Officially undecided for POTUS

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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Two lousy options, but a vote for anyone but Trump at this point amounts to helping the hildebeast regime take power. No way. It's going to have to be a vote for Trump and hope that he's not as bad as hildebeast.
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
202
106
Two lousy options, but a vote for anyone but Trump at this point amounts to helping the hildebeast regime take power. No way. It's going to have to be a vote for Trump and hope that he's not as bad as hildebeast.

And the cycle continues.......
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
I don't think that is what he said.

Why are you consumed with the urge to twist everything someone says that doesn't agree with your liberal bias?

What is the source of this core belief that Hillary and Bill are the most corrupt, evil, lying politicians in history? I know that so much was built up decades ago via Newt's coalition through unfounded conspiracies and accusations that persisted well beyond investigations that turned up nothing.

This type of incessant and unfounded train of accusations is a well-publicized strategy championed by Newt, and it has survived despite any real factual basis. This has inculcated within the typical conservative mind the feeling that the mere presence of persistent accusations is evidence of truth alone.

I don't really like Hillary, but this core belief that she is a grand liar unique in our political history is pure delusional fantasy. Despite the legality and common nature of her and Bill's corporate speeches and fees, I do find these things distasteful for people in their position--but again, it is for whatever reason activity that no one--especially conservatives--hold against any other politician. I find her cold and distant, but that in no way disqualifies her from being president or from any of the positions under which she has served admirably. The major issue that I don't like about her candidacy is that I don't like this dynastic nature of the presidency--I thought Bill was great for the time, but I do not want another Clinton, I do not want another Bush--outside of policy, I simply don't want to see the presidency under the control of a very small handful of families. That is, in fact, my only real complaint against Hillary.

I see those issues in the words of "Hillary is a corrupt liar!" types of people because such people never have a foundation from which to base these beliefs. It is decades of brainwashing, because they will always point to tired old fantasy bullshit cooked up by a coalition that only ever cared about perception over substance. When one begins their defense of such beliefs with "whitewater" or "vince foster," you know the individual is mired in a "feelings" structure of facts being secondary to repeated accusations entirely void of substance. Weak-minded people are susceptible to such tactics.

Even the core of the republican party has publicly admitted that the Bengazi charges against her were nothing more than a political farce. But this little nugget festers in the contemporary conservative brain. Who cares if the accusations are a sham? They were made, and she's already had a history of accusations--therefore true!


Trump is a fascist. That is plain to anyone that is paying attention. Any support of Trump, for any reason whatsoever, is a clear endorsement of fascism. Period.

Even if Hillary were the evil god-hating liar that small-minded republicans believe her to be, that is no excuse for supporting fascism in the US. In a way, this is why Trump is the enema that the repub party needs--take the chaff out with him. Hopefully his disastrous candidacy will live on in book deals and re-education camps such that his acolytes can fully embrace the new order, leaving the repub party forever and disappearing into their own insignificant and properly marginalized communes in remote areas of Montana and Wyoming, taking pictures next to Trump cardboard cutouts over the next decade while shoveling piles of money into his coffers, promising to win back the country, again! some day....some day.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
If you are really that concerned, just remember we do elections every four years.

Who had the greatest risk to the downside? Clearly Trump IMO.

If he were to win, it's also likely the Senate and house remains GOP. He will have full license to move forward with the crazy shit he's proposed.

If Hill wins, at best the Senate flips over. House should remain GOP. That means nothing is getting done with out lots of compromise. Also means the GOP is smacked down and maybe they can rebuild for 2020. She must be on best behavior or she has no chance for reelection.

As far as CoC goes, would you honestly trust Trump with nukes? NATO? With Russia? Damn, even China and what's going on in the South China Sea?
Unfortunately I see little improvement in the ME with either one.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
Two lousy options, but a vote for anyone but Trump at this point amounts to helping the hildebeast regime take power. No way. It's going to have to be a vote for Trump and hope that he's not as bad as hildebeast.

Exactly how Mussolini and Hitler came to power. Good for you, little fascist shit stain.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
NO, NO, NO!!!! there is no candidate that HAS your vote until you give it to them in the booth. A vote for a green party can is just that a vote for that person, not a vote for the other candidate. This twisted way of thinking that a vote for Johnston is a vote for Clinton is nothing more than a scare tactic to keep people in line. Everyone that hates Clinton but still votes for her instead of voting their heart is EXACTLY what they want you to do. There has to come a time when you stop worrying about you don't like or want in the here-and-now and worry about the future. The reason both Clinton and Trump act the way they do is because they know when it comes time to bite the bullet Americans would rather bend over and take a big fat spiked one up their ass then do something that might be for the better good. It is the every people that guilt others into voting for one of the major two that is a huge part of the very problem they claim to despise.


