria for a Purple Heart will you condemn them also?
How many of you have been to a VA hospital lately to hold an 80-year-old World War II vet in your arms and tell him "I appreciate what you did". How about a 65-year-old Korean vet? They are easy to spot. Just look for the ones missing fingers and toes from frostbite. 'Nam vets are easy to pick out in the crowd also. They are around 50 some years old now and some are missing a limb or two from the extensive use of booby traps by the Viet Cong. These veterans are getting new roommates every day now from the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of them do not have a scratch. Their wounds are in their minds from what they saw and endured and they will spend the rest of their lives in that hospital. I know they must qualify for your ?band aid award?.
There are POW/MIA ceremonies in this country on a regular basis. When is the last time you attended one? I seem to recall that I never had to go early to make sure I got a seat. There are now over 86,000 MIAs sense 1941. Do you support those troops also , or only the ones that are currently at war? Do any of them warrant one of your band-aids?
In 1991 after the first Gulf War, I attended a ceremony to Award a Purple Heart and a South West Asia campaign medal to Private Timothy Allen Shaw from my home area. Timothy was not with us for the presentation. He had been laid to rest in Arlington National Cemetery. There were only 7 people in attendance and four were his family. The others were Vietnam Vets.
When I returned home from the ceremony that day, I opened a drawer and got out a small leather bound case that says United States of America on it. As I thought of Timothy, I tried to ponder the true meaning of its contents. In the case were six medals and four citations awarded to me for service in Vietnam. I am proud of my service to my country, as was Timothy, but I've found as I grow older, the medals have taken on a new meaning.
I picked up the one with the Bronze "V" on it, for valor in combat, and wondered who's son I may have killed to receive such an award? Was there a Rev. and Mrs. Shaw somewhere in Vietnam who received a Purple Heart for the same battle, and if so, what meaning would my Cross of Gallantry have to his mother? I held my Presidential Unit Citation in my hand and tried to justify its true meaning, for the man that was President when I received it had to resign in disgrace.
And lastly, I wondered what the medal must be like that was awarded to the Iraqi soldier who launched the Scud that killed PFC Timothy Alan Shaw and 27 other Americans? Was there a parade? Was it presented by a politician? Surely it must have a "V" on it for valor. Unfortunately I have only the questions, not the answers.
I am sure you take issue with the fact that Senator Kerry only served four months on a Swift Boat. Here is another post I made on Senator Kerry?s Internet Town Forum. Here you will find links to web pages of 52 other Swift Boat sailors that did not complete their 1-year tour of duty either. I talk with them every night.
Only 4 months?
Take the time to search all of my posts there if you like. You will not find a negative comment from me about President Bush. I choose to promote my candidate, not put down yours.
What are you doing to support your country? After September 11, 1991, I joined the United States Coast Guard Auxiliary and became a Coxswain in command of Coast Guard auxiliary boats. My wife joined also and became one of my crewmembers. I still work for a living but I have donated over 300 hours of my time including 102 hours in the last 15 days to serving my country. In those last 15 days I have completed 8 Search and Rescue missions and helped save 8 lives.
One of them was a young boy of 16. He had less than 60 seconds to live when my crew pulled him from the water. He was screaming for help and had gone under 3 times. The United States Coast Guard has recommended our crew for a Medal. That one will not get tucked away in the drawer with the others. Thirty-five years ago, I sadly became good a taking life. It was much more gratifying to save a life. Once again I was proud to be serving my country.
I really do not care what you ?Band Aid? people think of me. I am content with who I am.
Some years ago I was speaking to a group of graduate students in psychology at Cleveland State University, telling them about ?Swift Boat? duty.
After listening to my story, a young man asked me the question; ?Do you think you can ever love again?? I?m quite sure he thought I wasn?t ready for that question but as it turned out, he wasn?t quite ready for my answer. This was my reply.
?I told that young man that he had no idea what love was. I said, ?Unlike you son, most Veterans do not put conditions on love?. If there was one thing that war taught me it was the true meaning of love. I can love you for who you are son, not who I might want you to be. Another learned from war is that when men go into combat together, they might not like each other but they do love each other.
It doesn?t matter whether you are black or white, northern or southern. You know that when the going gets tough that he will do what is necessary to save your life even if it means he might lose his and you will do the same for him. They love each other out of necessity because they know that if they don?t, none will survive.
