Official Swiftboat Thread

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1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
LMAO!! I also know what the right tax plan is based on my feeling.

Which was exactly my point in the previous discussion - you use "feelings" to justify your tax policy - not logic. Anyway - that isn't the topic here.

CkG


I use logic and common sense to come to almost all my decesions. Once in a while my "feelings" will gewt the better of me. You whine because people disagree with your version of tax cuts and say it's based on their "arbitrary feelings". Believe what you want and so will I.

How do you know how I am making my decesions based on feelings. Did you decide that based on your feelings? The truth is you don't know. So to tell me that I base my decesions on tax cuts on "arbritary feelings" is wrong and then to say it is OK to do when deciding who the leader of the country is going to be is just plain ignorant. Especially so since I don't base either one on "feelings".

I look at the facts and interpret them to the best of my ability. Since I am older then you, I have more experience on which to come to my conclusions. I believe that Kerry is the better man and suspected from the start that the swifties were just jealous, vengeful, and acting on "feelings". As more and more facts come out, I am more and more convinced I was right. It has nothing to do with "feelings" for me, it has to do with logic, common sense, and life experiences.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
A pollster, and 1 Political Scientist doesn't say much to me when I'm a couple of classes and a dissertation away from obtaining the same degree. As NBC pointed out accurately today Bush is up all across the board on likely and registered voters. What is to account for this recent transition? Its nasty politicking out there and the Swift Boaters are having there way atm. Things will get even hotter once move-on starts pressing out more ads depending on quality.
I can't disagree with any of that. The LA Times poll shows Bush ahead by a greater margin than a few weeks ago, it's now 3 percentage points. I'll be glad when this election is over, regardless of who wins.
Good luck with your dissertation!
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
SBVfT don't have to prove or disprove anything about Kerry's actions in Vietnam. Their purpose is to cast doubt on his record to set up the next steps, where they escalate the campaign. First some questions about his service and medals. Then the tapes of his congressional testimony. Build things with the "Hanoi John" and "John Fonda Kerry" comments. Remind Vietnam veterans of the rage many felt thirty years ago about his testimony concerning atrocities committed by American troops, and remind them of the poor treatment many received on their return from the war. Build on that bitterness, with help from folks like Bob Dole.

As outraged as many here are about this campaign, Kerry set himself up for it. He can't have been so naive as to think none of this was going to come up when he made his Vietnam service the centerpiece of his nominating convention. Knowing the tendencies of Rove and the underground Bush supporters (see South Carolina primary campaign 2000) he was baiting them, perhaps hoping the electorate would be so disgusted by the negative campaign that it would backfire on Bush. If so, I fear he sadly misjudged the gullibility of the American voter, and underestimated the ill will remaining thirty years later about the "Winter Soldier" hearings.

Sad to say, JFK and the Democrats who actually thought him "electable" may have condemned us to four more years of Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft/Rumsfeld.
 

Farvacola

Senior member
Jul 14, 2004
753
0
0
It seems as though many of you havent been paying much attention as of late. Kerry has been using his military record as an asset, who wouldnt? BUT, he has been one of the few voices saying lets talk about the real issues. If Kerry had made the main part of his convention show, hmmm, lets say unemployment issues, you repubs would say that hes a pessimist and was boring. My god, you people need to keep current with whats being said.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
SBVfT don't have to prove or disprove anything about Kerry's actions in Vietnam. Their purpose is to cast doubt on his record to set up the next steps, where they escalate the campaign.

They don't have to prove it to say it, but that doesn't make it true. If they want to convince me, then they have to prove it. I can sit here and say GWB snorted cocaine while in the Air National Guard and then refused to take a required drug test, which resulted in him being grounded after learning to fly at the taxpayers expense. I can't prove it, but I can say it, and I can say it because I believe it.

The Swifties are just jealous, vengeful people and most of their leaders are proven liars. Your right that all they want to do is push the emotional "hot" buttons of the people. It was 33 years ago, most people are over it, but the last election was so close that they probably don't have to sway too many older people who remember vietnam and can have thier "buttons" pushed in order to have an effect.