To all those that are planning on staying home this election, PLEASE don't! If you hate the major two, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and vote a third party. Don't stay home and complain that there is no good candidate, DO something! In 2012 54.9% of those able to vote in the US did. If the other 45.1% voted for a 3rd party candidate would not have a Trump of Clinton in the White House. Don't be part of the problem be a part of the solution!

The only way to make a third party viable is by changing the fundamental way candidates are elected. Until you do that, voting for third party candidates is a waste of time and effort.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
Two lousy options, but a vote for anyone but Trump at this point amounts to helping the hildebeast regime take power. No way. It's going to have to be a vote for Trump and hope that he's not as bad as hildebeast.

So apparently in his foreign policy briefings Trump kept asking over and over why the US couldn't use nuclear weapons, saying something to the effect of 'we have them, why can't we use them??' If that report is true, would you maybe want to reconsider your choice?
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
202
106
What is the source of this core belief that Hillary and Bill are the most corrupt, evil, lying politicians in history? I know that so much was built up decades ago via Newt's coalition through unfounded conspiracies and accusations that persisted well beyond investigations that turned up nothing.

This type of incessant and unfounded train of accusations is a well-publicized strategy championed by Newt, and it has survived despite any real factual basis. This has inculcated within the typical conservative mind the feeling that the mere presence of persistent accusations is evidence of truth alone.

I don't really like Hillary, but this core belief that she is a grand liar unique in our political history is pure delusional fantasy. Despite the legality and common nature of her and Bill's corporate speeches and fees, I do find these things distasteful for people in their position--but again, it is for whatever reason activity that no one--especially conservatives--hold against any other politician. I find her cold and distant, but that in no way disqualifies her from being president or from any of the positions under which she has served admirably. The major issue that I don't like about her candidacy is that I don't like this dynastic nature of the presidency--I thought Bill was great for the time, but I do not want another Clinton, I do not want another Bush--outside of policy, I simply don't want to see the presidency under the control of a very small handful of families. That is, in fact, my only real complaint against Hillary.

I see those issues in the words of "Hillary is a corrupt liar!" types of people because such people never have a foundation from which to base these beliefs. It is decades of brainwashing, because they will always point to tired old fantasy bullshit cooked up by a coalition that only ever cared about perception over substance. When one begins their defense of such beliefs with "whitewater" or "vince foster," you know the individual is mired in a "feelings" structure of facts being secondary to repeated accusations entirely void of substance. Weak-minded people are susceptible to such tactics.

Even the core of the republican party has publicly admitted that the Bengazi charges against her were nothing more than a political farce. But this little nugget festers in the contemporary conservative brain. Who cares if the accusations are a sham? They were made, and she's already had a history of accusations--therefore true!


Trump is a fascist. That is plain to anyone that is paying attention. Any support of Trump, for any reason whatsoever, is a clear endorsement of fascism. Period.

Even if Hillary were the evil god-hating liar that small-minded republicans believe her to be, that is no excuse for supporting fascism in the US. In a way, this is why Trump is the enema that the repub party needs--take the chaff out with him. Hopefully his disastrous candidacy will live on in book deals and re-education camps such that his acolytes can fully embrace the new order, leaving the repub party forever and disappearing into their own insignificant and properly marginalized communes in remote areas of Montana and Wyoming, taking pictures next to Trump cardboard cutouts over the next decade while shoveling piles of money into his coffers, promising to win back the country, again! some day....some day.

You cannot believe she is an honest and truthful person? Ignoring everything for the last 2 decades and just looking at the last few months, exactly how many times has she lied just about the email issues? Ignore any legal issues with what she may have done or did not do, there is at least 5 or 6 things she lied about.
(1) Emails were used just to communicate with Bill. Bill does not use email.
(2) No marked as classified email ever when through her server. Several marked as
classified or higher were found.
(3) All email was turned over to those investigating. All of them were turned over, except for the 30000 she deleted.
(4)And when asked if she had permission to run her own server, she stated she asked and was given permission. That request was never submitted or granted.

