**OFFICIAL WAR THREAD** 7th Calvary fights off Iraqi attack; Bush seeks 75 billion for war

[conjur]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

I don't think so. Hopefully at the end of the war, the rest of the arab world will look at Iraq, see the people partying in the streets, realize that Saddam really was an ass and that he really did have WMD. And I would much rather have the US/UK do it themselves then try to have France/Germany/Russia horn in and try to do it their way.

Or maybe the other Arab countries will see the 'partying in the streets' and see the democratic state being erected in Iraq and go, "Oh sh!t! Now *our* citizens may revolt and want democracy."

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf
US says FU to UN.....

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=NTMF23RVQKQ1OCRBAEZSFEY?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2446639

U.S. Says Ready to Rebuild Iraq Without U.N.

Don't like that. That's just opening the door to terrorist attacks on U.S. and British soil/interests.

I don't think so. Hopefully at the end of the war, the rest of the arab world will look at Iraq, see the people partying in the streets, realize that Saddam really was an ass and that he really did have WMD. And I would much rather have the US/UK do it themselves then try to have France/Germany/Russia horn in and try to do it their way.

UN/Iraqi - it has to be a UN/Iraqi way. Its been sold to the British public as such and I for one see absolutely zero justification for the allies to determine it amongst themselves.

Andy

 

[MoobyTheGoldenCalf]

UN/Iraqi - it has to be a UN/Iraqi way. Its been sold to the British public as such and I for one see absolutely zero justification for the allies to determine it amongst themselves.

Andy

How about the fact that not one French/German/Russian soldier has shed their blood in this confict?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

UN/Iraqi - it has to be a UN/Iraqi way. Its been sold to the British public as such and I for one see absolutely zero justification for the allies to determine it amongst themselves.

Andy

How about the fact that not one French/German/Russian soldier has shed their blood in this confict?

Doesn't matter.

The UN is the best mechanism for rebuilding Iraq once the shooting stops.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

UN/Iraqi - it has to be a UN/Iraqi way. Its been sold to the British public as such and I for one see absolutely zero justification for the allies to determine it amongst themselves.

Andy

How about the fact that not one French/German/Russian soldier has shed their blood in this confict?

Its Iraq's country - not the US or the UK or anyone who's doing the fighting! They should decide who rebuilds what. If they are ncapable of that then an international concensus should be reached - through the UN. If Iraq decide to want/not want US companies to take part in rebuidling that should be up to them.

This isn't a kind of "the spoils go to the victor".

Andy

 

[MoobyTheGoldenCalf]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

UN/Iraqi - it has to be a UN/Iraqi way. Its been sold to the British public as such and I for one see absolutely zero justification for the allies to determine it amongst themselves.

Andy

How about the fact that not one French/German/Russian soldier has shed their blood in this confict?

Doesn't matter.

The UN is the best mechanism for rebuilding Iraq once the shooting stops.

Just like the UN was the best mechanism for disarming Iraq, huh? Get real.......

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

UN/Iraqi - it has to be a UN/Iraqi way. Its been sold to the British public as such and I for one see absolutely zero justification for the allies to determine it amongst themselves.

Andy

How about the fact that not one French/German/Russian soldier has shed their blood in this confict?

Doesn't matter.

The UN is the best mechanism for rebuilding Iraq once the shooting stops.

Just like the UN was the best mechanism for disarming Iraq, huh? Get real.......

So the UK prime minister is happily lying to us all then?

Andy

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

Just like the UN was the best mechanism for disarming Iraq, huh? Get real.......

No, the UN is useless at enforcing resolutions involving violent means to achieve results. However, they are adept at peacekeeping/rebuilding operations.

And I, for one, do NOT want a U.S.-led gov't of ANY type in post-war Iraq! I do not want to see the backlash from the Arab world if that were to happen.

 

[conjur]

Ok...getting Off-thread-topic here...back to news.

Iraqi Information Minister denies reports of uprising in Basra.

Surprise!

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Its Iraq's country - not the US or the UK or anyone who's doing the fighting! They should decide who rebuilds what. If they are ncapable of that then an international concensus should be reached - through the UN.

Ahh, so if the UN didn't exist, the world would...

what...

fall apart?

Some people have been hogwashed into thinking the UN is the new world government. It isn't, and was never meant to be...