I think the solution is to make sure that Kerry has the quality ads and enough money to air them. One of the keys is to get they vote out, especially the younger vote. I have a link in my sig, click on it and donate a couple of bucks to help get the real truth out. I put my money where my mouth is.

 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Good luck with your dissertation!

Thx, gonna need it.

I have to agree with your overall thesis CallMeJoe. These ads have stricken the bitter sands of time. I certainly can't imagine some of the horrors these men and women went through during this era. The recollection of these happenings must be arduous to deal with to say the least.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Bush believes Kerry's war record
http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/4950461.html
FARMINGTON, N.M. -- President Bush said Thursday that he did not believe Sen. John Kerry lied about his war record but declined again to condemn the television commercial paid for by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth alleging that the Massachusetts Democrat earned his medals dishonestly....

Too bad Bush couldn't go all-out and condemn the swiftboat ads. And, too bad Bush had to go running to McCain for help.

Some leader that Bush is. :roll:
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
They don't have to prove it to say it, but that doesn't make it true. If they want to convince me, then they have to prove it. I can sit here and say GWB snorted cocaine while in the Air National Guard and then refused to take a required drug test, which resulted in him being grounded after learning to fly at the taxpayers expense. I can't prove it, but I can say it, and I can say it because I believe it.
I meant they don't have to prove anything for their ads to have the desired effect. I seriously doubt the "truth" of most of what the SBVfT have said so far. I do, however, think it is having the desired effect on undecided voters.
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The Swifties are just jealous, vengeful people and most of their leaders are proven liars. Your right that all they want to do is push the emotional "hot" buttons of the people. It was 33 years ago, most people are over it, but the last election was so close that they probably don't have to sway too many older people who remember vietnam and can have thier "buttons" pushed in order to have an effect.
SBVfT would be more accurately named "Swift Boat Veterans Who Still Hate Kerry for What He Said About Americans in Vietnam". That doesn't lessen the effect they are having on the election.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Bush to NYT: "I think Senator Kerry should be proud of his record,'' Mr. Bush said. "No, I don't think he lied.''

Will you argue with your fearless leader? I suppose you will...

BTW yet another record was found that backed up the bronze star saying there was enemy fire. That's four Navy records now...
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
linkage

John Kerry has often implied that he volunteered for the military right after college. But Kerry petitioned his draft board for a student deferment. At Yale, Kerry's antiwar political views were well known. He . . . used his commencement address in 1966 to criticize the foreign policy of President Lyndon Johnson, especially with regard to Vietnam. When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy. . . . The top choice was the Navy Reserves where the duty commitment was shorter and a larger proportion of the period could be served stateside on inactive duty.

John Kerry's service record indicates that on February 18, 1966, he enlisted in the United States Naval Reserves, status 'inactive,' not in the U.S. Navy. These details are conveniently left out of all pro-Kerry biographies. Douglas Brinkley records that Kerry entered Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island; however, again he fails to note that Kerry was seeking to be an officer of the U.S. Naval Reserves.

Interesting...
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Kerry really needs to put this Swiftboat issue to rest. He should have never entered the fray, IMHO, or he should have responded immediately to the attack ads. I don't think trying to tie Bush and co. into this whole Swiftboat thing will do much good now, the damage to his military service has already been done.
I guess the Swifties did succeed, but I blame the media outlets for their relentless obsession on this issue. We've been in it for over a month now, and all they seem to be saying is "Why are we still talking about this?". I'll tell you why, because the media won't stop talking about it.
Hopefully, the RNC will put this whole Swiftboat issue to rest so that we can all focus on the more important issues affecting America. I think if your really dumb enough to be swayed by a 527 political ad, you shouldn't be voting at all.
My question to those who are swayed by these ads is this, do you think that what Kerry did 30+ years ago has much of a bearing on who he is today and how he wouldl run this country? Say Kerry did fudge some of his records a bit, does that mean he won't make a good President? Will he hand America over to the terrorists because he may have embellished his war record a bit? It still amazes me how much stock people put into such insignificant issues.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
Kerry really needs to put this Swiftboat issue to rest. He should have never entered the fray, IMHO, or he should have responded immediately to the attack ads. I don't think trying to tie Bush and co. into this whole Swiftboat thing will do much good now, the damage to his military service has already been done.
I guess the Swifties did succeed, but I blame the media outlets for their relentless obsession on this issue. We've been in it for over a month now, and all they seem to be saying is "Why are we still talking about this?". I'll tell you why, because the media won't stop talking about it.
Hopefully, the RNC will put this whole Swiftboat issue to rest so that we can all focus on the more important issues affecting America. I think if your really dumb enough to be swayed by a 527 political ad, you shouldn't be voting at all.
My question to those who are swayed by these ads is this, do you think that what Kerry did 30+ years ago has much of a bearing on who he is today and how he wouldl run this country? Say Kerry did fudge some of his records a bit, does that mean he won't make a good President? Will he hand America over to the terrorists because he may have embellished his war record a bit? It still amazes me how much stock people put into such insignificant issues.