That is just 4 outright bold faced lies about a simple thing that even you have to acknowledge. There is no dispute of these things, they are fact, not something made up by some back room group of "small-minded republicans bent on getting rid of Hillary. In my book when someone lies to you about something so simple to prove, they have and or will lie to you in the future.
 

echo4747

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2005
1,978
156
106
So apparently in his foreign policy briefings Trump kept asking over and over why the US couldn't use nuclear weapons, saying something to the effect of 'we have them, why can't we use them??' If that report is true, would you maybe want to reconsider your choice?
Are you really fearful that in the unlikely event Trump is elected pres, he would actually use nuclear weapons?
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
202
106
The only way to make a third party viable is by changing the fundamental way candidates are elected. Until you do that, voting for third party candidates is a waste of time and effort.

So your telling me that if the almost 45% of those that did not vote last election were to vote for either Stine or Johnston, we would still end up with a Clinton or Trump as Prez? Your math is a bit off there.

Stop requiring others to make a change for you and help to make the change for your self.
As my grandfather always said, shit in one hand and wish in the other and see what hand fills up first.
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
202
106
Are you really fearful that in the unlikely event Trump is elected pres, he would actually use nuclear weapons?


It matters more what the other nuclear powers think Trump will do and less what a few here think that is a larger concern.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
So your telling me that if the almost 45% of those that did not vote last election were to vote for either Stine or Johnston, we would still end up with a Clinton or Trump as Prez? Your math is a bit off there.

Stop requiring others to make a change for you and help to make the change for your self.
As my grandfather always said, shit in one hand and wish in the other and see what hand fills up first.

Exactly, you're wishing. This is a collective action problem where the incentives are aligned against you to an impossible extent. If all 45% dos suddenly decide to vote for a third party that would indeed change things. You have absolutely no way to harness people to do that though and you never will so long as our system remains winner take all.

People vote for the two parties because they are voting strategically. It isn't dumb of them to do, it's the undeniably smartest choice given the system of elections we have.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
Are you really fearful that in the unlikely event Trump is elected pres, he would actually use nuclear weapons?

Do you understand that even a modest increase in likelihood of that event is an insanely bad thing? If that report is true and he won, we would have a president that apparently doesn't understand why we can't start employing nuclear weapons more commonly.

That in and of itself should be immediately and totally disqualifying for any candidate. Period.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
Iran? (your thoughts on whether you believe we cut the best deal possible w/them)

The deal with Iran made a nuclear weapons release less likely, not more likely. I don't know what the best possible deal would have been with them but the deal we did cut was very positive for us.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,880
34,834
136
Are you really fearful that in the unlikely event Trump is elected pres, he would actually use nuclear weapons?

He stated as much previously. That he's even asking these questions should be extremely concerning to any rational person. We're leaving the realm of politics now for the land of simple self preservation.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
You cannot believe she is an honest and truthful person? Ignoring everything for the last 2 decades and just looking at the last few months, exactly how many times has she lied just about the email issues? Ignore any legal issues with what she may have done or did not do, there is at least 5 or 6 things she lied about.
(1) Emails were used just to communicate with Bill. Bill does not use email.
(2) No marked as classified email ever when through her server. Several marked as
classified or higher were found.
(3) All email was turned over to those investigating. All of them were turned over, except for the 30000 she deleted.
(4)And when asked if she had permission to run her own server, she stated she asked and was given permission. That request was never submitted or granted.

That is just 4 outright bold faced lies about a simple thing that even you have to acknowledge. There is no dispute of these things, they are fact, not something made up by some back room group of "small-minded republicans bent on getting rid of Hillary. In my book when someone lies to you about something so simple to prove, they have and or will lie to you in the future.

And the email thing still doesn't tip my "Oh, she's a secret anti-american agent!" meter that so many people want it to be. It strikes me as misguided and, only in retrospect, incompetent at many levels--the IT people that set it up and the advice that she may or may not have gotten that this was a good idea. Or if that was simply her intention all along.

Obviously she lied about points of this investigation. I don't see them as dangerous lies or any that point to an intentional attempt to cover-up some conspiracy that "surely must exist! because Hillary." Again, it stinks absence any other influence--but it reeks to the degree it does merely in concert with the decades of conservative brain-conditioning to scrutinize anything attached to Clinton.

She didn't turn in many of them because they were deleted--when were they deleted, these 30000 emails? At the moment they were supposed to be handed over, or over the course of her tenure as SoS?

My interpretation of the email thing is yet another situation that would just breeze on through the public not-give-a-shit meter were it anyone but the evil Hillary Clinton.
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
202
106
And the email thing still doesn't tip my "Oh, she's a secret anti-american agent!" meter that so many people want it to be. It strikes me as misguided and, only in retrospect, incompetent at many levels--the IT people that set it up and the advice that she may or may not have gotten that this was a good idea. Or if that was simply her intention all along.