If I didn?t learn anything else from war son I truly did learn how to love. I can walk into a forest and sit next to a tree and observe all of nature?s wonders for I have seen Napalm burn the jungle. I can love a child?s laugh because I have heard their screams. I can love the freedom you have today to go out into the world and choose what you want to do because when I was your age I was deprived of my freedom, my youth, and my innocence, while I was supposed to be making this a better world for you to live in. I do feel I have played a small part in making this a better world for you to live in, not because I have fought and killed but because I cried out in anger and told you the horror and reality of warfare. I was asked to fight a war where victory was unattainable and defeat was unacceptable and yet now one could tell us how it happened. I pray to God that none of you ever have to rest your head on a pillow at night and try to sleep with the memories that the men carry with them that landed at Omaha beach, Inchon or the Ashau Valley. But I want you to realize that they are why you have the freedom to listen to me.
As I stated before many of ?The Swift Boat Veterans? for truth are my friends and when we went into battle they were Senator Kerry friends also. They had nothing but praise for him 35 years ago. Do you think politics plays a part 35 years latter?
When Clark Clifford took over as Secretary of Defence during the Vietnam War, he gathered the Joint Chief?s of Staff together and asked them, what is your plan for winning this war. Not one of them had an answer for him. Senator Kerry announced a plan two days ago for Iraq. He was accused of flip-flopping. With respect for my Commander in Chief, I would like to ask what your plan is to bring our troops home Mr. President.
When Senator Kerry testified in 1971 Vietnam had been going on for 10 years. We had 40,000 dead and no one had a plan to win. Sometimes I think that many people would be happy if we were still fighting there and had 200,000 dead just so they could say ?We Won.? Can anyone tell me what the Iraq memorial will look like in Washington and how many names will be on it? Each time I view the Vietnam Memorial I wonder what might have been. Is the name of the first man to set foot on Mars etched there. Maybe the woman who found the cure for cancer?
If you make your decision who to vote for on what Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hannity, Michael Moore or Whoopie Goldberg has to say I think it is a sad day for our country and for you.
Why don?t you do some research instead on who voted for what. Look up exactly what was in that bill that was voted on. The left, or the right, are only going to give you the part that benefits them.
Check your ?Tax Cut? and see how much it saved you. Add in the new State taxes, sales taxes, school taxes, health care costs and see what the bottom line is. Do you have more money to spend? I don?t.
I commend President Bush for invading Afghastin and removing the Taliban. I do not feel the same way about Iraq. How many of you knew that in 1967 (My first tour in Vietnam( the United states had Saddam Husien in this country giving him a tour of our Chemical weapons plants?
In closing I would like to say that many of ?The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? belong to ?The Swift Boat Sailors Association? also. One has nothing to do with the other so please do not confuse them.
One of the ?Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? is Jim Zumwalt. He is also a friend of mine. His father, Admiral Zumwalt was the chief of Naval operations in Vietnam and personally pinned John Kerry?s Silver Star on his chest. The Swift boat Sailors Association created an award in 2003. It is called ?The Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt Jr. Humanitarian Award?. The first ever award was to be presented to the Swift Boat Sailor they felt was the most deserving of it at our last reunion.
I can tell you that unlike my medals, it is not tucked away in someone?s drawer. It hangs in a ?Place of Honor? in my home. It was awarded to me.
Sincerely
Moderator16
Joe Muharsky
RD2, United States Navy Black Berets Vietnam
Forward Machine Gunner, PCF 78, DaNang, 1968
Forward Machine Gunner, PCF 94, An Thoi, 1969
U.S.S. Brister, Destroyer Escort #327, Vietnam, 1967
Operation Market Time, Operation Seal Lords, Operation Phoenix
Coxswain, United States Coast Guard Auxiliary, 2002
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
<BR>The whole Anti War movement demoralized them. The funny thing is without the Anti War Movement most of them would have spent many more years in those camps than they did! Sometimes the truth is Demoralizing, especially the truth about Viet Nam!Originally posted by: Riprorin<BR>Next up: POWs blast Kerry in TV documentary<BR>Blah..blah..blah..
In actuality, the war crimes to which Kerry referred did indeed occur virtually on a daily basis. The Free-Fire-Zones were one such violation, resulting in literally thousands of civilian deaths. The carpet-bombing of civilian areas to "break the will" of the NVA supporters was another frequent occurance. Harassment and interdiction fire were also used in violation of international law and Geneva Conventions. Not only were these events frequent, but they became unwritten policy - and most of the soldiers were completely unaware they were committing criminal actions, as they were just following orders. Even John O'Neill admitted, on national television (the Dick Cavett Show debate between Kerry and O'neill), that he too participated in war crimes in Vietnam.o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.
