Official Swiftboat Thread

[Pliablemoose]

So no-one has a coment on Kerry's new military award misrepresentation?

 

[nageov3t]

the important thing to me is that he was willing to go.

unlike Junior, Cheney, and Ashcroft, all of whom supported the war but weren't willing to go to Vietnam themselves.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I have a friend that was at the same place with Kerry and no one has contacted him so I know alittle more than most, I also know about combat and nam

LMAO. You know a little less than most DoubleL, don't flatter yourself!

Who is Steve Gardner?

Owned.

 

[CaptnKirk]

I watched an interview last night where one of the 'SBVFT's' kept saying, over and over, that
"I spent more time on Kerry's boat than anyone else" - But NONE of that time was with Kerry,
nor in the time that Kerry was on the boat, or in command of the boat.
Like it was either before Kerry came to the outfit - or after he had left the outfit.

What did this guy do on that boat ? Sleep on the deck when it was in port just to build up his
'Time On The Boat' ? This is assinine - If he didn't serve with Kerry, or serve under Kerry's
command, I don't care how many hours he spent a year of two before or after - standing on the
same boat that Kerry had been on in the past or 'shall have been on' in some time in the future -
THE BOAT is not the enity of accomplishment, service with Kerry during his tenure is the criteria.

If you are not present during an event, just going there dosen't automatically make you a participant.

I went to the Hollywood Bowl once, but did not see the Beatles. The Beatles played the Hollywood Bowl
way back in the early/mid '60's. I could go to the Hollywood Bowl, pitch a tent and live there for 80 years -
but never see the Beatles, but "I spent more time at the Hollywood Bowl than any other Groupie"
dosen't make me see the Beatles any more than spending more time on Swift Boat PCF-44 makes
him an actual member of the combat incident in question.

O'Niell ? He didn't serve with - or under Kerry - he was the person that assumed command of that
particular vehicle after Kerry had left the theatre - replacing a person. in or on something - doesn't
grant you that time frame experience by proxy, any more than getting into a car that had been in
a crash makes you a survivor of that car crash.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
So no-one has a coment on Kerry's new military award misrepresentation?

:roll: Sen Kerry didn't prepare his own DD214! Believe it or not, there are sometimes errors in military records - the federal bureaucracy makes mistakes.

Everytime I participate in a court-martial (and I've been involved in 40-50 over the years), the Government prepares a Personal Data Sheet that documents the accused's service record, including his/her decorations. They get the awards/decs info from a RIP created by PC-III, the computer program used to document an Airman's personnel information. I'd say at least 40% of these records contained errors, and incorrectly documented the member's medals. This is 2004, when we HAVE such a program - Sen Kerry's DD214 was created by some personnelist in front of a typewriter, creating even more room for error.

I find it just ridiculous that anyone would imply Sen Kerry added a Valor device to his DD214 for a Silver Star he was clearly awarded. He'd have no incentive to do this at all, from what I can see, and falsifying his record would constitute a fairly serious federal offense.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
So no-one has a coment on Kerry's new military award misrepresentation?

:roll: Sen Kerry didn't prepare his own DD214! Believe it or not, there are sometimes errors in military records - the federal bureaucracy makes mistakes.

Everytime I participate in a court-martial (and I've been involved in 40-50 over the years), the Government prepares a Personal Data Sheet that documents the accused's service record, including his/her decorations. They get the awards/decs info from a RIP created by PC-III, the computer program used to document an Airman's personnel information. I'd say at least 40% of these records contained errors, and incorrectly documented the member's medals. This is 2004, when we HAVE such a program - Sen Kerry's DD214 was created by some personnelist in front of a typewriter, creating even more room for error.

I find it just ridiculous that anyone would imply Sen Kerry added a Valor device to his DD214 for a Silver Star he was clearly awarded. He'd have no incentive to do this at all, from what I can see, and falsifying his record would constitute a fairly serious federal offense.

Just more obfuscation and distortion from the Bush fans.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

John Kerry's service record indicates that on February 18, 1966, he enlisted in the United States Naval Reserves, status 'inactive,' not in the U.S. Navy. These details are conveniently left out of all pro-Kerry biographies. Douglas Brinkley records that Kerry entered Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island; however, again he fails to note that Kerry was seeking to be an officer of the U.S. Naval Reserves.