Obviously she lied about points of this investigation. I don't see them as dangerous lies or any that point to an intentional attempt to cover-up some conspiracy that "surely must exist! because Hillary." Again, it stinks absence any other influence--but it reeks to the degree it does merely in concert with the decades of conservative brain-conditioning to scrutinize anything attached to Clinton.

She didn't turn in many of them because they were deleted--when were they deleted, these 30000 emails? At the moment they were supposed to be handed over, or over the course of her tenure as SoS?

My interpretation of the email thing is yet another situation that would just breeze on through the public not-give-a-shit meter were it anyone but the evil Hillary Clinton.


I really would love to know where you bought those rose colored glasses. You have your mind made up, that is clear. So long as you are OK with her lying, who am I to convince you otherwise. Enjoy the day!
 

echo4747

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2005
1,978
156
106
The deal with Iran made a nuclear weapons release less likely, not more likely. I don't know what the best possible deal would have been with them but the deal we did cut was very positive for us.

Time will tell.
 

TeeJay1952

Golden Member
May 28, 2004
1,540
191
106
Sounds like the Koch Bros after Carnegie course

Manifesto

PREAMBLE

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES

We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.

We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.

Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.

We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things, and hold that where governments exist, they must not violate the rights of any individual: namely, (1) the right to life—accordingly we support the prohibition of the initiation of physical force against others; (2) the right to liberty of speech and action—accordingly we oppose all attempts by government to abridge the freedom of speech and press, as well as government censorship in any form; and (3) the right to property—accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and must accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. Our support of an individual’s right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government.

1.1 Self-Ownership

Individuals own their bodies and have rights over them that other individuals, groups, and governments may not violate. Individuals have the freedom and responsibility to decide what they knowingly and voluntarily consume, and what risks they accept to their own health, finances, safety, or life.

1.2 Expression and Communication

We support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.

1.3 Privacy

Libertarians advocate individual privacy and government transparency. We are committed to ending government’s practice of spying on everyone. We support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, property, and communications. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should include records held by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records.

1.4 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.

1.5 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

1.6 Parental Rights

Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs. This statement shall not be construed to condone child abuse or neglect.

1.7 Crime and Justice

The prescribed role of government is to protect the rights of every individual including the right to life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited in their application to violations of the rights of others through force or fraud, or to deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Therefore, we favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes. We support restitution to the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. The constitutional rights of the criminally accused, including due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must be preserved. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.

1.8 Death Penalty

We oppose the administration of the death penalty by the state.

1.9 Self-Defense

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights—life, liberty, and justly acquired property—against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.

2.0 Economic Liberty

Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.

2.1 Property and Contract

As respect for property rights is fundamental to maintaining a free and prosperous society, it follows that the freedom to contract to obtain, retain, profit from, manage, or dispose of one’s property must also be upheld. Libertarians would free property owners from government restrictions on their rights to control and enjoy their property, as long as their choices do not harm or infringe on the rights of others. Eminent domain, civil asset forfeiture, governmental limits on profits, governmental production mandates, and governmental controls on prices of goods and services (including wages, rents, and interest) are abridgements of such fundamental rights. For voluntary dealings among private entities, parties should be free to choose with whom they trade and set whatever trade terms are mutually agreeable.

2.2 Environment

Competitive free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Governments are unaccountable for damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights and responsibilities regarding resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Where damages can be proven and quantified in a court of law, restitution to the injured parties must be required.

2.3 Energy and Resources

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.

2.4 Government Finance and Spending

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a “Balanced Budget Amendment” to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

2.5 Government Employees

We favor repealing any requirement that one must join or pay dues to a union as a condition of government employment. We advocate replacing defined-benefit pensions with defined-contribution plans, as are commonly offered in the private sector, so as not to impose debt on future generations without their consent.

2.6 Money and Financial Markets

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository institutions of all types. Markets are not actually free unless fraud is vigorously combated. Those who enjoy the possibility of profits must not impose risks of losses upon others, such as through government guarantees or bailouts. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and unconstitutional legal tender laws.

2.7 Marketplace Freedom

Libertarians support free markets. We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of entities based on voluntary association. We oppose all forms of government subsidies and bailouts to business, labor, or any other special interest. Government should not compete with private enterprise.