If he signed a form 180 and released his records like Bush has, all this would be cleared up by now. Instead he has been caught with inconsistant stories which only helped the swift vets.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: wiin

1EZduzit said.

The whole thing disgusts me personally, and reminds me why I never liked politics. I get the sense these SBVT guys are simply Bush supporters who are still upset with Kerry because he spoke out when returning from the war

Actually, that was me that posted that..here is the original post.

Originally posted by: Insane3D
The whole thing disgusts me personally, and reminds me why I never liked politics. I get the sense these SBVT guys are simply Bush supporters who are still upset with Kerry because he spoke out when returning from the war, so they are returning the favor in their minds. Personally, I know Kerry was there fighting for this country, and that's enough for me. I think questioning Bush's record is equally stupid.

I wish we were talking about actual issues, and who's going to do what if they get elected/re-elected, and not wasting everyones time with this crap that seems to only be for the partisan junkies that love this type of stuff.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
charrison quit stating that Bush has released all his military documents. There are still a few that have either magically disappeared, or cannot be found.
 

tmservo

Junior Member
Aug 27, 2004
22
0
0
> even if this is all true, why didn't these guys come foward 30 years ago? <

Realize, a whole lot of this has not a lot to do with what happened in Vietnam, and a lot to do with what happened afterwards. Kerry's approach to the war after leaving Vietnam netted him a lot of negatives amongst the vets, who felt improperly portrayed as murderous butchers.

As far as "has any of this been true", as a matter of context, it's difficult to say if either is "true" as both will perceive events however they want them, and there was no video tape there to show us anything more then what they say.

At this point, one person literally on his boat says "no way in cambodia" and two in his sr. line of command say that it could not have been so. No one who tours with him will address that issue specifically, so who knows on that one.

As to the other stuff (ie, taking fire when he rescued Rasmussen, etc.) the facts tend to support Kerry, as to many people accepted commendation from that event.

I've got to say, the one thing that catches me about this everytime is that it's really dumb of his campaign to keep talking about this thinking they are "winning points" by debating other vets. I don't see where that helps them at all; the Kerry camp would have been better to say "well, they can believe whatever they want, it's America, there are kooks everywhere" and walked away rather then to continue issue battling press releases which keep this thing at the top of the news.
 

DoubleL

Golden Member
Apr 3, 2001
1,202
0
0
Well I keep hearing if you were not on the boat even if you were 5 ft. away you don't know, I heard for the first time yesterday from Steve Garner, Most likey not the way he spells his last name, He was with Kerry longer than anyone in nam, He was the gunner on Kerry's boat, He says the swiftboard vets are telling the truth and he added more, Ask if he had been contacted by anyone he said no and doesn't want to be, I have a friend that was at the same place with Kerry and no one has contacted him so I know alittle more than most, I also know about combat and nam
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Originally posted by: DoubleL
Well I keep hearing if you were not on the boat even if you were 5 ft. away you don't know, I heard for the first time yesterday from Steve Garner, Most likey not the way he spells his last name, He was with Kerry longer than anyone in nam, He was the gunner on Kerry's boat, He says the swiftboard vets are telling the truth and he added more, Ask if he had been contacted by anyone he said no and doesn't want to be, I have a friend that was at the same place with Kerry and no one has contacted him so I know alittle more than most, I also know about combat and nam

Who is Steve Gardner?