Interesting...

I entered the USAF reserve in January of 1972, inactive status. I received an honorable discharge from the reserve and started active duty May 1972 when my training slot opened. That was one way things were done then. It was called "delayed entry". Does that make me somehow a draft dodger?

 

[KarenMarie]

Ok, I have some questions here....

Why did he get the same award issued three times?
Why is there a Combat V, that should not be there, on his silver star?
Why do some in the Kerry camp now say that his wound 'could have been' self inflicted?
Why won't Kerry release the other 94+ pages of his record?

I have read what the Kerry haters have said to explain this, but I consider the source, and would like an explaination from his supporters. Seems that the more they dig, the more questions are raised that no one can explain. I would like a level headed, honest explaination of this. I don't to hear about where Bush was, or how Cheney got off, or anything else...

Seriously, as someone who is still undecided, this raises questions. I am open minded to hear reasonable explainations.

 

[burnedout]

John Kerry's service record indicates that on February 18, 1966, he enlisted in the United States Naval Reserves, status 'inactive,' not in the U.S. Navy. These details are conveniently left out of all pro-Kerry biographies. Douglas Brinkley records that Kerry entered Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island; however, again he fails to note that Kerry was seeking to be an officer of the U.S. Naval Reserves.

Could be wrong, but I think all OCS candidates were automatically slotted for a reserve commision back then.

 

[Ringthane]

To all of you Bush-heads out there: do you actually hold your dear uber-lord Bush in higher esteem than Kerry for their respective actions during the Vietnam conflict? Regardless if Kerry was a yellow-bellied, tuck-his-tail-and-run leader (doubtful), he DID request combat duty and he DID get wounded in combat. Bush DID request stateside duty (or worse yet - his father did it for him), and not many people even remember him during that time period. So on one hand you have a guy in the middle of the action, and on the other hand you have a guy trying to GET a little action ;-)? If the roles were reversed you new right wingers would be BLASTING away at the democratic challenger on this issue.

With that said the vets are just pissed b/c Kerry came back from Nam and told the real story: war is hell, and this is what happens in hell. 44,000 americans were dead at that point. Personally, I would not have had the balls to tell that story, knowing that my fellow soldiers would hate me for it. But it was the truth. God, this picking at him over this just makes me abhor the republican party to no end. BTW, this is the first election I will be voting Democrat, and the first president I ever voted for? George H.W. Bush.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

I wonder why he just didn't invite him in the house?

And concede to his opportunistic aspirations?

 

[jlmadyson]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Ok, I have some questions here....

Why did he get the same award issued three times?
Why is there a Combat V, that should not be there, on his silver star?
Why do some in the Kerry camp now say that his wound 'could have been' self inflicted?
Why won't Kerry release the other 94+ pages of his record?

I have read what the Kerry haters have said to explain this, but I consider the source, and would like an explaination from his supporters. Seems that the more they dig, the more questions are raised that no one can explain. I would like a level headed, honest explaination of this. I don't to hear about where Bush was, or how Cheney got off, or anything else...

Seriously, as someone who is still undecided, this raises questions. I am open minded to hear reasonable explainations.

Link

Check the linky.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: jlmadyson

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Ok, I have some questions here....

Why did he get the same award issued three times?
Why is there a Combat V, that should not be there, on his silver star?
Why do some in the Kerry camp now say that his wound 'could have been' self inflicted?
Why won't Kerry release the other 94+ pages of his record?

I have read what the Kerry haters have said to explain this, but I consider the source, and would like an explaination from his supporters. Seems that the more they dig, the more questions are raised that no one can explain. I would like a level headed, honest explaination of this. I don't to hear about where Bush was, or how Cheney got off, or anything else...

Seriously, as someone who is still undecided, this raises questions. I am open minded to hear reasonable explainations.

Link

Check the linky.

HMMMMM Robert Novak , Now he has Established Links To the Bush Admin...... Possible treasonous Links if I remember.


Bob Novak is a stooge.

 

[KarenMarie]

To the above two posters....