2.8 Labor Markets

Employment and compensation agreements between private employers and employees are outside the scope of government, and these contracts should not be encumbered by government-mandated benefits or social engineering. We support the right of private employers and employees to choose whether or not to bargain with each other through a labor union. Bargaining should be free of government interference, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

2.9 Education

Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we would restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children’s education.

2.10 Health Care

We favor a free-market health care system. We recognize the freedom of individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want (if any), the level of health care they want, the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health insurance across state lines.

2.11 Retirement and Income Security

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

3.0 Securing Liberty

The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

3.2 Internal Security and Individual Rights

The defense of the country requires that we have adequate intelligence to detect and to counter threats to domestic security. This requirement must not take priority over maintaining the civil liberties of our citizens. The Constitution and Bill of Rights shall not be suspended even during time of war. Intelligence agencies that legitimately seek to preserve the security of the nation must be subject to oversight and transparency. We oppose the government’s use of secret classifications to keep from the public information that it should have, especially that which shows that the government has violated the law.

3.3 International Affairs

American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention, including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by political or revolutionary groups.

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.

3.5 Rights and Discrimination

Libertarians embrace the concept that all people are born with certain inherent rights. We reject the idea that a natural right can ever impose an obligation upon others to fulfill that “right.” We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should neither deny nor abridge any individual’s human right based upon sex, wealth, ethnicity, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Members of private organizations retain their rights to set whatever standards of association they deem appropriate, and individuals are free to respond with ostracism, boycotts and other free-market solutions.

3.6 Representative Government

We support election systems that are more representative of the electorate at the federal, state and local levels. As private voluntary groups, political parties should be free to establish their own rules for nomination procedures, primaries and conventions. We call for an end to any tax-financed subsidies to candidates or parties and the repeal of all laws which restrict voluntary financing of election campaigns. We oppose laws that effectively exclude alternative candidates and parties, deny ballot access, gerrymander districts, or deny the voters their right to consider all legitimate alternatives. We advocate initiative, referendum, recall and repeal when used as popular checks on government.

3.7 Self-Determination

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of individual liberty, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to agree to such new governance as to them shall seem most likely to protect their liberty.

4.0 Omissions

Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should not be construed to imply approval.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
Exactly, you're wishing. This is a collective action problem where the incentives are aligned against you to an impossible extent. If all 45% dos suddenly decide to vote for a third party that would indeed change things. You have absolutely no way to harness people to do that though and you never will so long as our system remains winner take all.

People vote for the two parties because they are voting strategically. It isn't dumb of them to do, it's the undeniably smartest choice given the system of elections we have.

I am not sure that 45% support of a third party is really possible these days. What would most likely happen is that if you start approaching the 20-30% range in actual election day votes (I think Perot achieved somewhere around 10% of the votes?), both parties would look towards that party's platform and start to cannibalize the more popular policies and win over those party voters for the next round, shifting the major party platforms into something (hopefully) more pragmatic. Still, that should have great value for our system.

But this is actually what happened to Perot during the campaign--At one point, he was polling ~35% early on and both Clinton and Bush started adopting his policies to siphon away voters.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
I really would love to know where you bought those rose colored glasses. You have your mind made up, that is clear. So long as you are OK with her lying, who am I to convince you otherwise. Enjoy the day!

And you have your mind made up. Who am I to convince you? Until you can definitively show me a ream of real evidence that can convince me otherwise, I will continue to know that I remain far more objective about these things than you do.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
"I despise this woman because decades of unfounded and repeated charges against her and her husband's character spearheaded by butthurt republican children have eventually convinced me that the mere persistence of such spurious charges is evidence of truth. Therefore, I choose fascism."

Sounds about right.

It must be nice living in your alternate reality where everyone basically agrees with Democratic policies but just don't want to vote for Hillary because she's a woman or Obama because he's black. It just allows you to turn your mind off and stop thinking about reasons why your policy positions are good or people should vote for your candidate and frees you to just use the reptilian part of your brain to attack the opposition.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Exactly how Mussolini and Hitler came to power. Good for you, little fascist shit stain.

Lol, I knew it wouldn't take long before some stupid idiot would bring Hitler into the discussion. You fit the bill, congrats!
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Lol, I knew it wouldn't take long before some stupid idiot would bring Hitler into the discussion. You fit the bill, congrats!

To him, someone who would enforce immigration laws and reduce welfare is worse than Hitler. Invading Poland is peanuts compared to things like the possible repeal of Obamacare or other pet Democratic projects.
 
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