Official Swiftboat Thread

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nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Originally posted by: daveshel
And a lawyer for the Bush campaign has been involved in the smear campaign.

Link

That makes two. So much for clean hands, eh?

Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.

Just wanted to point this out, since it was buried in one sentence, at the bottom of the article.


there may be nothing wrong with it, but then why did the lawyer resign?
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Originally posted by: daveshel
And a lawyer for the Bush campaign has been involved in the smear campaign.

Link

That makes two. So much for clean hands, eh?

Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.

Just wanted to point this out, since it was buried in one sentence, at the bottom of the article.


there may be nothing wrong with it, but then why did the lawyer resign?


Because there are more connections involved and the lawyer wants to distance himself before being directly implicated.
 

villager

Senior member
Oct 17, 2002
373
0
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Was Kerry in Cambodia for Christmas Eve of '68 ?

Well just maybe he was, Operation Daniel Boone put him there
According to ONeill he was there as well:

JOHNS: Behind the scenes, Kerry's aides were fighting the swift boat charges with unusual ferocity. They say they have evidence one of the top members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is an outright liar.

The co-author of the book "Unfit for Command," former swift boat commander John O'Neill said Kerry made up a story about being in Cambodia beyond the legal borders of the Vietnam War in 1968.

O'Neill said no one could cross the border by river and he claimed in an audio tape that his publicist played to CNN that he, himself, had never been to Cambodia either. But in 1971, O'Neill said precisely the opposite to then President Richard Nixon.

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

NIXON: In a swift boat?

O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

link
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Ouch, Och, and Ouch. ALl this Discrediting of "Unfit to be published" is really hurting the credibility of the

Swift boat Veterans who love George Bush, Listen to Rush, Met With Nixon, and HATE those Evil Liberals for the destruction of John Kerry's Campaign because we are Still furious at the Whistleblower, not the actually atrocities and commanders responcible for them.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
This whole swift boat issue just shows that their is no great "Liberal media bias" ala BJ Bill and Monica.

It does prove that the media is bias for scandels, It cant resist them, reguardless how false they may be.

All the more reason to watch PBS and listen to NPR. The Real news for people that can Think.
 

villager

Senior member
Oct 17, 2002
373
0
0
Story
Probably the best column on SBVT yet.
You Can Report, but We Will Decide
The conservative media's handling of the Swift boat dispute is a case study in bias.


You Can Report, but We Will Decide

COMMENTARY

By Ben Wasserstein, Ben Wasserstein is a writer in New York.


Last Thursday, the Washington Post reported that the military records of Larry Thurlow, one of John Kerry's major accusers among the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, contradicted Thurlow's version of events and confirmed Kerry's. At the very least, this cast severe doubt on the charge that Kerry fabricated the events that earned him one of his Vietnam War medals
The conservative media had been pushing the fabrication story energetically. How did it deal with this new evidence undermining it? As it turns out, at almost every turn it soft-pedaled the new evidence or outright ignored it, showing its bias throughout.

On March 13, 1969, Kerry commanded one of five Navy Swift boats in a raid up the Bay Hap River and won a Bronze Star for actions under enemy fire. Thurlow commanded one of the other boats, and he has claimed in constant media rounds that there was no enemy fire. But, as the Post reported, Thurlow also won a Bronze Star that day, and the citation that accompanied it referred to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units."
Thurlow's current story casts doubt on his own Bronze Star as much as Kerry's. Thurlow's explanation is that his citation's record of the events must have been based on Kerry's and that the information must have been provided by Kerry himself. There is an "after-action report" that Thurlow and John E. O'Neill, coauthor of the anti-Kerry book "Unfit for Command," refer to as "Kerry's report" despite the fact that it bears the initials KJW. (Later news stories have pointed out that Thurlow's Bronze Star citation refers to a witness to the enemy fire ? Thurlow's crewmate, Robert Lambert ? and that the KJW initials are also on reports about events Kerry was not involved in.)

No one has so far challenged the Washington Post's facts. Not that you'd know that if you were watching or listening to or reading conservative media outlets. Rupert Murdoch's New York Post ran Thurlow's charge that Kerry lied to get his medal. On Friday, the day after the Washington Post story poked a hole in that contention, the New York Post ran a teeny story focusing only on Kerry's decision to counterattack against a "tough anti-Kerry TV ad." The Wall Street Journal editorial page and its website, OpinionJournal, also said nothing about the new evidence.
The conservative Washington Times did report the Post's Thurlow scoop in a news article. It also ran Part 3 of its series excerpting the book "Unfit for Command," and the excerpt on Friday included Thurlow's contention that there was no hostile fire on March 13, 1969. In his column on Kerry, Washington Times Editor in Chief Wesley Pruden wrote, "The monsieur's friends at The Washington Post attempted to muddy the waters for him yesterday," and then Pruden approvingly restated Thurlow's assertions and his explanation for the discrepancy. An unsigned editorial called on the media to investigate the after-action report.