This is exactly what I am trying to get away from, although I appreciate your time in reading and responding to my post.

There have been serious questions raised about Kerry and his military service. It is, even if some won't admit it, creating a lot of problems for Kerry. The right says he lied, the left refuse to answer and questions and just deflect the questions by attacking Bush.

There are many undecideds that look at this situation, and wonder what the truth is, and why no one in the Kerry camp, or any of his supporters will give an explaination to any discrepancies or answer any questions. I was hoping that with all the Kerry supporters here, that someone would be able to answer or explain without the typical... It is all lies, and Bush never served.

Thanks...

 

[conjur]

What questions does the left have to answer? Questions that are based upon lies? Kerry has nothing for which to answer to the swiftboat liars.

 

[jlmadyson]

What Kerry said 30 plus years ago will forever haunt him. There is no explanation that can refute the cold hard truth. The interview only backs up the thesis by indicating not only the onboard officer, but the commanding officer of the unit. What more is there to say the commanding officer told Kerry flat out no. I shot myself in the arse now gimme my purple heart. lol

Who cares about Novak. A seperate interviewed had been carried out.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
To the above two posters....

This is exactly what I am trying to get away from, although I appreciate your time in reading and responding to my post.

There have been serious questions raised about Kerry and his military service. It is, even if some won't admit it, creating a lot of problems for Kerry. The right says he lied, the left refuse to answer and questions and just deflect the questions by attacking Bush.

There are many undecideds that look at this situation, and wonder what the truth is, and why no one in the Kerry camp, or any of his supporters will give an explaination to any discrepancies or answer any questions. I was hoping that with all the Kerry supporters here, that someone would be able to answer or explain without the typical... It is all lies, and Bush never served.

Thanks...

Fact is, whoever gets elected will have to deal with our economy, rocked by 9-11, wholesale outsourcing of anything that can be outsourced, the ripple effect of increased energy costs, the growing deficit, rising personal debit, the huge bubble of retirees that'll be drawing SS, the costs of the military presence in the quagmire that is the Middle East, etc, where's this election's Perot to say: "The economy is like your crazy aunt chained up in in the basement that no-one talks about?" We're all looking @ the harsh reality of higher taxes & higher interest rates, soon..., sad fact is, changing presidents is just putting another captain in charge of an oil tanker that doesn't have enough room to slow down or turn before running aground.

& I too am concerned about the way both politicians represent their military service, however, I do like the fact that they both served.

 

[jlmadyson]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
To the above two posters....

This is exactly what I am trying to get away from, although I appreciate your time in reading and responding to my post.

There have been serious questions raised about Kerry and his military service. It is, even if some won't admit it, creating a lot of problems for Kerry. The right says he lied, the left refuse to answer and questions and just deflect the questions by attacking Bush.

There are many undecideds that look at this situation, and wonder what the truth is, and why no one in the Kerry camp, or any of his supporters will give an explaination to any discrepancies or answer any questions. I was hoping that with all the Kerry supporters here, that someone would be able to answer or explain without the typical... It is all lies, and Bush never served.

Thanks...

Fact is, whoever gets elected will have to deal with our economy, rocked by 9-11, wholesale outsourcing of anything that can be outsourced, the ripple effect of increased energy costs, the growing deficit, rising personal debit, the huge bubble of retirees that'll be drawing SS, the costs of the military presence in the quagmire that is the Middle East, etc, where's this election's Perot to say: "The economy is like your crazy aunt chained up in in the basement that no-one talks about?" We're all looking @ the harsh reality of higher taxes & higher interest rates, soon..., sad fact is, changing presidents is just putting another captain in charge of an oil tanker that doesn't have enough room to slow down or turn before running aground.

& I too am concerned about the way both politicians represent their military service, however, I do like the fact that they both served.

Agree

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: conjur
What questions does the left have to answer? Questions that are based upon lies? Kerry has nothing for which to answer to the swiftboat liars.

Why did he get the same award issued three times?
Why is there a Combat V, that should not be there, on his silver star?
Why do some in the Kerry camp now say that his wound 'could have been' self inflicted?
Why won't Kerry release the other 94+ pages of his record?