Your "facts" are incorrect. Military personnel were warned that "if you disobey an order, you can be tried and punished." They were ordered to drop those bombs. They were ordered to consider anything moving between points 'A' and 'B' to be a hostile target, and to fire at will. They were ordered to burn crops and level villages lest they be used by the Viet Cong. In certain areas, whole communities were relocated, and the wells and rice paddies poisoned, so the Viet Cong couldn't re-supply there. You can argue these steps were necessary parts of war because of the nature of the battle we were fighting - and I wouldn't argue with you. But you most certainly can not argue that all of these actions were indeed criminal violations of Geneva Conventions and international law.o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.
Aren't numbers and percentages wonderful things? With a modicum of skill and juggling, you can make the numbers represent anything you want. The factual bottom line is, by official military records, that blacks did indeed provide the highest percentage of casualties during the Vietnam conflict. The disparity was so significant that it forced military policy changes. The small "window" of time that Burkett uses, exerpted from the total 1965-1973 casualty figures, surely shows whatever he wishes it to show, I have no doubt.o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." Research published in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor" and other sources shows that casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched the proportion of America's overall population represented by each race.
Take another look at that paragraph. You have refuted none of Kerry's assertions. Based on average extrapolation throughout the duration of the war, 200,000 Vietnamese were indeed dying per year. Deaths that would cease with our withdrawal. You might also want to look at the Apples -vs- Oranges comparison Lewy is really making in that statement. Those triple-dots (...) can come back to bite you in the arse if yer not careful.o Kerry claimed that Vietnam was "ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism..." Later in his remarks, Kerry responded to a question about what might happen to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal with "So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America..." Yet according to historian Guenter Lewy in "America in Vietnam," "...the number of civilians killed deliberately by the VC is appallingly high. No counterpart to this death toll caused by communist terror tactics exists on the allied side."
Basically true ('cept the part about when Kerry 'joined' the VVAW). Kerry attended the Paris Peace Talks, along with many other observers, and spoke with representatives from all concerned sides. The special Senate Committee before which Kerry appeared was convened specifically to discuss how the United States could best extract itself from the Vietnam conflict.o Asked for a recommendation about possible courses of action for Congress to pursue, Kerry stated that he had talked with representatives from Hanoi and from the PRG (Viet Cong) at the Paris peace talks, and mentioned his support for "Madam Binh's points." Madam Nguyen Thi Binh was at that time the Foreign Minister for the PRG. These meetings took place in the spring of 1970, before Kerry ever joined the VVAW.
What is it with Neocons and their great desire to quote just a few words out of a sentence, while leaving the rest of the context unmentioned? Tsk. Yes, the VVAW did indeed hold it's "Guerilla Theater" skits in public, using professional actors - to dramatize the "hell of war." The fliers you mention were from their Valley Forge Rally, at which Kerry and several anti-war activists gave speeches. (Sorry - Kerry was merely a spokesman during this event.) Here is the actual flyer...o Kerry was a leader, fund-raiser, and spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), an organization that staged mock mass murders of civilians to dramatize American atrocities, and handed out flyers that read "if you had been Vietnamese" American infantrymen might have "burned your house" or "raped your wife and daughter" and "American soldiers do these things every day to the Vietnamese simply because they are 'Gooks.'"
Flat out wrong. Not a single witness that testified at the Winter Soldier Investigation has been discredited. Lewy and Burkett have tried their best to imply as much, but have failed. The name, ranks and testimony of all participants are part of the congressional record. You'll note that while history revisionists like Burkett, and Vietnam apologists like Lewy are quick to try to defame all aspects of the Anti-War contingent, they fail when it comes to the Winter Soldier Investigation. Of course there were imposters and frauds and scammers during the Vietnam Era, and Burkett and Lewy cite many of them - yet not one was a participant in Winter Soldier.o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.
"The deception extended...?" In fact, this is the only deception Nixon's plumbers and the FBI could come up with at all. Al Hubbard exaggerated his rank because, as he stated, he didn't think anyone would take an enlisted black man seriously. He was, however, a pilot - and did indeed run cargo missions to Vietnam. Antiwar-bashers are quick to point to Hubbard and exclaim, "See?! You can't trust the VVAW!" They fail to point out that Hubbard never testified at the Winter Soldier Investigation.o The deception extended to the VVAW leadership. Executive secretary Al Hubbard claimed to have been an Air Force captain wounded piloting a transport over Da Nang in 1966. Hubbard was actually a staff sergeant who was never assigned to Vietnam.