This isn't a kind of "the spoils go to the victor".

Andy

Yes it is... Wars are fought for one of three reasons:

Economic
Political
Religious

This one is partly Economic and partly Political...

We win the war, we get some spoils, that's how it works...

: ) Hopper

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Its Iraq's country - not the US or the UK or anyone who's doing the fighting! They should decide who rebuilds what. If they are ncapable of that then an international concensus should be reached - through the UN.

Ahh, so if the UN didn't exist, the world would...

what...

fall apart?

Some people have been hogwashed into thinking the UN is the new world government. It isn't, and was never meant to be...

This isn't a kind of "the spoils go to the victor".

Andy

Yes it is... Wars are fought for one of three reasons:

Economic
Political
Religious

This one is partly Economic and partly Political...

We win the war, we get some spoils, that's how it works...

: ) Hopper

Well then "liberation" is a very flexible term. If anyone wants to continue this I'd be happy to move this to the other official war thread.

Andy

 

[MoobyTheGoldenCalf]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

Just like the UN was the best mechanism for disarming Iraq, huh? Get real.......

No, the UN is useless at enforcing resolutions involving violent means to achieve results. However, they are adept at peacekeeping/rebuilding operations.

And I, for one, do NOT want a U.S.-led gov't of ANY type in post-war Iraq! I do not want to see the backlash from the Arab world if that were to happen.

Look, I don't think anyone is saying that Iraq is about to become the 51st state, but when a new government is installed we should at least supervise who that government will be so that we can insure they will be friendly to the US. We are already talking to lots exiiled iraqis about forming new a new government. And of course, Chirac is already saying France will veto any UN resolution giving the coalition partners any administrive powers over Iraq. I say, screw the UN then. They didn't want to participate in the war, so they shouldn't get to participate in the rebuilding. It's not a spoils of war thing...

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: Fencer128
This isn't a kind of "the spoils go to the victor".

Andy

Yes it is... Wars are fought for one of three reasons:

Economic
Political
Religious

This one is partly Economic and partly Political...

We win the war, we get some spoils, that's how it works...

: ) Hopper

No, we don't. We remove Saddam from power, liberate the people, destroy the weapons of mass destruction when found, and get fck outta Dodge!

We're not Vikings or Visigoths.

 

[BurntCpu]

wtf, republican guards dressing and mingling with civilians then attacking or soldiers from witihin the crowd.
My solution Tear gas the whole fvcking lot, tie up up and interview with interpreter and find out who is who.
Apologize to the real civilians give em some MRE and water and send them on their merry way. No hard feelings

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Well then "liberation" is a very flexible term. If anyone wants to continue this I'd be happy to move this to the other official war thread.

Andy

Oh, they will be liberated and their country returned to them... Most of the oil will indeed remain theirs, we'll just take a bit for our "services" in the invasion, and of course American oil companies will get their picks of oil contracts...

: ) Hopper

 

[kleinesarschloch]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
During the Balkans campaign we bombed the Yugo factory.
Got them back for the lousy car they built.

Tag - You're it

karma is a bitch, ain't it?

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf

I don't think so. Hopefully at the end of the war, the rest of the arab world will look at Iraq, see the people partying in the streets, realize that Saddam really was an ass and that he really did have WMD. And I would much rather have the US/UK do it themselves then try to have France/Germany/Russia horn in and try to do it their way.

Or maybe the other Arab countries will see the 'partying in the streets' and see the democratic state being erected in Iraq and go, "Oh sh!t! Now *our* citizens may revolt and want democracy."

See Iran, just next door, with a population of about 65 million, HALF of which are under the age of 25 and screaming for secular democratic rule......

 

[MoobyTheGoldenCalf]

A reporter just asked Ari about a report of the US placing nukes in Kuwait. Of course he had no comment....

If true, I wonder if that is part of the "response" we would have to iraqi WMD use?

 

[Alistar7]

Anyone seen the movie Heartbreak Ridge? The Officer portrayed in that movie will likely be the person running the show in Iraq until there can be elections. Can't remember his name though, Lebaneese descent, A degree from Jordan and a masters from Harvard in middle eastern affairs, this man is pretty well respected even within the Arab world.