The leading serious conservative journal, the Weekly Standard, posted a new issue online Friday with a cover story titled "The Kerry Wars." The story cited the Washington Post article and admitted that "the documentary evidence available so far backs Kerry's story," but its paragraph dealing with the accusations that Kerry lied to get his medals concludes that "such claims boil down to Kerry's word versus his opponents'." That ignores the witnesses who back Kerry's story. It also ignores the pesky documentary evidence that supports Kerry's version of events.

On TV and radio, all the action came Thursday. On the Fox News Channel, the afternoon news show, "Studio B With Shepard Smith," offered a three-minute report on the "ongoing spat" over Kerry's military record without mentioning the new evidence about Thurlow's contradictions. The imbroglio over Kerry's Vietnam record led "The Big Story With John Gibson" and, again, not once in the five-minute segment was the Thurlow discrepancy discussed.

Next came Fox's "Special Report With Brit Hume," which opened with the teaser: "And despite Navy records, the dispute goes on about whether Kerry earned one of his medals under fire or not." Addressing the claims in the Washington Post article, there was a pre-taped interview with O'Neill, who asserted that Thurlow's "Bronze Star citation is based on the report that John Kerry wrote." The fact that there is no evidence that Kerry wrote that report was not mentioned. Military analyst Bill Cowan appeared to answer questions like, "If you yourself wrote an after-action report ? would that be taken into consideration?" This discussion of Kerry's alleged report left no time for comment on the controversy over whether Thurlow deserved his Bronze Star and why he waited so long to examine the citation's language.

Later, on the "Fox Report With Shepard Smith," Laurie Dhue introduced a segment about Kerry's reaction to the ads of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The report made no mention of Thurlow or the Post's story. Half an hour into the show, a second Kerry segment mentioned the Post story and summarized it in a fair-minded way. This was the first "fair and balanced" treatment of the story after hours of derision or avoidance on Fox.

John Kasich was guest host of "The O'Reilly Factor" on Thursday, and Thurlow himself phoned in to address the Post's story. To his credit, Kasich hammered Thurlow with questions, making the common-sense point, "You know, if I got a citation that said I saved somebody ? and it wasn't that way, I don't know, maybe I would attempt to correct the record." Thurlow just repeated that there had been no enemy fire and that Kerry had written the report on which the citation was based. He wasn't asked for evidence.

Kasich's next guest, Dick Morris, a former Clinton advisor turned Fox news analyst, explained the Washington Post story this way: "Obviously what's happening is the Democratic Party sent their negative research people on all of these guys that are in the Swift boat ad, trying to discredit them, and then came up with this citation."

There is no evidence that the Post story came out of any Democratic opposition research. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and its ads, by contrast, have been traced to conservative interest groups and funding.

Following "O'Reilly," "Hannity & Colmes" tackled the Thurlow story with O'Neill as their guest (they said the Kerry campaign declined to send a representative). O'Neill said he knew Kerry had prepared the report that the citations were based on "because anybody reading it with practical knowledge would know that" and because other officers such as Thurlow said that Kerry often wrote after-action reports. "There's not a bullet hole in any of those three boats, not one," he said, offering no documentation. (The Los Angeles Times reported Friday that a report on "battle damage" to Thurlow's boat made reference to "three 30 cal bullet holes about super structure.")

Meanwhile, on the radio, Rush Limbaugh offered a master class in turning the Washington Post's story into an indictment of Kerry. In his opening monologue, Limbaugh said that to vote for Kerry, one would "have to accept only what he tells us about his service record." That left out the small matter of the accounts from his crewmates, Kerry's war record and Thurlow's war record.

Later in his monologue, Limbaugh chased down the same byway as the Washington Times, saying that the real issue was whether Kerry had signed the after-action reports and conveniently ignoring that there was zero evidence he had done so: "I think this Post story today is amateur journalism. The fact that Thurlow's citation says this or that is proof of absolutely nothing till we find out who cited it, who actually filled in the blanks."

Ignoring all the evidence in Kerry's favor, Limbaugh later said: "We haven't got any evidence because the Kerry campaign won't come forth and defend any of this." In a speech that day, Kerry directly addressed the charges against him by asking people to look at his record. But Limbaugh repeatedly asserted: "He won't face this. He runs from it," and "he won't answer the charges."

By the end of the program, it seemed as though the revelations about Thurlow gave Limbaugh more confidence in the Swift Vets' account.

"How come it's causing so much angst? ? It's because it's true, probably," Limbaugh said. "We're supposed to believe what [the Kerry campaign says]. Because their attitude is, if we say it, it's true, if the other guys say it, it's a lie, believe us."

That attitude, with its blithe dismissal of opposing evidence, perfectly describes the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and its enablers in the right-wing media. What proof there is supports Kerry, and yet to the right-wing media the burden of proof falls on him.

Thurlow's explanation is accepted readily ? the KJW after-action report becomes "Kerry's report," and the contention that Thurlow's citation is derived from Kerry's self-glorifying lies becomes a given. The member of Thurlow's own crew who served as the eyewitness for Thurlow's citation is not mentioned. Only once, when Thurlow was interviewed on "The O'Reilly Factor," was the unlikelihood of a man not knowing for 35 years exactly why he received a Bronze Star even mentioned.