The Winter Soldier Investigation was financed in part by Fonda, and by donations from the VVAW membership. Lane did not contribute to this project. Your (or rather, the propagandists at wintersoldier.com) assertion about Fonda's hopes are somewhat self-defeating. The WSI showed the American government as guilty of bad policy, rather than show the soldiers as mass murders. Loss of support for the war was a by-product of becoming educated about the realities of that war. As for the POW that "stated Kerry's testimony was used by North Vietnam to demoralize American prisoners," did he do so 35 years after the fact, I wonder? May we have his name please? It is a well known fact that many of our POWs suffered torture at the hands of the NVA between 1965-1970. It is equally well known that 98% of all torture of POWs ceased by 1971, primarily as a result of the Peace Talks and Nixon exposing the Vietnamese human rights abuses. Kerrys speech wasn't given until well into 1971. It is usually Jane Fonda that takes the scorn for anti-war propaganda, but Kerry is conveniently included during election seasons.o The Winter Soldier Investigation was financed by pro-Hanoi radicals such as Jane Fonda and Mark Lane, who hoped to undermine American support for the war by framing American soldiers as mass murderers. At the same time, the North Vietnamese military was torturing American prisoners of war to make them confess to identical crimes. At least one former POW has stated that Kerry's testimony was used by North Vietnam to demoralize American prisoners during interrogations.
You forgot to mention that both Kerry and Fonda gave speeches at the Valley Forge Rally. Still, Kerry and Fonda never associated, and never talked with each other. In 1970, Fonda was merely another celebrity anti-war activist. She wouldn't make her infamous Hanoi trip for a couple years still. Kerry was just one of thousands of veterans also protesting the war, albeit more wellspoken than most. You also conveniently forget to mention that Kerry was against what Fonda did in 1972 - and spoke out against it, just as he does today. Like most of us, Kerry felt she was wrong in what she did.o John Kerry has denied any association with Jane Fonda, but he attended the 1970 VVAW leadership meeting that chose Fonda and Executive Secretary Al Hubbard to do a national speaking tour to raise money for the VVAW and launch new chapters. Fonda was also the primary source of funds for the Winter Soldier Investigation, where Kerry was a moderator.
Another pack of twisted, non-related facts and fictions. The VVAW endorsed the People's Peace Treaty. Kerry was still active with VVAW at this time. The VVAW didn't send a delegation to Hanoi. The 'treaty' was a symbolic document between the people of Vietnam and America, enacted with the expatriated Vietnamese students in Canada. It included the concession that America would set a withdrawal date, where upon the Vietnamese would immediately enter discussions on the return of American prisoners. This symbolic treaty was to be forwarded to the respective governments for consideration as a suggested way of ending the war.o The VVAW signed the People's Peace Treaty during Kerry's tenure -- the VVAW even sent a delegation to Hanoi. The document was a laundry list of North Vietnamese bargaining points, including the key concession that the United States must agree to withdraw all troops before any negotiations could take place for the return of American prisoners.
That statement is a pile of unadulterated, right-wing crap. One need only look at the events of the era to determine just what soured the American sentiments against the war, the government and even against the military:o The VVAW was at the heart of the propaganda effort that so effectively smeared American servicemen in Vietnam as murderous, drug-addled psychotics that returning veterans were cursed and spat upon in the streets. In fact, as shown in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor," Vietnam veterans are more psychologically stable and successful than their civilian counterparts.
There was no "conspiracy." Camil made the radical suggestion, and everyone else voted it down. There was nothing for Kerry to inform authorities about, just as there was no action taken by the two FBI informants or by the FBI agents listening to the meeting on wires. Kerry did resign from the VVAW, primarily because the group was becoming more radical - and no, he didn't represent them after that. Kerry did, however, continue to speak out against the war.o The VVAW was a radical and potentially violent organization that formally considered assassinating prominent supporters of the war. As reported in the New York Sun by Thomas Lipscomb, during a November 1971 meeting in Kansas City the VVAW leadership and chapter coordinators voted down a plan to murder several U.S. Senators, including John Tower, John Stennis, and Strom Thurmond. Two VVAW members who were present, Randy Barnes and Terry Du-Bose, place John Kerry at that meeting, as do the meeting minutes and FBI records. Kerry claims to have resigned from the VVAW at the meeting or shortly thereafter, but there is no evidence that he ever informed authorities about the conspiracy. Kerry continued to publicly represent the VVAW until at least April of 1972.
Originally posted by: DoubleL
I would never say something about a nam vet unless I knew without any question it was true