I am not trying to be a smartazz, honest...

but these are questions that have been raised, and the only answers that Kerry and his supporters give is that Bush never served, and everyone else is lying. But, to many undecideds, these are questions/issues that we would like answered/explained. And, with all due respect.. this is my opinion here.... Kerry ran the first three months of his campaign on his military record, so I kinda think he brought this on himself in a way, throwing it out there for inspection. And it also seems that every time I turn around, there are more and more questions raised by ppl who are taking sides in this issue and raising more questions.

Both sides are so polarized by this. I do not want to make accusations, nor point fingers... but I do not want it to just be swept away, dismissed or deflected. What I am hoping, is that there can be an explaination or answers to these questions. In a calm, nonconfrontational way. No fights, no arguments, no finger pointing. Just an explaination.

thanks...

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: conjur
What questions does the left have to answer? Questions that are based upon lies? Kerry has nothing for which to answer to the swiftboat liars.

Why did he get the same award issued three times?

The Purple Heart? Well, look up the rules re:who's eligible for a Purple Heart Award. You'll find Kerry qualifies for each injury.

Why is there a Combat V, that should not be there, on his silver star?

That's been given a probable answer: government error.

Why do some in the Kerry camp now say that his wound 'could have been' self inflicted?

To deflect criticisms? They weren't there and were likely speaking off-the-cuff when confronted and didn't consult with Kerry personally.

Why won't Kerry release the other 94+ pages of his record?

<shrug> Perhaps it contains medical and/or personal information that is protected by HIPAA?

 

[jlmadyson]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: conjur
What questions does the left have to answer? Questions that are based upon lies? Kerry has nothing for which to answer to the swiftboat liars.

Why did he get the same award issued three times?
Why is there a Combat V, that should not be there, on his silver star?
Why do some in the Kerry camp now say that his wound 'could have been' self inflicted?
Why won't Kerry release the other 94+ pages of his record?


I am not trying to be a smartazz, honest...

but these are questions that have been raised, and the only answers that Kerry and his supporters give is that Bush never served, and everyone else is lying. But, to many undecideds, these are questions/issues that we would like answered/explained. And, with all due respect.. this is my opinion here.... Kerry ran the first three months of his campaign on his military record, so I kinda think he brought this on himself in a way, throwing it out there for inspection. And it also seems that every time I turn around, there are more and more questions raised by ppl who are taking sides in this issue and raising more questions.

Both sides are so polarized by this. I do not want to make accusations, nor point fingers... but I do not want it to just be swept away, dismissed or deflected. What I am hoping, is that there can be an explaination or answers to these questions. In a calm, nonconfrontational way. No fights, no arguments, no finger pointing. Just an explaination.

thanks...

Or here is another look at it;

1. "The PURPLE HEART is awarded to members of the armed forces of the U.S. who are wounded by an instrument of war in the hands of the enemy and posthumously to the next of kin in the name of those who are killed in action or die of wounds received in action. It is specifically a combat decoration."

2. According to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star." B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

3. Good question. Still wondering myself.

4. Another good question.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: conjur
What questions does the left have to answer? Questions that are based upon lies? Kerry has nothing for which to answer to the swiftboat liars.

Why did he get the same award issued three times?

The Purple Heart? Well, look up the rules re:who's eligible for a Purple Heart Award. You'll find Kerry qualifies for each injury.

Why is there a Combat V, that should not be there, on his silver star?

That's been given a probable answer: government error.

Why do some in the Kerry camp now say that his wound 'could have been' self inflicted?

To deflect criticisms? They weren't there and were likely speaking off-the-cuff when confronted and didn't consult with Kerry personally.

Why won't Kerry release the other 94+ pages of his record?

<shrug> Perhaps it contains medical and/or personal information that is protected by HIPAA?

Firstly, thank you for your tone in replying to me. It is hard to ask questions here, as it can get pretty hateful, real quick. I read and read and 90% of the times only find...you suck, no you suck, I hate you... by the same people, over and over, in most of the threads. Hard to find content, or have a discussion.

Ok... The purple hearts... I have no questions on how many he has, or if he deserves them or not. I was not there, I cannot disprove his worthiness and to date have not seen concrete proof that anyone can. Therefore, I must deduce that he got them cause he deserved them.