Perhaps sensing that some truths really are self-evident, on Friday the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth changed tactics from denigrating Kerry's Vietnam record to distorting his antiwar record. According to a Nexis search, Thurlow's name was not uttered all day on the Fox News Channel.
 

J Heartless Slick

Golden Member
Nov 11, 1999
1,330
0
0
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars? because they only saw Kerry run away from combat instead of actually being on the boat that ran away.

Kerry has 45million in this kind of ?soft? money going against bush, the conservatives only have 9 million in cash that bypasses the intent of the law. That the conservatives have found something to truly call Kerry on is what?s making the only real difference in exposure.

Have any of the SBVT accounts turn out to be true?
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Originally posted by: J Heartless Slick
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
If so many veterans who where in the same location say Kerry ran like chicken little when the heat got turned up, then it?s no wonder Kerry is sending out his liberal-internet-wackjobs to over-post about how they are ?liars? because they only saw Kerry run away from combat instead of actually being on the boat that ran away.

Kerry has 45million in this kind of ?soft? money going against bush, the conservatives only have 9 million in cash that bypasses the intent of the law. That the conservatives have found something to truly call Kerry on is what?s making the only real difference in exposure.

Have any of the SBVT accounts turn out to be true?

They were mostly all in vietnam at one point. Thats True
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
even if this is all true, why didn't these guys come foward 30 years ago?

Probably because Kerry wasn't running for President 30 years ago.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: loki8481
even if this is all true, why didn't these guys come foward 30 years ago?

Probably because Kerry wasn't running for President 30 years ago.


So all of them, ALL OF THEM, made the same conscious decision to hold out with this story UNTIL he ran for President. Bwahahahahahahahahaha! That's priceless.

Edit: Oh wait, wait. Maybe they had a Swift Boat meeting on the Rio Grande and together made a hand-and-spit shake agreement all at the same time.

Don't ya think something would've leaked at some point over the last 35 years? Don't ya think it would've come up at some point during his long Senatorial period?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
61
91
In a strange twist of reality, it looks like the shipmates are deserting the sinking rats. :laugh:

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5112.shtml
Two More Swift Boat Vets Say Anti-Kerry Group is Lying

By Staff and Wire Reports
Aug 25, 2004, 11:16

Two of John Kerry?s fellow swift boat commanders in Vietnam say that they have been misrepresented by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a GOP-backed group of veterans who have attacked Kerry?s war record.

The two also say they have tried unsuccessfully for two weeks to get the group to change its Web site to reflect their support for Kerry.

The SBVT Web site shows a photo of Kerry with 19 officers from his division. The group said only one man in the picture, Skip Barker, supports Kerry. Rich McCann and Rich Baker are among four listed as ?neutral.?

But McCann, 60, a consultant from Chagrin Falls, Ohio, said he told the group he was neutral about whether it used his picture. ?I was never neutral about (Kerry) as president,? he said. ?If the question is whether John Kerry is fit to be commander in chief, my answer is absolutely.?

Baker, 61, now a baker, says he was never contacted by the group and calls Kerry is ?very well fit for command,? he said. ?He was one of the most courageous and aggressive swift boat captains in the division.?

Both men say they voted for Bush in 2000 but won?t again. Both said the men criticizing Kerry could have spoken up 35 years ago. Officers usually debriefed one another after missions before one of them, usually the senior tactical officer, wrote the official after-action report, they said.

The group?s claim that Kerry made up reports of enemy fire during a March 1969 mission when Kerry pulled a Green Beret from a river and won the Bronze Star doesn?t make sense to McCann and Baker.

?The other officers would have had the opportunity to say at the debriefing, ?No, John, we weren?t under fire,? ? Baker said.

McCann said that he had admired many of the Swift Boat Veterans group?s members for 35 years. But their actions now are ?suddenly breaking the bonds of our brotherhood,? he said.

McCann said he told Hoffmann a month and a half ago that he wanted nothing to do with his group. He said he sent a letter to the group two weeks ago demanding that it change its Web site. Hoffmann said Monday he would not do so until he heard ?directly? from McCann. ?I?ve got to get it from him, not from some newspaper,? he told a reporter.

The photo on the Swift Boat Veterans? Web site was changed only after news media inquired about the matter over the weekend -- two weeks after Baker and McCann demanded it be changed.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..

he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)

meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).
Attacking GWB's military service

gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..

he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)

meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).
Attacking GWB's military service

gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.

Then stop avoiding the issue that YOU NEOCONS started..... try to rebut against Harvey's post.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..

he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)

meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).
Attacking GWB's military service

gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.
LOL, what a joke you are. Some Yahoo in the audience flashes some Bumper Stickers and you equate that with Kerry supporting the questioning of Bushes service:laugh: Don't you ever get tired of being partisan Clowns?
 
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