 

[MoobyTheGoldenCalf]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Anyone seen the movie Heartbreak Ridge? The Officer portrayed in that movie will likely be the person running the show in Iraq until there can be elections. Can't remember his name though, Lebaneese descent, A degree from Jordan and a masters from Harvard in middle eastern affairs, this man is pretty well respected even within the Arab world.

From the Reuters story:

.....the United States was still planning to install retired Lt. Gen. Jay Garner as civil administrator in Iraq, and Barbara Bodine, a former ambassador to Yemen, as his coordinator for civil administrator.

 

[Cfour]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf
FoxNews now has a story about the Basra uprising:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82088,00.html

Yup, im listening to this as well.. thread should be updated as this is pretty big news!

 

[Alistar7]

you can kick a dog for years and they will take it almost everytime, but rest assured there will come a day when the dog decides, F*ck this, and goes Cujo on your butt. Did Saddam realy expect the people he has oppressed for 30 years to fight FOR him? LOL, man is he out of touch with reality.

 

[Michael]

I'm taking the news of an "uprising" with a huge grain of salt sicne this is the same area where the Republican Guard "commander" surrendered.

Michael

 

[Stark]

More on the bunkers from 60 minutes:

With U.S. intelligence on Iraq coming from electronic eavesdropping and satellite photography, Saddam decided to go underground, building elaborate bunker and tunnel complexes. A German firm designed and later built a 20,000-square-foot bunker under one of Saddam?s palaces, at a cost of $90 million. It has luxurious bedrooms for Saddam, his family, and dozens of bodyguards and staff. It?s stocked with enough food and water to last a year. Giant shock absorbers and redundant air filtration systems are designed to withstand multiple bomb blasts and missile strikes.

Michael Vickers, a consultant to the Pentagon who spent 10 years in the Army?s special forces and later became a C.I.A. operative, says there are "some very, very hardened, deep underground facilities that have 20 or more feet, maybe 100 feet in some cases, of dirt, and then 6 to 20 feet of reinforced concrete, and then prefabricated steel."

In some cases, Vickers says, the bunkers are 300 feet or so deep, and "almost impervious to anything but nuclear attack."

Worse, some of these bunkers may be connected by tunnels, allowing Saddam to move from underground facility to underground facility.

"One of the things that makes these underground structures difficult-is the labyrinth network of them," Vickers says. They have blast doors in between, too, so "even if you penetrate down into one compartment, say, and destroy that, then the steel doors may contain the effects of a blast. If you're on the other side you're a quarter mile away, you're perfectly safe."

The U.S. identified more than two dozen of these bunkers 12 years ago. There may be more now, and they may be located under schools, hospitals, even mosques - targets that the U.S. is not likely to bomb.

And, if and when U.S. forces finally take Baghdad, they won?t necessarily find maps and blueprints of the bunkers and tunnels, or even the engineers that designed them.

"When Saddam realizes you?re an engineer and you know too much about where he could hide, he?s going to have you killed," says Ibrahim al-Marashi.

CBS news

 

[da loser]

Originally posted by: burnedout
Just now heard Walter Rodgers' report from 3-7 CAV on CNN. Elements of that unit recently crossed the Euphrates river under fire. Heck of a report. Firefights all throughout the day yesterday. Got me all fired up. GO BIG GREEN MACHINE !

i watched that, man the camera man is an idiot. they were on a highway during the dust storm, so it was hard to tell where they were; then the camera man pans to highway signs as they pass by and zooms in on them, luckily they're barely discernable, so hopefully none of the iraqis know for sure where they are. plus the reporter almost told them where they crossed the euphrates i believe.

during the movement, people in farm land areas are taking pot shots at them, and "civilians" are driving on the road, saw a couple of buses as well as numerous cars. they stopped one truck which contained a large number of explosives, and took some pows.

i just had to laugh though when they had their vice-president come on, he said their shock and run strategy is not working, their bombs are just to make noise, they are filled with wood and nails... iraqis are resisting the forces, who is shocked now? where is the UN? they are useless, what good is a call for the end of aggressions after the aggressions have started? pure comedy gold, you have to admit, he's a good propaganda man.

also anyone actually know what the geneva convention shows on televising pows? seems cnn shows them, of course not in the way that iraqi tv does, but one of the defense is well cnn shows them as well, heard that on lebanese cable channel. i heard rumsfeld say it's illegal to show pows in a humiliating way, not sure what the definition is.