I was looking for an explaination to this. And while the source might be not to some people's liking, I choose it cause it was the first one... I have loads more links... I am interested in "Fake Claims Not Uncommon, One Award Three Citations, part of the article. The right side says it might be because he was looking to make himself look better in killing an injured fleeing kid in the back, while others claim it was cause he was looking to get the citation signed by higher up's in the military. Ok, that is the Kerry haters side. I would really like to be fair and listen to the other side.

I have never served in the military. I have three brothers who were not of age to go to war. My father fought two years combat in Korea, but never received any medals, and doesn't like talking about the war. So, in the interest of being open minded.... what is the answer to why it was done three times, when they say that is usually unheard of?

thanks...

 

[tmservo]

I don't know. Miss Ross in some ways.. your note of this:

where's this election's Perot to say: "The economy is like your crazy aunt chained up in in the basement that no-one talks about?

Always reminds me of the giant sucking sound.. people complain about jobs going abroad.. but when Clinton got all aboard NAFTA, and GATT, and APAC, and WTO, what people were thinking about where the great jobs being created by Toyota in Tennessee.. now that it turns around on you, and some jobs go the other way.. I'm just waiting for Ross to pop up and ay "see, I told you so, I told you so" and I hate to break it to people who are either Bush or Kerry backers, but that isn't going to change; any more then England was able to stop the boating industry from moving to the US in the early 1800s. The reality is, for all the "tax breaks" for the companies that go abroad, the biggest one is one we aren't going to get out of.. that is that goods and earnings coming from a foreign based subsidairy are only taxed by the host country and not the parent country. Hey, when we inked NAFTA and so on, we thought that was a good idea; Sony put up subsidiaries here, etc. with incentives, and they'd pay taxes here, making it lucritive for them to come this way (and they did, and bought up movie studios, and hired on people, and infused capital) but when it works the other way (a company starts a subsidiary abroad, and they pay taxes only to that country on that subsidiary instead of including it in their US tax levy) we get pissy But for all the "he's better at X" "he's better at Y" you find me anything that says either of these two candidates is going to quickly renegotiate world trade agreements. Don't think so.

And people who believe Kerry can bring together a "coalition" in a hurry? Keep dreaming. It's not like they have an immense desire to run back in now. Spain doesn't care who's in office here, they won't go back to Iraq; and Kerry has said he is committed to a continued US prescence. So, what differs there between the two?

The problem with the two major parties is that for all the bitching and moaning, you find me a real effective difference on what either of these guys has proposed and the reality of how it will turn out, and I'll listen. Meanwhile, I'll stick with voting libertarian. I think the day we finally realize that Social Security and the Department of Education, TVA, FLIA, and other government parasites need to be banished into oblivion (and we'll give it a time frame for those committed) the better off we are.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Swift Boat Crewman: Kerry Boat Took Fire

This is getting worse and worse for the Swifties by the minute. Now, one of their own members, is saying that Kerry's boat DID in fact receive enemy fire, CONTRADICTING Thurlow's statements that there was no enemy fire. According to Mr. Lambert, Thurlow was too busy with the rescue effort to notice. For those that don't know who Lambert is, he was awarded the Bronze star for pulling none other than LARRY THURLOW out of the water.

 

[1EZduzit]

KarenMarie

WHy isn't Bush releasing all his records? He has records sealed in his Dads' Presidential library. I wonder why? Aren't you concerned about those records?

Why did Bush not take his drug test? Aren't you curious aboput that?

Can't you just give credit to Kerry for at least being in Vietnam and risking his life without picking him apart because he has "94 pages" of unreleased documents? How many pages of unreleased documents are in the Bush Presidential Library and WHY are they there? The only reason that makes since to me is to protect Bush Sr. Hmmmm.

If Kerry were to release his records then how many other lies would he have to defend himself against?

You say Kerry shot a kid in the back. Prove it. You can't, can you. Talk is cheap and time is money. You want to keep asking the same old tired questions and play innocent, but you have no questions about Bush? I think it is obvious, at least to me, what your game is liitle miss innocent.