"Yet while Gardner did serve as a gunner under Kerry's command on PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) 44, he has admitted that he -- just like the rest of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claiming that Kerry is lying about his medals -- was not present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of any medals or any of Kerry's three Purple Hearts.

Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage's radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was "not on the boat with him [Kerry]" when that injury occurred."
 

tmservo

Junior Member
Aug 27, 2004
22
0
0
However, Gardner would have been on the boat if it had been in Cambodia.

Admiral in charge of the operation speaks out:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-nws-novak27.html


I think there are some people who care a lot about this, most people don't really give a crap. Most of the people who care really aren't so concerned with what happened during the war; it's what happened afterwards.. and their bitterness over it. I handle network administration for quite a few business local, and one of my larger clients put in a donation.. let's say, tens of thousands, to SBVT. Now, it'd be easy to dismiss her as a die-hard republican (except she's not; and her company donated fifty thousand to the DNC in 2000) but it's a lot easier to say: her family are Vietnamese who came to the US after a perilous boat journey when she was a child, and her family still really hates the anti-war protestors, and that pretty much sealed what she was going to do.

In other words, the "facts" of the case matter some to some people, but longstanding bitterness.. that lasts forever
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Here we go again...

Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB

In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon

B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations

But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."

Thomas Lipscomb is chairman of the Center for the Digital Future in New York.

Maybe kerry should release ALL his records so this will go away...

CkG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: DoubleL
Well I keep hearing if you were not on the boat even if you were 5 ft. away you don't know, I heard for the first time yesterday from Steve Garner, Most likey not the way he spells his last name, He was with Kerry longer than anyone in nam, He was the gunner on Kerry's boat, He says the swiftboard vets are telling the truth and he added more, Ask if he had been contacted by anyone he said no and doesn't want to be, I have a friend that was at the same place with Kerry and no one has contacted him so I know alittle more than most, I also know about combat and nam

Look up several posts. I posted a transcript of the ad with Gardner as well some detail proving him a liar.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: smashp
Originally posted by: DoubleL
Well I keep hearing if you were not on the boat even if you were 5 ft. away you don't know, I heard for the first time yesterday from Steve Garner, Most likey not the way he spells his last name, He was with Kerry longer than anyone in nam, He was the gunner on Kerry's boat, He says the swiftboard vets are telling the truth and he added more, Ask if he had been contacted by anyone he said no and doesn't want to be, I have a friend that was at the same place with Kerry and no one has contacted him so I know alittle more than most, I also know about combat and nam

Who is Steve Gardner?


"Yet while Gardner did serve as a gunner under Kerry's command on PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) 44, he has admitted that he -- just like the rest of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claiming that Kerry is lying about his medals -- was not present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of any medals or any of Kerry's three Purple Hearts.

Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage's radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was "not on the boat with him [Kerry]" when that injury occurred."

LOL, DoubleL sure has the inside information. Sounds like he should have been interviewed to be a swiftie himself.

The Swities are just a bunch of disgruntled vets mad about Kerry speaking out against the war. They can't prove their story, indeed most of it can be proven false. Vietnam was a very turbulent time and the country was split about the Vietnam war. It wasn't "clear" what the US should do. We just kept dumping more money, resources, and people into it and were getting nothing in return except our dead and maimed soliders. (Sound familar?)

One thing to note is that Kerry could have came home and still went into politics based on his excellent war record and not spoken out against the war. He chose to do what he believed was the right thing and try to help stop the war. In my view, he had, and still has more guts then the all of those phony Swifties put together.

People don't seem to think that what happened 30 years ago matters,but I think it does. If Kerry would have been proven to be nothing but a lying coward, I sure wouldn't be voting for him. That hasn't happened, instead I see a person who served his country in an unpopular war not only with honor, but with distinction. He then came home and used his "freedom of speech" to dissent against that war. Since he had been there, his words carried weight with the people of this country and he helped to end the war. He should be commended, not castigated.

One thing that stands out for me is that he was in Vietnam risking his life, and I don't think anybody will argue that he wasn't risking his life, so that GWB could have the right to refuse to take a drug test. Can you imagine someone in today's military who had all that training at the goverment's expense refuseing a drug test today? I wonder what they would do to him?? I would be willing to bet that he wouldn't get an "honorable discharge"!!
 
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